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  1. #1
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    Default Different "races" in DDO with bonuses/penalites is it racist?

    Orcs, Elves, Humans are same species. Proof? They can mate with each other and produce off-spring. Half-elves, half-orcs.

    From Wiki: "A species is often defined as a group of organisms capable of interbreeding and producing fertile offspring".

    So we have within same (same) combined specie of Humans-Orcs-Elves some groups, which are called "race" (which is already troubling since "Although still used in general contexts, race has often been replaced by other words which are less ambiguous and emotionally charged, such as populations, people(s), ethnic groups, or communities, depending on context" from Wiki).

    Going further, from science viewpoint telling that "race" (or more politically-correct: ethnic group) Half-Orcs have more Str and less Int then people of Elvish origin, is like saying - for example - that Afroafricans have more Str and less Int then for example people of Jewish origin. (Since all of this ethnic groups belong to same specie, Afroafricans and Jews to Humans and Orcs-Elves-Humans to same specie, example is correct).

    Of cause, some can argue that there can be high Int and low Str Half-orc, same as can be high Str and low Int half-Elf.
    Problem that as whole typical HO would still be stronger then typical HE. And second problem is that from birth some ethnic group have some advantages/disadvantages which contradict "all groups are equal in everything" axiom.

    Is it troubling for you?

  2. #2
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    Personally, I don't find actually acknowledging that people who share very similar genetic make ups also share the traits those genes convey IRL, despite how offending some find that simple fact. In a fantasy game, it isn't even on my radar.

  3. #3
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    Also since Orcs belong to same specie as Ebberon humans, they should have same rights, including voting rights.

    Since we see much more Orcs in game than Humans (harbour + marketplace combined have definitely less Humans then 1 lair of Orcs in GH) why Humans rule Stormreach at first place? Despite being minority, at least how it is portrayed in game.


    And looking further: http://eberron.wikia.com/wiki/Stormreach
    "Leadership
    Despite ousting a large majority of the pirates and smugglers, a few powerful smugglers, called Coin Lords, took advantage of the reduction in competition and became the first leaders of Stormreach. Their descendents continue to govern over Stormreach to this day. Currently, Stormreach is governed by five hereditary nobles."

    Looks like Stormreach is ruled by anti-democratic (and corrupt, seeing how many mentions of "bribing guards" we see) regime.


    edit: to Gremmlyn, about "its just a game"

    http://www.theguardian.com/media/200...newmedia.games
    Last edited by Kir1; 11-08-2013 at 04:19 AM.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kir1 View Post
    Orcs, Elves, Humans are same species. Proof? They can mate with each other and produce off-spring. Half-elves, half-orcs.
    Heard of Mules, Tigons and Zebroids. Producing offspring after mating is not proof of being the same species.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kir1 View Post
    Looks like Stormreach is ruled by anti-democratic (and corrupt, seeing how many mentions of "bribing guards" we see) regime.
    What ever gave you the idea that Stormreach was a democracy? It's not even about race, it's the strong doing as they will, while the weak endure what they must.


    edit: to Gremmlyn, about "its just a game"
    Not what I said. I refruted your misconception that all are equal, even if real life. So why should it bother me if a game follows how things are, opposed to how many wish they were?

  6. #6
    Community Member Ausdoerrt's Avatar
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    Why again did you expect freedom, democracy, and equality in a medieval fantasy setting? I mean, forget that it doesn't even really exist IRL...
    "People are stupid; given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. ... People's heads are full of knowledge, facts, and beliefs, and most of it is false, yet they think it all true." Terry Goodkind

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kir1 View Post
    And second problem is that from birth some ethnic group have some advantages/disadvantages which contradict "all groups are equal in everything" axiom.
    The problem is that the "all groups are equal in everything" axiom isn't based on anything in the real world. It is politically-correct wishful thinking. The ensuing angst and controversy arises from desperately trying to warp reality to fit the pre-conceived Unquestioned Answer that has been chosen to represent it.

  8. #8
    Community Member Gauthaag's Avatar
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    please please dont tell him that such thing like half dragons, halffiends, planetouched etc exist, or OP start to insist dragons are same race as humans as well as devils and thus either humankind shoud be as strong as dragons or devils and vice versa

  9. #9
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    Humanoid interbreeding in Dungeons and Dragons isn't based on any real-world biology that I'm familiar with, so it would be misleading to use the term "species" in its technical sense. It's tempting, because humans and orcs can breed and produce viable offspring, and so can humans and elves, but orcs and elves cannot (at least not outside of obscure splatbooks I haven't read) and that makes for a major distinction. The details on how it works for humans and elves are also not complaint with real world genetics... in generic D&D you're either a half-elf, an elf, or a human and if there isn't a full elf reasonably proximate in your geneology then human it is, no different from any other full human, even if both of your parents were half-elves. Eberron is an exception to this rule, because Eberron half-elves are a fully developed people in their own right with their own bloodlines and dragonmarks and they do "breed true": the default position is that an Eberron half-elf is descended from half-elves, and not the result of a dalliance between a human and an elf, as you would expect in most other settings.

    Then there's Dark Sun, where humans and dwarves can breed to create Mul. I think they're sterile, though. They also have Half-Giants.

    This is all tangential to your main point about political correctness, but hey... you press the geek button, you get the geek knowledge.

  10. #10
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    WHY IN THE NAME OF THE DARK SIX IS NOBODY SPEAKING FOR THE KOBOLDS???

    Seriously guys, we spend early levels committing what is essentially a kobold genocide, and then when we get to house C challenges or crystal cove time comes along, we basically exploit them for slave labour. Sure, they have a "union"...a union that condones work that causes crippling back problems at best, and horrible undead/extraplanar/animal mauling death at worst. Sometimes you can even hear them, when they're running around with 4 barrels, each one the size of the kobold itself strapped to their backs, say , "Kobold remember the Waterworks..." Just heartbreaking.

    Finally, they manage to find a young dragon to lead them so they can carve out their little niche in the world (which, by the way, isn't even that close to Stormreach) so they can live free, and we go and destroy them and steal all their stuff. I can't help but feel bad for the little guys.

    So if we're talking racism in DDO, you better believe that the kobolds have the short end of that stick.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gauthaag View Post
    please please dont tell him that such thing like half dragons, halffiends, planetouched etc exist, or OP start to insist dragons are same race as humans as well as devils and thus either humankind shoud be as strong as dragons or devils and vice versa
    For the record, quite a few of them ARE, if not stronger. In DDO, at least.

  12. #12
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    I've never seen a Three-Quarters Orc, or an Eighth Elf, so I'm going to assume that half-bred Humanoids cannot have viable offspring

    That being said, the Biological Species Concept is not the only definition of a species, nor is it always applicable. Morphological or Phylogenetic species concept would seem to apply much more readily to Eberron sentient taxonomy.

  13. #13
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Jimmy the Greek says it's not racist, and that's good enough for me.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    I've never seen a Three-Quarters Orc, or an Eighth Elf, so I'm going to assume that half-bred Humanoids cannot have viable offspring
    Ever heard of Three-Quarters AfroAfrican or Eighth Arab?

    Quote Originally Posted by rayworks View Post
    I never heard of a quarter-orc or quarter-elf.
    http://eberronunlimited.wikidot.com/flaw:quarter-elf

    edit

    Quote Originally Posted by rayworks View Post
    Different races do have different physical and mental capabilities/attributes.
    I cant even express in words how much i disagree with this.
    Last edited by Kir1; 11-08-2013 at 06:13 AM.

  15. #15

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    it's not. some of your comments are, but races in ddo and related boni/mali are not.
    Last edited by morkahn82; 11-08-2013 at 06:27 AM.

  16. #16
    Community Member Ykt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kir1 View Post
    Orcs, Elves, Humans are same species. Proof? They can mate with each other and produce off-spring. Half-elves, half-orcs.

    From Wiki: "A species is often defined as a group of organisms capable of interbreeding and producing fertile offspring".

    So we have within same (same) combined specie of Humans-Orcs-Elves some groups, which are called "race" (which is already troubling since "Although still used in general contexts, race has often been replaced by other words which are less ambiguous and emotionally charged, such as populations, people(s), ethnic groups, or communities, depending on context" from Wiki).

    Going further, from science viewpoint telling that "race" (or more politically-correct: ethnic group) Half-Orcs have more Str and less Int then people of Elvish origin, is like saying - for example - that Afroafricans have more Str and less Int then for example people of Jewish origin. (Since all of this ethnic groups belong to same specie, Afroafricans and Jews to Humans and Orcs-Elves-Humans to same specie, example is correct).

    Of cause, some can argue that there can be high Int and low Str Half-orc, same as can be high Str and low Int half-Elf.
    Problem that as whole typical HO would still be stronger then typical HE. And second problem is that from birth some ethnic group have some advantages/disadvantages which contradict "all groups are equal in everything" axiom.

    Is it troubling for you?
    You quote the wiki definition of "species" ... what about "racism"?

  17. #17
    Bwest Fwiends Memnir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kir1 View Post
    Is it troubling for you?
    Nope.
    53461

  18. #18
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    People are not equal. There are lots of people stronger, smarter, faster and better looking than me. There are also a lot of people who are worse off. People from different parts of the world are adapted to different environments, and are not "equal" at everything. Nor are they better or worse in general, just different. Anybody believing anything else is a fool.
    Dystopia = utopia achieved

  19. #19
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    In a campaign based in Ancient Greece...

    You could give +2 to a physical stat to those from Sparta due to the rigorous physical training people receive in a military colony, and +2 to a mental stat to those coming from Athens, the artistic cultural and intellectual mecca of its day.

    Same species, same race, etc...the upbringing has more to do with it.
    Last edited by Chai; 11-08-2013 at 07:03 AM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  20. #20
    Community Member kned225's Avatar
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    Of course ddo is racist. I thought thats why most of us played..

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