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  1. #81
    Community Member DrawingGuy's Avatar
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    While my build and gear is quite different from yours, I plan on dropping my OC and bringing in more meta magics. You're right in that the feat cost is NOT worth the small DPS gain... especially since I rarely find myself meleeing.

    I do, however, want to debate with you the merits of going 10 Monk / 6 Ranger / 4 Pally with you.

    By dropping 2 Monk, you lose:
    - 5% Move Speed
    - 3 AC
    - Abundant Step
    - 1 feat slot (Master of Forms)
    - Natural Poison Immunity (which means pretty much nothing late game)

    With 2 more Pally, you gain:
    - Turn Undead, freeing a Twist
    - Empower Heal option
    - Disease immunity
    - Fear Immunity

    The loss of Master of Forms basically translates into the loss of Grandmaster of Forms... not a huge deal, though non-completionists can still get both easily. Really, the only big hit I see is Abundant Step. But losing that you gain more powerful heals, the ability to slot Pin/Flowers/Cocoon without losing DM, along with gaining some useful, if minor, immunities; making Epic Fort not as big a loss to get Blinding Speed or Epic Reflexes.

    Thoughts?

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    Undermine Zerger Knight_slayer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrawingGuy View Post
    While my build and gear is quite different from yours, I plan on dropping my OC and bringing in more meta magics. You're right in that the feat cost is NOT worth the small DPS gain... especially since I rarely find myself meleeing.

    I do, however, want to debate with you the merits of going 10 Monk / 6 Ranger / 4 Pally with you.

    By dropping 2 Monk, you lose:
    - 5% Move Speed
    - 3 AC
    - Abundant Step
    - 1 feat slot (Master of Forms)
    - Natural Poison Immunity (which means pretty much nothing late game)

    With 2 more Pally, you gain:
    - Turn Undead, freeing a Twist
    - Empower Heal option
    - Disease immunity
    - Fear Immunity

    The loss of Master of Forms basically translates into the loss of Grandmaster of Forms... not a huge deal, though non-completionists can still get both easily. Really, the only big hit I see is Abundant Step. But losing that you gain more powerful heals, the ability to slot Pin/Flowers/Cocoon without losing DM, along with gaining some useful, if minor, immunities; making Epic Fort not as big a loss to get Blinding Speed or Epic Reflexes.

    Thoughts?
    I have been thinking about this same idea for a while now. The problem is abundant step is so powerful on a build that pulls more mobs to gain DPS and that is used as a ranged tank/kiter for EE raids. Abundant step saves me from death a lot, I'd say at least once in every EE raid. I know I would die a whole lot more if I dropped abundant step from my build so for that reason alone I wouldn't drop the 12 monk.

    Some other considerations. When we run EE raids, talking about shadow, peaks and even FOT, I use Sestra as a tank on a dragon. I grab agro and then kite the boss in a designated area while the rest of the party DPS's it. The rest of the party doing that DPS are my guild mates and they are pushing out some serious DPS. The 20% loss in threat from teir 4 earth to teir 3 is enough so they now start pulling agro. I have done some testing on OC builds that use master of forms.

    Maximize vs empower healing. My heal clickie already hits me non-crit for more HP than I have so there is no need for EH feat on it. The only benefit would be on my cocoon, which would be very nice but I would loose 75 power from my cure serious and cure light clickies. Before I started taking maximize I didnt use the serious and light clickies because they were just insignificant. Now I have heals that can keep me up while cocoon is on timer. This allows me to byoh tank lower level raid bosses, like in Chronoscope or TOD. Without the maximize feat I cant do this. I just don't think gaining 75 SP on cocoon and loosing 75 SP on 2 of my clickies is going to make that much difference.

    On my current build, while kiting bosses I often have to swap to water stance just for the extra run speed so I can keep out of melee range. If I loose 5% run speed that would become a more frequent event, which is a loss in DPS.

    With grandmaster of forms when I swap stances my stats remain even, getting the maximum effect from them. If I build for teir 3 stances, when I swap to another stance all my main stats become uneven.
    Last edited by Knight_slayer; 04-27-2014 at 09:29 PM.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight_slayer View Post
    Sestra - 12 Monk, 6 Ranger, 2 Paladin. Lawful Good. Halfling. Arcane Archer. Fury of the Wild.


    Epic Feats:
    Posotive spell power. Maximize spell/Epic toughness. Combat archery. Epic fortitude. Forced escape.


    Enhancments:
    I will just give what I think is important and the AP I spent in the tree.
    Halfling - Heal, leaches, 12 AP.
    Arcane archer - Rune bow, arrow of slaying, improved elemental stances, 35 AP.
    Deepwood stalker - Damage boost T3, sniper shot 13 AP.
    Knight of the chalice - Divine might T3, 11 AP
    Henshin mystic - Contemplation T3, 8 AP
    Shintao - core ability, 1 AP

    Twists:
    Pin. A dance of flowers. Rejuvenation cocoon. (epic completionist) Bane of undeath.
    Surprised you went with Bane of Undeath over Grim Precision. Most of the raids these days feature a lot of high fortification mobs (undead/constructs) and the extra 15% fortification bypass seems like it would be better dps than the extra +11 Str that Divine might is giving you. It would also free up 11 ap to be spent more efficiently (maybe higher saves and SA damage from the Halfling tree as a start)


    Stats with gear and earth stance only:
    Str-28. Dex-33. Con-42. Int-16. Wis-46. Cha-32
    HP-1040
    SP-698
    AC-120
    Dodge-16%
    Fort save-65
    Reflex save-55
    Will save-62
    BAB +21/+24
    Fortification-130%
    PRR-96(40.23%)
    Positive spell power-354
    Saves look a bit low, especially reflex. Have you noticed any dps loss from needing to manually dodge out of the way of effects versus just letting your reflex save protect you? I actually swapped out epic fortitude for epic reflex on my build recently just so I could just ignore most reflex based effects (that and I don't run WGU as often so no-fail against stone to flesh is not that important to me), then again I am at a 70 reflex save atm.

    Curious on the impact you are seeing with the lower saves.
    Last edited by Andoris; 04-28-2014 at 08:42 AM.

  4. #84
    Community Member Sokól's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andoris View Post
    Surprised you went with Bane of Undeath over Grim Precision. Most of the raids these days feature a lot of high fortification mobs (undead/constructs) and the extra 15% fortification bypass seems like it would be better dps than the extra +11 Str that Divine might is giving you. It would also free up 11 ap to be spent more efficiently (maybe higher saves and SA damage from the Halfling tree as a start)



    Saves look a bit low, especially reflex. Have you noticed any dps loss from needing to manually dodge out of the way of effects versus just letting your reflex save protect you? I actually swapped out epic fortitude for epic reflex on my build recently just so I could just ignore most reflex based effects (that and I don't run WGU as often so no-fail against stone to flesh is not that important to me), then again I am at a 70 reflex save atm.

    Curious on the impact you are seeing with the lower saves.
    I agree with this, I would make a 12 monk 6 pally 2 ranger if adrenalin worked with stances...

    Reflex must be a little higher as I have a 2fvs split with 55 reflex!
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  5. #85
    Undermine Zerger Knight_slayer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sokól View Post
    I agree with this, I would make a 12 monk 6 pally 2 ranger if adrenalin worked with stances...

    Reflex must be a little higher as I have a 2fvs split with 55 reflex!
    If I only took 2 ranger I would loose AA enhansments! Bit detramental seeing I'm playing an AA and all.

    The reflex save is just fine, Im solo speedrunning EE raids on this build. Can't think of anything more difficult in the game than soloing EE raids and if my reflex doesn't let me down there, where do you think it would? Stormhorns? lmao. A guy once told me my build would fail in Stormhorns due to low fortitude. A while later I solod EE WGU not realising I didnt have any fort item on at all, till I watched the video afterwards. Hardley made any difference to my playstyle.

    Right now I would say the hardest hitting highest DC reflex save I have to make is in EE peaks while tanking a dragon that has the 400% damage boost buff, With absorbtion item,fireshield and my improved evasion I can keep myself alive. Unless theres some raid or quest that I dont know about that has some uber AOE or trap damage I cant think of anything that kills me due to failed reflex save. What was it you were thinking of when you made this comment?

    I find it a little weird how people come to some conclusions about my build. I post solo EE completions like FOT, WGU, DQ, Chrono, MA etc yet they then tell me how my build is flawed! Fort too low, saves too low, damage too low and whatever other rubbish they spam at me. Yet theres almost nothing more difficult left to do than what I've already done. So how and where are these build stats going to let me down? I don't see the logic behind these statments, so I just consider them spam from people that don't know any better.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight_slayer View Post
    The reflex save is just fine, Im solo speedrunning EE raids on this build. Can't think of anything more difficult in the game than soloing EE raids and if my reflex doesn't let me down there, where do you think it would? Stormhorns? lmao. A guy once told me my build would fail in Stormhorns due to low fortitude. A while later I solod EE WGU not realising I didnt have any fort item on at all, till I watched the video afterwards. Hardley made any difference to my playstyle.

    Right now I would say the hardest hitting highest DC reflex save I have to make is in EE peaks while tanking a dragon that has the 400% damage boost buff, With absorbtion item,fireshield and my improved evasion I can keep myself alive. Unless theres some raid or quest that I dont know about that has some uber AOE or trap damage I cant think of anything that kills me due to failed reflex save. What was it you were thinking of when you made this comment?

    I find it a little weird how people come to some conclusions about my build. I post solo EE completions like FOT, WGU, DQ, Chrono, MA etc yet they then tell me how my build is flawed! Fort too low, saves too low, damage too low and whatever other rubbish they spam at me. Yet theres almost nothing more difficult left to do than what I've already done. So how and where are these build stats going to let me down? I don't see the logic behind these statments, so I just consider them spam from people that don't know any better.
    Commentary wasn't around if you are doing it wrong.. it was trying to understand if I have over invested in saves on my AA.

    I was just trying to understand your reasoning behind the lower saves and choice to go with Divine Might over more fort bypass.

    My intention was not to say that anything was wrong, but just to understand why you chose to build it the way you did.

  7. #87
    Undermine Zerger Knight_slayer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andoris View Post
    Surprised you went with Bane of Undeath over Grim Precision. Most of the raids these days feature a lot of high fortification mobs (undead/constructs) and the extra 15% fortification bypass seems like it would be better dps than the extra +11 Str that Divine might is giving you. It would also free up 11 ap to be spent more efficiently (maybe higher saves and SA damage from the Halfling tree as a start)
    Self buffed I'm getting 16 strength from divine might. It's worth the 11 AP and twist IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andoris View Post
    Saves look a bit low, especially reflex. Have you noticed any dps loss from needing to manually dodge out of the way of effects versus just letting your reflex save protect you? I actually swapped out epic fortitude for epic reflex on my build recently just so I could just ignore most reflex based effects (that and I don't run WGU as often so no-fail against stone to flesh is not that important to me), then again I am at a 70 reflex save atm.

    Curious on the impact you are seeing with the lower saves.
    My reflex save has not changed and has never been an issue. Generaly I sit in the 65-70 reflex range self buffed, higher in raid groups.

  8. #88
    Undermine Zerger Knight_slayer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andoris View Post
    Commentary wasn't around if you are doing it wrong.
    I didnt quote you though!

    Quote Originally Posted by Andoris View Post
    it was trying to understand if I have over invested in saves on my AA.
    I am not familiar with your AA build but if you have improved evasion I think building for high reflex is wasted. If you just have regular evasion high reflex is very important.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight_slayer View Post
    I am not familiar with your AA build but if you have improved evasion I think building for high reflex is wasted. If you just have regular evasion high reflex is very important.
    Thanks for the feedback. I am running 12 monk/6 ranger/2 pally so I have Improved evasion. I will need to look as what trade offs I am making for the high saves and decide if I want to move things arond.

  10. #90
    Community Member Sokól's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight_slayer View Post
    If I only took 2 ranger I would loose AA enhansments! Bit detramental seeing I'm playing an AA and all.

    The reflex save is just fine, Im solo speedrunning EE raids on this build. Can't think of anything more difficult in the game than soloing EE raids and if my reflex doesn't let me down there, where do you think it would? Stormhorns? lmao. A guy once told me my build would fail in Stormhorns due to low fortitude. A while later I solod EE WGU not realising I didnt have any fort item on at all, till I watched the video afterwards. Hardley made any difference to my playstyle.

    Right now I would say the hardest hitting highest DC reflex save I have to make is in EE peaks while tanking a dragon that has the 400% damage boost buff, With absorbtion item,fireshield and my improved evasion I can keep myself alive. Unless theres some raid or quest that I dont know about that has some uber AOE or trap damage I cant think of anything that kills me due to failed reflex save. What was it you were thinking of when you made this comment?

    I find it a little weird how people come to some conclusions about my build. I post solo EE completions like FOT, WGU, DQ, Chrono, MA etc yet they then tell me how my build is flawed! Fort too low, saves too low, damage too low and whatever other rubbish they spam at me. Yet theres almost nothing more difficult left to do than what I've already done. So how and where are these build stats going to let me down? I don't see the logic behind these statments, so I just consider them spam from people that don't know any better.
    Sorry for the misunderstanding was thinking of a dragon tank/kiter build helf or elf AA inspired by your build :P

    I have seen your vids and achievements and they are impressive

    I am not telling your build is flawed just thought the reflex must be higher in gameplay as you stated.
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  11. #91
    Undermine Zerger Knight_slayer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sokól View Post
    I am not telling your build is flawed just thought the reflex must be higher in gameplay as you stated.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knight_slayer View Post
    Stats with gear and earth stance only:
    Yup thats gear and earth stance only.

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andoris View Post
    Thanks for the feedback. I am running 12 monk/6 ranger/2 pally so I have Improved evasion. I will need to look as what trade offs I am making for the high saves and decide if I want to move things arond.
    Important to remember that while something works well for someone, it may not work for you depending on your playstyle. When I am fighting mobs that spam AOE or deal big damage in general, I move away from them in multiple directions simultaniously. Like backwards and to the left holding down "s" and tapping "a" while fanning my mouse from left to right. Others just stand in 1 spot trying to gain stacks of archers focus or can only move foward or backwards because they manually click on their UI to activate clickies/abilities. If you have to click on your UI you can not move sideways while your mouse is disengaged so this tactic will not work for you. One playstyle will avoid much more damage than the other and therefor may not need as higher defence in that area. The other playstyle can activate many different abilities in quick sucession and therefor deals more DPS but needs higher saves.

  13. #93
    Community Member korsat's Avatar
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    don't get me wrong

    looks like shurikens outdps bow today

    even with a 12 wizard lvl split

    and have higher saves and/or more immunities

    not sure about the survivability with the incorporeal/displacement/dodge etc but... what do you think?

    EDIT: personally I think throw shuriken animation sucks
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  14. #94
    The Hatchery Zoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight_slayer View Post
    If you have to click on your UI you can not move sideways while your mouse is disengaged so this tactic will not work for you.
    That's only true if you are using default settings... For example I use mod key + A/D to be able to move sideways in mouse look mode if I want to.
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  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight_slayer View Post
    Others just stand in 1 spot trying to gain stacks of archers focus or can only move foward or backwards because they manually click on their UI to activate clickies/abilities. If you have to click on your UI you can not move sideways while your mouse is disengaged so this tactic will not work for you.
    You can circle strafe using nothing but the keyboard. The only requirement is that you have separate keys for turn right/left and strafe right/left. I use QE for strafe and AD for turn.

    To circle strafe, hold down the strafe key and tap the opposite turn key (hold Q and tap D will strafe clockwise, hold E and tap A will strafe counter clock wise). The more you hold down the turn key, the tighter the circle will be. This technique does work while jumping and/or moving forwards or backwards. Mapping my frequent attacks/spells to keys adjacent to the movement keys, I'm able to a huge amount of combat without even touching the mouse.

    One more fun feature for a thrower/ranged is windows click-lock. I have an icon in my quick start that pulls up the control panel page for the click-lock mouse properties. When enabled, holding the left mouse button down for a short period and then releasing causes windows to act as if the left mouse button is still pressed down. This is the auto attack that turbine never gave us. I was only playing ranged/melee toons in small amounts because the constant left mouse button holding/clicking was causing trouble with my right hand (yeah, getting old is rough). Using click lock, I'm able to avoid the majority of the left mouse button stress on my left hand. When click lock is active and you want to left click something, you have to click once to turn off click-lock, then again to interact... a tiny bit annoying but much less trouble than having my hand/finger hurt.

    Using click lock and keyboard circle strafe, my thrower is, by far, my least intense toon to run. That in turn has let me start learning the game on a different level. Before, I would spend so much time concentrating on managing dozens of buffs/spells/items/stuff that I was missing subtle animation things and positioning that some of the advanced players (like you!) talk about. By simplifying my game play interface, I have started doing things like dodging ray spells and reacting to an opponent caster starting to cast a spell.
    Last edited by Ancient; 04-28-2014 at 01:56 PM.

  16. #96
    Undermine Zerger Knight_slayer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by korsat View Post
    don't get me wrong

    looks like shurikens outdps bow today

    even with a 12 wizard lvl split

    and have higher saves and/or more immunities

    not sure about the survivability with the incorporeal/displacement/dodge etc but...
    Havn't seen a shuriken thrower build solo any raids yet, so to say they out DPS a bow is a little misleading.

  17. #97
    Community Member Takllin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight_slayer View Post
    Havn't seen a shuriken thrower build solo any raids yet, so to say they out DPS a bow is a little misleading.
    Heh, I don't think soloing a raid means you have more DPS than another player/build...

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  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Takllin View Post
    Heh, I don't think soloing a raid means you have more DPS than another player/build...
    Right but it's posted in my thread, which is an solo EE raid build, which is why I make the comparison. Yes in an instance where the mobs don't hit hard and throw deadly CC a thrower may well out DPS my AA.
    Last edited by Knight_slayer; 04-28-2014 at 04:37 PM.

  19. #99
    Community Member DrawingGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight_slayer View Post
    I have been thinking about this same idea for a while now. The problem is abundant step is so powerful on a build that pulls more mobs to gain DPS and that is used as a ranged tank/kiter for EE raids. Abundant step saves me from death a lot, I'd say at least once in every EE raid. I know I would die a whole lot more if I dropped abundant step from my build so for that reason alone I wouldn't drop the 12 monk.

    Some other considerations. When we run EE raids, talking about shadow, peaks and even FOT, I use Sestra as a tank on a dragon. I grab agro and then kite the boss in a designated area while the rest of the party DPS's it. The rest of the party doing that DPS are my guild mates and they are pushing out some serious DPS. The 20% loss in threat from teir 4 earth to teir 3 is enough so they now start pulling agro. I have done some testing on OC builds that use master of forms.

    Maximize vs empower healing. My heal clickie already hits me non-crit for more HP than I have so there is no need for EH feat on it. The only benefit would be on my cocoon, which would be very nice but I would loose 75 power from my cure serious and cure light clickies. Before I started taking maximize I didnt use the serious and light clickies because they were just insignificant. Now I have heals that can keep me up while cocoon is on timer. This allows me to byoh tank lower level raid bosses, like in Chronoscope or TOD. Without the maximize feat I cant do this. I just don't think gaining 75 SP on cocoon and loosing 75 SP on 2 of my clickies is going to make that much difference.

    On my current build, while kiting bosses I often have to swap to water stance just for the extra run speed so I can keep out of melee range. If I loose 5% run speed that would become a more frequent event, which is a loss in DPS.

    With grandmaster of forms when I swap stances my stats remain even, getting the maximum effect from them. If I build for teir 3 stances, when I swap to another stance all my main stats become uneven.
    Thanks Knight - I completely forgot that Maximize affects light and serious wounds (been a long time since I've played a healer - was thinking you maybe had it for when you ran Shiradi), so the Empower Heal advantage is not what I was thinking it was. I also don't question that Abundant Step can be a life saving button - being able to click away so you can safely heal is a nice thing. However for myself I've found the need to be pretty rare, so was thinking that Propulsion Boots that I just spam click to swap and step away may be sufficient. I'm also not bothered with having a stat odd as I'd still find the freed twist slot more important than that.. but not worth the loss of both Abundant Step and the feat slot.

    I've been playing my Monkcher as an Elf - it's solid, but cocoon is NOT enough on EE for those "oh ****" moments. So I've been debating between Halfling and Bladeforged. Halfling you already know - BF would allow me to have Power of the Forge and Haste Boost (sadly can afford only 1 tier of Divine Might, but I just treat it like an Action Boost with the other two). With that, though, you free up two feat slots (no need for Maximize or Dragonmark), a twist slot, and a chunk of additional Fortification (not to mention neg level immunity). The SLA is more SP hungry than Cocoon, but I never really struggled with SP on my Monkcher and Moonbow can be worked in if it's a big enough deal (there is 2 AP that I see the optimized AP split being able to float, which can go towards Moonbow, Improved Dodge, Weapon Attachment, HP, Fortitude, or tier 2 DM).

    All I can see as giving up is some SA die, the unfortunate stat penalties which essentially translates to 4 lower WIS (2 starting lower and losing 2 level ups that you need to put into DEX), though you do get can get STR or CON 2 higher (or one higher each depending on end stats), and Sniper Shot (as you're investing in Tempest rather than Deepwood).

    Both races are a strong fit for a self-sufficient player, but it seems to me that Bladeforged is a step ahead in this equation... not that you struggle with your Halfling. I'm wondering if you've already tried BF and why you went Halfling over Bladeforged (in case I'm missing something here like I was with the 4 vs 2 pally ).

  20. #100
    Community Member Tinco's Avatar
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    I think Halfling is for the low blows. Literally.

    (IPS is easier to line up vs. smaller hitboxes as a halfling)
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