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  1. #1
    Community Member Certon's Avatar
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    Default DDOCast ep. 309 review and concerns.

    Link to DDOCast 309 on Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxGBNAciMwM

    In DDOCast 309, which was a 2+ hour discussion with Producer Glin, Tolero, and Cordovan about where DDO was headed, (more specifically to talk about TR'ing and the changes it was going through) it was mentioned very briefly that the devs noticed the sit-in protests players were staging in the marketplace, but it was mentioned in such a backhanded manner, that I found it both emotionally detached and unprofessionally executed.

    These players are so passionate about a game they play that they used their free time to sit around in a static zone and do nothing but protest the changes you had made to the Reincarnation system on the Lammania server, and you had the gall to wave them away in a comment that shows how out of touch you are with the community-at-large. I must paraphrase here, but you said in essence that you would never have known it was occurring but someone happened to stumble across it and bring it to your attention. How unimportant these 'players' seemed in that very moment.

    You addressed the TR changes, and most of us are grateful for that, But in two hours you failed to mention the elephant in the room even once: itemization. If you pay attention to the forums, you do not make that very clear, because the discussion of the month was TR and the new direction you have taken with items.

    Your entire community relations team (if there is more than one person, that is – we do not have a clear picture of that) has failed to connect with the playerbase on this very issue. Most of us feel punished for purchasing the Shadowfell Conspiracy expansion, not only because the adventures are exclusive and riddled with pay-to-win, but because the previous expansion's itemization was snatched out of our very hands. In essence, you got a new Dungeon Master who turned the world upon its ear.

    I listened to the whole podcast. Every second. You did nothing to alleviate the concerns of the people who were baited into your product and who have made substantial financial contributions, only to have things switched out from under them. You dealt with a crisis in the half-hearted manner of a Dungeon Master forced to admit that perhaps he was wrong. This feeling was exacerbated by the fact that one of the producers wouldn't even show his face on video, like a man trying to hide from news cameras by draping the jacket over his head. It was stark, endless, and it felt forced.

    It is this reviewers humble opinion that as a community relations team, you have failed to execute your intended purpose in any meaningful manner. You are destroying your brand's reputation, and in the end, it seems like you just don't care.

    I hope I'm wrong.
    Last edited by Certon; 11-07-2013 at 12:03 PM.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Certon View Post
    Link to DDOCast 309 on Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxGBNAciMwM

    In DDOCast 309, which was a 2+ hour discussion with Producer Glin, Tolero, and Cordovan about where DDO was headed, (more specifically to talk about TR'ing and the changes it was going through) it was mentioned very briefly that the devs noticed the sit-in protests players were staging in the marketplace, but it was mentioned in such a backhanded manner, that I found it both emotionally detached and unprofessionally executed.

    These players are so passionate about a game they play that they used their free time to sit around in a static zone and do nothing but protest the changes you had made to the Reincarnation system on the Lammania server, and you had the gall to wave them away in a comment that shows how out of touch you are with the community-at-large. I must paraphrase here, but you said in essence that you would never have known it was occurring but someone happened to stumble across it and bring it to your attention. How unimportant these 'players' seemed in that very moment.
    I have to agree that I was pretty shocked by the response to the protest. I would be tempted to say that maybe they didn't want to focus too much attention on the protest in order to avoid encouraging that type of response in the future, except that it was stated that they didn't even know the basic facts about the protest. They thought that it only went on for 1 day, for instance. So clearly the protest simply wasn't of concern or even something to be looked into. I can't imagine any other entity that becomes aware that a number of their constituents are mounting a protest and the only response is "Oh, interesting".

  3. #3
    Community Member Certon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    I have to agree that I was pretty shocked by the response to the protest. I would be tempted to say that maybe they didn't want to focus too much attention on the protest in order to avoid encouraging that type of response in the future, except that it was stated that they didn't even know the basic facts about the protest. They thought that it only went on for 1 day, for instance. So clearly the protest simply wasn't of concern or even something to be looked into. I can't imagine any other entity that becomes aware that a number of their constituents are mounting a protest and the only response is "Oh, interesting".
    Yes, very bad form. It was almost Marie Antoinette-ish in its execution.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Certon View Post
    Yes, very bad form. It was almost Marie Antoinette-ish in its execution.
    "Let them have Obscenity."

    Meanwhile the peasants only have Ghostbane.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by oradafu View Post
    "Let them have Obscenity."

    Meanwhile the peasants only have Ghostbane.
    This is worthy of a Riposte...
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  6. #6
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    I feel very sad that Turbine thinks so little of such a large demonstration (hundreds of players) for so long a time (several days).

    We made a peaceful protest in order to bring attention to our concerns. We felt that these were not being heard.

    Belittling players for making a peaceful, strong and social protest is not my idea of good community relations skills.

    I want to thank everyone who was part of the protest for making it one of the best times I've had in DDO. I feel sad that Turbine is belittling that, but it does not change the fact that I think it was right, warranted and a great experience.

    But it does shake what little faith in Turbine's community relations I had left.

    And in conclusion because it was missing in this post: Ghostbane.
    <seemingly offensive Army of Darkness quote>

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    Acknowledging a child holding it's breath until it gets it's way, just encourages that sort of activity. Better to ignore them till they either give up or pass out and automatic reflexes rectify things in such a situation IMO.
    A peaceful protest over a concern shared by 300+ players is childish, but insulting people acting on theirs is not?

    I think we will have to agree to disagree on that.
    <seemingly offensive Army of Darkness quote>

  8. #8
    Community Member HernandoCortez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Certon View Post
    Link to DDOCast 309 on Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxGBNAciMwM

    In DDOCast 309, which was a 2+ hour discussion with Producer Glin, Tolero, and Cordovan about where DDO was headed, (more specifically to talk about TR'ing and the changes it was going through) it was mentioned very briefly that the devs noticed the sit-in protests players were staging in the marketplace, but it was mentioned in such a backhanded manner, that I found it both emotionally detached and unprofessionally executed.

    These players are so passionate about a game they play that they used their free time to sit around in a static zone and do nothing but protest the changes you had made to the Reincarnation system on the Lammania server, and you had the gall to wave them away in a comment that shows how out of touch you are with the community-at-large. I must paraphrase here, but you said in essence that you would never have known it was occurring but someone happened to stumble across it and bring it to your attention. How unimportant these 'players' seemed in that very moment.

    You addressed the TR changes, and most of us are grateful for that, But in two hours you failed to mention the elephant in the room even once: itemization. If you pay attention to the forums, you do not make that very clear, because the discussion of the month was TR and the new direction you have taken with items.

    Your entire community relations team (if there is more than one person, that is – we do not have a clear picture of that) has failed to connect with the playerbase on this very issue. Most of us feel punished for purchasing the Shadowfell Conspiracy expansion, not only because the adventures are exclusive and riddled with pay-to-win, but because the previous expansion's itemization was snatched out of our very hands. In essence, you got a new Dungeon Master who turned the world upon its ear.

    I listened to the whole podcast. Every second. You did nothing to alleviate the concerns of the people who were baited into your product and who have made substantial financial contributions, only to have things switched out from under them. You dealt with a crisis in the half-hearted manner of a Dungeon Master forced to admit that perhaps he was wrong. This feeling was exacerbated by the fact that one of the producers wouldn't even show his face on video, like a man trying to hide from news cameras by draping the jacket over his head. It was stark, endless, and it felt forced.

    It is this reviewers humble opinion that as a community relations team, you have failed to execute your intended purpose in any meaningful manner. You are destroying your brand's reputation, and in the end, it seems like you just don't care.

    I hope I'm wrong.
    Perfect. Well said.

    This shows us exactly how much they care about their playerbase.
    I've bought Shadowfail, and I'm done spending money in this game. I doubt things will get better.

  9. #9
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    Let them eat siberys cake!!111!!1!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Certon View Post
    This feeling was exacerbated by the fact that one of the producers wouldn't even show his face on video, like a man trying to hide from news cameras by draping the jacket over his head.
    Or he was participating from a computer which didn't have a webcam.

    Not everything is a conspiracy.

  11. #11
    Community Member MonadRebelion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Certon View Post
    Link to DDOCast 309 on Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxGBNAciMwM

    In DDOCast 309, which was a 2+ hour discussion with Producer Glin, Tolero, and Cordovan about where DDO was headed, (more specifically to talk about TR'ing and the changes it was going through) it was mentioned very briefly that the devs noticed the sit-in protests players were staging in the marketplace, but it was mentioned in such a backhanded manner, that I found it both emotionally detached and unprofessionally executed.

    These players are so passionate about a game they play that they used their free time to sit around in a static zone and do nothing but protest the changes you had made to the Reincarnation system on the Lammania server, and you had the gall to wave them away in a comment that shows how out of touch you are with the community-at-large. I must paraphrase here, but you said in essence that you would never have known it was occurring but someone happened to stumble across it and bring it to your attention. How unimportant these 'players' seemed in that very moment.

    You addressed the TR changes, and most of us are grateful for that, But in two hours you failed to mention the elephant in the room even once: itemization. If you pay attention to the forums, you do not make that very clear, because the discussion of the month was TR and the new direction you have taken with items.

    Your entire community relations team (if there is more than one person, that is – we do not have a clear picture of that) has failed to connect with the playerbase on this very issue. Most of us feel punished for purchasing the Shadowfell Conspiracy expansion, not only because the adventures are exclusive and riddled with pay-to-win, but because the previous expansion's itemization was snatched out of our very hands. In essence, you got a new Dungeon Master who turned the world upon its ear.

    I listened to the whole podcast. Every second. You did nothing to alleviate the concerns of the people who were baited into your product and who have made substantial financial contributions, only to have things switched out from under them. You dealt with a crisis in the half-hearted manner of a Dungeon Master forced to admit that perhaps he was wrong. This feeling was exacerbated by the fact that one of the producers wouldn't even show his face on video, like a man trying to hide from news cameras by draping the jacket over his head. It was stark, endless, and it felt forced.

    It is this reviewers humble opinion that as a community relations team, you have failed to execute your intended purpose in any meaningful manner. You are destroying your brand's reputation, and in the end, it seems like you just don't care.

    I hope I'm wrong.

    There might have been something a bit backhanded about Tolero's comment. Yet, I think the only reason it would have been a good idea for her to change what she said is because she is the community specialist for ddo. Given her position, it may have been bad form to speak so honestly about the Wayfinder protest, and not make the protesters on Wayfinder feel like what they were doing was really important, or least just as important to the decision making process at Turbine as all the suggestions people posted on the forums. Thus, her politically inept maneuver might well have made Machiavelli cringe. So, I guess part of the concern here is that the folks at Turbine aren't quite Machiavellian enough for some players.

    At any rate, I think Tolero's intended message in the episode of ddocast was basically positive. The message I took her to be expressing is that the folks at Turbine were so responsive to the community that they were able to effect change in their development strategy before they were finished evaluating player responses to epic reincarnation.

    It might also be worth noting that Tolero's 'faux pas' suggests lessons we might take concerning protests. For instance, not every form of protest is equal. Apparently expressing your specific concerns in writing on the forums works better than standing around in the Wayfinder marketplace. We shouldn't expect every protest to be successful. You may not achieve the desired effect with your protest, if your protest is off where no one at Turbine happens to be looking. Finally, since it seems community specialists monitor forum posts with lots of contributions more closely than they monitor rather spontaneous activity on Wayfinder, contributing to forum discussions is more effective than spontaneous standing around on what is far and away the least populated server in the game. These seem to me fair inferences we can make based on what some people might view as Tolero's politically inept description of Turbine's response (or lack thereof) to the Wayfinder protest.
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  12. #12
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MonadRebelion View Post
    There might have been something a bit backhanded about Tolero's comment. Yet, I think the only reason it would have been a good idea for her to change what she said is because she is the community specialist for ddo. Given her position, it may have been bad form to speak so honestly about the Wayfinder protest, and not make the protesters on Wayfinder feel like what they were doing was really important, or least just as important to the decision making process at Turbine as all the suggestions people posted on the forums. Thus, her politically inept maneuver might well have made Machiavelli cringe. So, I guess part of the concern here is that the folks at Turbine aren't quite Machiavellian enough for some players.

    At any rate, I think Tolero's intended message in the episode of ddocast was basically positive. The message I took her to be expressing is that the folks at Turbine were so responsive to the community that they were able to effect change in their development strategy before they were finished evaluating player responses to epic reincarnation.

    It might also be worth noting that Tolero's 'faux pas' suggests lessons we might take concerning protests. For instance, not every form of protest is equal. Apparently expressing your specific concerns in writing on the forums works better than standing around in the Wayfinder marketplace. We shouldn't expect every protest to be successful. You may not achieve the desired effect with your protest, if your protest is off where no one at Turbine happens to be looking. Finally, since it seems community specialists monitor forum posts with lots of contributions more closely than they monitor rather spontaneous activity on Wayfinder, contributing to forum discussions is more effective than spontaneous standing around on what is far and away the least populated server in the game. These seem to me fair inferences we can make based on what some people might view as Tolero's politically inept description of Turbine's response (or lack thereof) to the Wayfinder protest.
    Or she missed the significance of the protest in the first place.

    Again, she seems to give a **** about the game, and the players. However, what I found somewhat troubling was a lot of talk about using “numbers” and “data” to debate direction.

    Where do these numbers come from? Who gets these surveys? It obviously isn’t on the forums, because the General area – where a lot of the overt complaints are being posted – has nothing. I’m looking around the forums and I saw NOTHING that had to do with things like whether we liked the random lootgen system or not. So, where are they getting these numbers?

    They certainly haven’t asked me anything, nor have they sent me a survey, or as far as I can recall offered to have me participate in one. So it lends one to wonder where these “numbers” and “data” being discussed are coming from.

    Comments in the forums? I really don’t think so.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post

    Again, she seems to give a **** about the game, and the players. However, what I found somewhat troubling was a lot of talk about using “numbers” and “data” to debate direction.

    Where do these numbers come from? Who gets these surveys? It obviously isn’t on the forums, because the General area – where a lot of the overt complaints are being posted – has nothing. I’m looking around the forums and I saw NOTHING that had to do with things like whether we liked the random lootgen system or not. So, where are they getting these numbers?
    I have to agree. I don't think there much "care" left for the game outside of it pays their personal bills. (it's a paycheck and that's all) There's no passion left, or if there is, it's swallowed by the gaping hole of complacency and ineptitude.

    And speaking of numbers, the most shocking revelation I heard was that when they chose to use sagas as a delivery method for Vcomms, they didn't look at their "data" to even see if they were popular. And after the forum uproar they went back and saw it wasn't feasible. C'mon now.

    Companies pay large amounts of money to gather data that Turbine can pull for free (focus groups, trials etc) to see what their consumers prefer. They chose to ignore it. Now they could just be that oblivious and incompetent. Or they could have lied in the podcast, very well knew the numbers and decided to try to pull a fast one and see if it slipped thru.

    Either way it really shows just how much they value our playing and support. Not much more than you value that dollar in your pocket. It's just a dollar. It's kinda just there, you wouldn't be to bummed if you accidentally lost it. But it's good for a double cheeseburger at McDonalds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hafeal View Post

    I would add, and I will call out Fernando on this, that there has been a vision problem in this game for some time - a lack of telling players the real vision for the future and undertaking projects no one asked for all the while being unable to get old projects to work as they should.
    I read an interview somewhere that said Fernando was also thinking about other projects and Glin was transitioning into being the new "Producer Name but no face" of DDO. How long or if that even has happened I am not sure of.
    Last edited by Drwaz99; 11-07-2013 at 05:24 PM.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drwaz99 View Post
    And speaking of numbers, the most shocking revelation I heard was that when they chose to use sagas as a delivery method for Vcomms, they didn't look at their "data" to even see if they were popular. And after the forum uproar they went back and saw it wasn't feasible. C'mon now.
    I have to completely agree here - what!? Turbine didn't look at its own data? Really? REALLY? Geez. Can we really trust them when they tell us which quests get run, how often?



    Quote Originally Posted by Drwaz99 View Post
    I read an interview somewhere that said Fernando was also thinking about other projects and Glin was transitioning into being the new "Producer Name but no face" of DDO. How long or if that even has happened I am not sure of.
    See, what happened there is Fernando is on the 'get my butt out of DDO Producer' role to move up the proverbial corporate ladder - just like Ms. Paiz managed to do in jumping out of 'dead end' DDO role.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drwaz99 View Post
    And speaking of numbers, the most shocking revelation I heard was that when they chose to use sagas as a delivery method for Vcomms, they didn't look at their "data" to even see if they were popular. And after the forum uproar they went back and saw it wasn't feasible. C'mon now.

    Companies pay large amounts of money to gather data that Turbine can pull for free (focus groups, trials etc) to see what their consumers prefer. They chose to ignore it. Now they could just be that oblivious and incompetent. Or they could have lied in the podcast, very well knew the numbers and decided to try to pull a fast one and see if it slipped thru.
    by offering a popular reward, I think they were trying to boost sagas and boost pack sales. it was an obvious money grab scheme and they went about it the wrong way, but it really was a good attempt. i still think sagas is one of their better ideas lately, but they need to do a better job with a storyline that makes more sense. i bet having more Eberron sagas would increase popularity. I don't really see how sagas are THAT unpopular, but I know a lot of players that run them as optional and not as forced.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    i bet having more Eberron sagas would increase popularity. I don't really see how sagas are THAT unpopular, but I know a lot of players that run them as optional and not as forced.
    Well, they killed end game - Sagas were basically all at end game. End game is much harder for Casuals to Solo, so who was going to run them? The Vets they just banned? Or the ones they encouraged to TR and are on the TR bandwagon again?

    Just like they underestimated Sagas, I think they underestimated Eberron and the fact that it should have been updated just as much as Eveningstar expanded. In fact, if you were going to add content to Eveningstar, the counter-balance of adding 1 saga at a time (assuring they work) to Eberron would have made more sense, imo. I mean, the idea was to broaden the content players run, not limit it, right?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drwaz99 View Post
    I have to agree. I don't think there much "care" left for the game outside of it pays their personal bills. (it's a paycheck and that's all) There's no passion left, or if there is, it's swallowed by the gaping hole of complacency and ineptitude.
    Also...this is NOT what I said.

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    LOL

    I was more insulted by her comment about myth-busters and testing that iXXXX lagtastic **** that ruined my raiding for months on Wayfinder. Learn how to test, woman! She was dismissive and also came across as stupid. Go on one of the big servers.

    Though with so few raids to run, is that problem an issue anymore? LOL

    And wow... the devs didn't know about the protest until Tuesday. That's nice. People care enough about your game to protest and you're dismissive. Yeah, probably a good idea to be more PC about it.
    I don't care enough to protest anymore. And therefore give no money to Turbine. These people still care and play your game.

    Just stupid all around.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Also...this is NOT what I said.
    The way you wrote it is very deceptive. How about instead of just saying that's not what you meant, actually clarifying it, especially since at least 2 of us misunderstood. I know, shocking idea.

    Either way, my statement stands as to how I feel.

  20. #20
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    There mere fact that they mentioned the protests means they acknowledge people were upset. They could have just as easily said nothing. So, it got someone’s attention.

    However, dismissing it? Not a good idea.

    I’m not a big one for jumping up and down about changes in the game – it’s a frickin’ game. When they did the Enhancement pass, seeing that I don’t multiclass, I had a hard time having a freak-out about the changes. My biggest issue was more along the lines that the screwed me on VIP. That was a non-game issue, as it goes back to an agreement on payment and services delivered.

    However, some of the changes they’ve made recently seem so brain-dead that it makes me wonder what in the hell some of them are thinking. Tinkering with the random loot system the way they did took what was, in my mind, something usable in the game and turning it into a big, steaming pile of dog ****. You had all of this variety – and a lot of it was useful – and then you take it away, and make half of the drops either riposte, or ghostbane. It makes you wonder who was on a week-long crack bender to come up with that sort of decision…

    Nerfing Terror was another one. Without the enhanced PK, that weapon is basically a joke. Yet, someone decided that it was OP, or had to bring it in line with something else – I have no frickin’ idea why that would be – and the result is that it is a pointless piece of **** now. Again, what crack bender was someone on when THAT decision was made?

    And then the decision behind Ghostbane – not just the combination of Ghost Touch and Undead Bane but the reason why they made it, and why it drops so much – was just another glaring example of some of the bizarre decisions being made. Ok, maybe it is a good idea in some sense. WHY they made it, and made it drop like candy from the skies, just utterly boggles the mind.

    Now they are taking away tokens for True Hearts of Wood. This bizarre-o part about this decision is not the fact that they are removing tokens and replacing them with something else, it is the UTTERLY CONVOLUTED, DISJOINTED, HIGH-ON rationale they are using to make the change. “The system is broken!” They claim. No it’s not. The system works fine. What’s broken is the fact that some moron out there didn’t think through the fact that creating “iconic” characters in Eveningstar didn’t mesh well with the fact that the TR system is based in Ebberon. Duh! I dunno, this **** really isn’t all that hard – maybe someone should have raised that point when they were discussing adding “iconics” to the roster? Hummmm…???

    But instead, we had someone throw out there that the TR system was “broken.” Wow. What an utterly stupid comment! It is broken because YOU BROKE IT!!!

    Cripes – I don’t even care about the TR system. But those comments just stuck out like a sore thumb.

    Some of those people should be glad they don’t work at a real software company; because they’d be fired. In fact, a guy like me would make it his mission to make sure morons like that were thrown out onto the frickin’ pavement, squishy stress-ball and all. That type of blatant stupidity costs the company money, and directly affects my paycheck. Me? I take that kind of **** personal as I have kids to feed, and a mortgage to pay. Oh yeah: I also have a little pride in my work.

    The result is this meandering, discombobulated message being sent from the devs on these subjects – which the players know JUST AS WELL as the people developing the game because they…uh…actually use the product – that results in a forum post like the one in the OP. And yeah, it shows. I picked up on that almost right away.

    The working assumption here is that the end-users of the product are a bunch of idiots. Gosh, with an arrogant position like that, I hope none of these people wonder why people in-game are having little protests over how things are being handled.

    And again: I generally don’t get into this game like most people. I’m just seeing some really dumb decisions being made, and then these utterly laughable excuses being proffered in response. And, to be honest, I don’t think this bodes well for the future direction of the game.

    It doesn’t matter too much to me. If things get really bad, I’ll just go somewhere else for my entertainment. That’s the beauty of competition. However, there are three people in that podcast who will most likely be out of a job (actually, maybe 2 of them – one of them will use their political connections to move on to something else). And that’s the real tragedy of all of this.

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