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  1. #1

    Smile DDOGamer: Crowdsourcing the Best Class For Soloing

    Yesterday, I took a stab at quantifying the "best" class for soloing. Some of you disagreed with my analysis.

    -> Fair enough. Let's figure it out together

  2. #2
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geoffhanna View Post
    Yesterday, I took a stab at quantifying the "best" class for soloing. Some of you disagreed with my analysis.

    -> Fair enough. Let's figure it out together
    Amusing response to that thread ;-)

    One thing to consider, that a straight-six poll won't catch, is the weighting of the various pieces. Locks and Traps are often optional, etc.
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

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    The Hatchery Wipey's Avatar
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    You are having too much fun with those polls, stop immediately.
    sorc
    sorc
    sorc
    monk
    rogue
    rogue
    Shahang Nezhat Bellezza Wipekin Farida of Ghallanda

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    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geoffhanna View Post
    Yesterday, I took a stab at quantifying the "best" class for soloing. Some of you disagreed with my analysis.
    If by "analysis" you mean "pulling something completely farcical out of a random orifice" then yes, we disagreed with everything you posted.

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    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    There's also a lot of variables to consider. I think you are looking to rank overall classes that can solo content.

    Things to weigh in:

    1. Player skill

    2. Not all quests are the same

    3. Stat allocation/gear/enhancements/EDs. In other words, build

    4. Build/FOTM/cookie cutter

    Self sufficient builds will always have an edge over other classes. Reason why many mixed builds are able to solo easier than others is because they usually have self sufficiency built into them, or already part of the class and evasion. Because of this, you can't pick one class over another. If it was a few years ago when pure or mostly pure classes were common, than your poll would work better.

  6. #6

    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    If by "analysis" you mean "pulling something completely farcical out of a random orifice" then yes, we disagreed with everything you posted.
    I would find it far more disconcerting if someone named "teh_troll" agreed with me.

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    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    If by "analysis" you mean "pulling something completely farcical out of a random orifice" then yes, we disagreed with everything you posted.
    This thread is done - Troll Wins again.

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    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    This thread is done - Troll Wins again.
    How is this different from any other thread?

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    Quote Originally Posted by geoffhanna View Post
    Yesterday, I took a stab at quantifying the "best" class for soloing. Some of you disagreed with my analysis.

    -> Fair enough. Let's figure it out together
    I think you should be more specific with your question. Is it:

    1. the best general class for a new player that wants to mostly play solo
    2. the best class for the elite hardcore player to "solo" endgame and other tough content and post on the achievements section how awesome they are

    I think the original post was fairly accurate if you are talking about #1. For example, I like to mostly solo play and I don't want to miss chests and stuff. So most of my builds include rogue and some sort of plan for self-healing. But my builds aren't necessarily designed for completing all (or pretty much any) epic elite quests solo.

    Most people that complained about where you ranked wiz/sorc for example, are thinking more in terms of #2. These classes are not solo friendly for a first time player with poor loot, no past lifes, etc.... However, they are extremely powerful in the hands of the experienced loot-maxed completionist type.
    Thelanis:
    Annikka (Sorc), Dannikka (F), Jannikka (Rgr)
    Tamikka (Bard), Famikka (Rgr)
    Bellynda (Cl), Mellynda (M)

  10. #10
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobbinB View Post
    I think you should be more specific with your question. Is it:

    1. the best general class for a new player that wants to mostly play solo
    2. the best class for the elite hardcore player to "solo" endgame and other tough content and post on the achievements section how awesome they are

    I think the original post was fairly accurate if you are talking about #1. For example, I like to mostly solo play and I don't want to miss chests and stuff. So most of my builds include rogue and some sort of plan for self-healing. But my builds aren't necessarily designed for completing all (or pretty much any) epic elite quests solo.

    Most people that complained about where you ranked wiz/sorc for example, are thinking more in terms of #2. These classes are not solo friendly for a first time player with poor loot, no past lifes, etc.... However, they are extremely powerful in the hands of the experienced loot-maxed completionist type.
    Unfortunately the outright best solo friendly pure class for a Newbie is Artificer {And no you don't need to be a Warforged OR Have that Completely Worthless waste of a feat slot feat - Construct what'sitcalled!}.

    Whereas the OP has Placed Druid {a truly awful class for a newbie} at the top.

    I've never been shy about the fact that I feel Wiz is harder to solo with on a 1st life than these forums make out BUT there's also no way on Earth It'd be in my Bottom 4 {and yet again - No Warforged!}.

    Considering a Newbie is also most likely going to be making use of a Hireling - Pure Fighter wouldn't be in my bottom 2 either - In fact it would be closer to the top than the bottom thanks to all those lovely feats!


    My Personal List from Experience of Soloing Heroics on Every Single One up to Lvl 13 at Least {NOT Every Single Quest and certainly NOT Raids!}:

    Artificer - The Perfect Learning Tool for DDO - Now if only they were F2P.
    Paladin - Drastic drop in efficiency after Lvl 16 - Have Soloed with Hire to 20!
    Cleric - With DV Hire always on hand
    Fighter - Pure Stalwart or Kensai it does not matter - Both are Fine.
    Rogue - Acrobat, Mech {I don't play Assassins} - Can be squishy but again would assume Hireling on Hand.
    Ranger - Not my class - Took me ages to even roll one - Would prob be higher if I actually wanted to play said class.
    Monk - Slow starter but so easy to play at higher levels.
    Wizard - Have reached 18 mainly solo with minimum gearing - Find at the higher levels becomes unplayable until fully geared {catch 22}.
    Bard - Another Slow Starter
    FavSoul - Haven't got a Pure past Lvl 13 yet {incl. my Completionist Wannabe who's stuck at Lvl 7 on his FvS Life}.
    Barbarian - PURE? Heck No! - I simply can't stop myself from adding Fighter Levels for Feats!

    I'm afraid I can't even put Druid or Sorc on this list as both are Terrible!


    If you're gonna go into Epics then you're not really a Newbie any more and hopefully you know you're class well enough to manage - If not you can always TR at 20.


    As for Iconics - I haven't spent all that much time on them but on 1st impressions:

    Morninglord and Bladeforged are fine
    PDK Stalwart is Superb!
    Shadar-Kai - I don't play Assassins or Ninjas so no comment.
    Last edited by FranOhmsford; 11-08-2013 at 01:45 PM.

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    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    The answer to the question is the same as asking where does my 95 year old grand-mother take a dump?

    Answer: depends.

    The first clarification is this: What are you soloing?

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    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    The first clarification is this: What are you soloing?
    Aye:

    Assuming 1st Life Newbie without Twink gear etc.

    Example 1 - Necro 2 - 4 Flags + Shadow Crypt {all things being equal}:

    Cleric Wins outright.
    Sorc and Wizard are next in line

    Have Fun on your Rogue Mech or Assassin though.

    Example 2 - Restless Isles -incl Hiding in Plain Sight but not Twilight Forge:

    Artificer and Rogue are without doubt #1 in this content.
    Monk comes in 3rd.

    Cleric is nowhere.

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    Community Member DrNuegebauer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    The answer to the question is the same as asking where does my 95 year old grand-mother take a dump?

    Answer: depends.

    The first clarification is this: What are you soloing?
    I'm confused - the answer to the question of where your grandmother takes a dump is: "WF arcane"??

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    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNuegebauer View Post
    I'm confused - the answer to the question of where your grandmother takes a dump is: "WF arcane"??
    Well . . . if that's what it takes to give WF a purpose then so be it.

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    Community Member schelsullivan's Avatar
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    Due to work and home life I've tend to solo a lot in the 4 years I've been playing. My toons (im currently playing) in order of most soloable with short explanation.

    Lev28 Elf Ranger 3rd life. = The best and most fun. Sneaky, CC with Pin, Ottos, huge DPS burst with Fury Shot. 1st life was weak, 2nd had good gear, Enhancement pass really boosted him this last life. Twisted Cocoon for heals. Soloing EE contented reliably.

    lev 18 Warforged Juggernaught build 2nd life (first was barb, sucked) = got that classic jugg build of the forum and they are a power house for soloing. DPS, Heals, Traps. Chewed through heroic elites NP. Just havent played him since the enhancement pass, loving my ranger too much right now, but will get him back in the game soon.

    Lev26 Human Sorc 2nd life. = Real glass cannon type of toon, 1st life was all about spell point management strategies. 2nd life is geared up +600HP and +4000 spell points. Scroll healing is a bit slow, probably go warforged next life for better self healing. Tried some EE soloing but found it a bit frustrating after the ease my ranger has.

    Lev24 Human Bard18/Fighter2. = Great self buffing and healing, descent melee DPS, weaker CC that other bards ive seen. Not really reworked him since enhancement pass. Not enough DPS for EE soloing yet.

    Lev24 Human Monk 1st life= Monks are bad asses, I get top kills often when I pug, He doesnt solo all that well though. wasnt really planned out, just started the monk to see what it was like. Probably will TR into monk again and look up more skillfully designed build to follow.
    Argonnessen - Glibb Bonefish, Lev 28 pure Elf Ranger

  16. #16
    Hatchery Hero BOgre's Avatar
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    IMO, it probably doesn't make much sense trying to figure out a best Class for soloing. DDO is all about character customization, which makes the idea of 'Class' completely irrelevant. Even pure class toons will vary widely from one build to the next. And added to that is the disparity between Heroic levels and Epic, between normal/hard difficulties and elite. Between 1st life builds and multi-TRs.

    The only thing germane to say about Soloing DDO is that your build of choice will need relevant DPS, some form of damage mitigation, and some form of self healing. Every class in the game can be built to those specs, and so all of them have the potential to be good Soloists.

    That being said, it's pretty standard to see speed-TR'ers using the 1Rog/14Sorc/5{TRClass} plus LR+5 formula, which suggests that Sorcerer is the default leader in trivializing Heroic Content for a fast TR. We've yet to see which build will shine through for speed ER/IR zergs, but I suspect it won't take long after U20 drops. I expect we'll see some clear winners no more than a week after launch.
    Quote Originally Posted by Towrn
    ...when the worst thing that happens when you make a mistake at your job is someone complains on the internet, you probably care a little less!

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    Geoff, I believe that, by setting the bar too wide, you've shot yourself in the foot. That is: by attempting to define the best solo class without taking into consideration any limitation, you've invited controversy.

    I see this endeavor, and it reminds me of the Tier system for classes (using the WotC forums version, since it's spread to virtually all known tabletop gaming forums sans /tg/ in 4chan and The Gaming Den); the system is delimited deliberately so that it considers the class' potential, rather than the build potential.

    Thus, I'd suggest going with a format much like the Tier system, considering that some of the factors change. Like in tabletop, the power of a class or build largely depends on the player's skill and the content you're playing, but if you delimit it to the bare basics, about the only thing DDO classes would differ from their tabletop counterparts if using the same system is the concept of Enhancements. Note that the Tier system deliberately nixes multiclassing, gear is inacceptable to define class power (because, technically, everyone has a chance of using it and drawing the same power, with clear exceptions like the Holy Avenger), and because the level of optimization is always constant (it's assumed that you always have the same degree of optimization.

    Using Qhualor's post, I'll attempt to explain what would be a better way to handle a "best class for soloing" examination method.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    There's also a lot of variables to consider. I think you are looking to rank overall classes that can solo content.

    Things to weigh in:

    1. Player skill

    2. Not all quests are the same

    3. Stat allocation/gear/enhancements/EDs. In other words, build

    4. Build/FOTM/cookie cutter

    Self sufficient builds will always have an edge over other classes. Reason why many mixed builds are able to solo easier than others is because they usually have self sufficiency built into them, or already part of the class and evasion. Because of this, you can't pick one class over another. If it was a few years ago when pure or mostly pure classes were common, than your poll would work better.
    The first argument, if using the same limits as the Tier system, implies that the player's skill* is not constant. As explained on the Tier system, the need of a qualitative "constant" is required since a newb playing a Tier 1 class (Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Artificer; note that I'm using the tabletop tiers) will not play the class at the same efficiency as a vastly experienced player using a Tier 5 class (Fighter, Paladin, Monk; again, the tabletop versions). Thus, to answer the first argument, you have to define "player skill" as a "constant"; either all test players are newbs, or all test players are hardcore. I presume you were aiming for the same idea, but neglected to present it.

    The second argument, through the lens of the Tier system, implies optimizing for a specific quest, rather than optimizing for all content. The tabletop version of the game has something similar; it's not the same to build for a typical campaign world than to build for, say, Return to the Tomb of Horrors (survival, survival, survival! And wits!), Expedition to Castle Ravenloft (most enemies will be undead; ergo, you want to specialize against undead), Expedition to the Demonweb Pits (you can expect most enemies to be Servants of Lolth, so you'll build accordingly), or Red Hand of Doom (which is almost like preparing for a campaign world, but with some delimitations that would invite for exploits). The Tier system doesn't have a parameter for that (well...actually it has, but it's not what you'd expect), but when you're working with builds, you usually use the Same Game Test, which pits your build or class against a range of encounters, varying from easy to specialized to hard, that you could reasonably expect at the defined levels (5, 10, 15). This enables to standardize the content, as you'd have a variety of opponents to face, hazards to handle, and tests to surpass. Your Tier (or rather, balance point; an efficient way to handle homebrewed content power compared to existing content) is defined by how many successes you acquire on the test. Thus, the second argument would require a standardized content, particularly since you're aiming to measure the class' capability for solo-ing overall, rather than the efficiency of a build on specific content.

    The third argument requires you to define the power of a character by means of its gear. The Tier system ignores this, because magic items can alter the balance of power in a build but don't define its core power. To put it in perspective: a Fighter can self-heal reliably (Silver Flame pots + healing amp enhancements/items pre-Epic, Regeneration Cocoon post-Epic, and UMD for scrolls of Heal), but it depends on items, unlike the Cleric who actually has the Heal spell and the enhancements to power it up. If looked at through the lens of the Tier system, the Fighter has NO capability to self-heal, because you're either using items or cross-class abilities that require some sort of modification to succeed. Enhancements, though, throws a wrench in the works: your choice of Enhancements will define the power of a build, because of the point limitation. However, and I find this important: player skill (or rather, player system mastery, which is a component of player skill) accounts for choice of Enhancements. A newbie player won't have good grasp of which Enhancements to get, and thus will choose them on the fly; meanwhile, the experienced player min-maxes every single point to draw the most, whether multiclassing or mono-classing. As for stat allocation, it's always assumed as a constant (you always use the same point-buy), with the actual allocation defined as player skill (or a component of it; again, player system mastery). Therefore, for a more standardized test, you ignore the effect of magic items on a character, while defining stat allocation and Enhancements as part of the same qualitative "constant" defined as "player skill", which would be the realm of the first argument: after all, if you define player system mastery as a function of player skill, no matter how cookie-cutter your build is, the newbie player won't compare with the experienced one, even if using the same build and the same items; however, their overall "soloing capacity" would be VERY close, enough to measure the quality of the player's skills. Likewise, if you make player skill a constant, you can expect a similar degree of player system mastery.

    The fourth argument is a repeat of the third, to an extent: essentially, aside from player skill and played content, it defines build as the most essential aspect. Again: the Tier system doesn't measure the power of a build, but rather the class itself.

    Therefore, by delimiting the nature of the build, you can define the aspect you were looking for: how efficient is a class capable of soloing only by virtue of its class features and Enhancements, all other things constant. Otherwise, you'll have to take in consideration the effect of races (note how classes that would otherwise be incapable of self-healing, like the Sorcerer, suddenly become capable of decent self-healing via the Warforged, or how Pale Master grants a degree of self-healing on a class that would otherwise be incapable of doing so), magic items and player skill, and hence you'd be measuring which is the best build, not the best class. Using tabletop terms, it would be the rough equivalent of measuring the soloing capacity of a 20th level Wizard against a 20th level Paladin, a Sorcadin (Sorc 4/Pal 2/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8), an early-entry Mystic Theurge (Illumian Wizard 1/Cleric 1 with the Krau sigil; might be wrong on this one), an Ultimate Magus geared for Elven Generalist Wizardry...you get the idea. None of these define the power of a class aside from the 20th level Wizard/20th level Paladin comparison; all define the power of a build, and with enough system mastery pushed in (say, an A-Game Paladin with twinked gear), you can reach pretty high.

    I would suggest a third test, measured by what the class actually offers, instead of what you can add to the class or how well you can work it so that it surpasses its limitations, meant to run against virtually all kinds of content. You might see the phenomenon usually observed; most classes on Epic game content are usually casters, with the rare melee characters usually twinked to cover for what their class innately lacks (particularly on the concept of Epic Destinies, but that's an entirely different matter). The test would measure the solo-ing efficiency of a class, mono-classing, with the specific delimitations of player skill and player system mastery as a constant, meant to run at all content, no item twinking (under those rules, would a Cleric fare equally well on Necro 3-4 than on Shroud, or Gianthold, or DQ?). That way, once that's defined, you can cover all other aspects separately (best items overall, for example).

    Regarding multi-classing: the Tier system FAQ implies that the result of a multiclassed build will generally behave with the same efficiency as the class with the highest Tier (if optimized) or a mix of both (if average), but this breaks with the field of "same optimization level". It forcefully introduces player system mastery (and by definition, player skill) into the mix.

    *: "Player skill" has to be better defined. IMO, "player skill" is a combination of the player's system mastery (the degree to which the player knows how all abilities work, when they have to be taken, when they become obsolete, the utility of the class' abilities...in short, how a player uses the resources given), the player's reflexes (how it moves, dodges, times its attacks or DoTs towards maximum efficiency rather than just stand there and shoot, its ability to kite...in essence, how the player controls its character) and the player's experience (a player who usually games around the range of 1-4 won't be the same as one who has multiple Raids under its belt; both may have played the same amount of time, but both will experience a vastly different amount of content. That doesn't mean the player who has mostly gamed 1-4 content is a n00b or something; in higher-tier content, the player will be inexperienced, whereas in low-level content the player may outplay just about anybody regardless of skill). As you can see, player system mastery involves your build knowledge (and just how well you can deviate from the cookie-cutter builds without reducing the build's overall effectiveness), your item knowledge and to an extent even your content knowledge (when you factor in the knowledge of the "no-fail" limits). Player reflexes involves just how well you can handle raid bosses and environmental hazards (like, say, Necro 4's ice islands?). Player experience, on the other hand, clearly involves content knowledge. Player skill is placed as the most important if only because it's the variable that, after all, completely changes the discussion. However, if you are to work out the content in terms of classes, it's best to define the efficiency of a class rather than the player's skill, as otherwise you're forced to pad your limitations rather than solve them.

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