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  1. #41
    Community Member Hawkwier's Avatar
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    Question Perspective

    First off I'd say fair play to those who took some time to protest.

    I thought about joining by dual boxing or sitting in when afk on RL matters but really didn't think it that worthwhile in terms of effectiveness.

    I do think however that maybe some of the folks involved may have been over-expecting on the actual impact this was going to have.

    Understandable I guess for those who did invest a lot of time on it.

    I'm surprised figures qouted are as high as 300, but that number surely still only represents a miniscule proportion of the customer base.

    In short the response on the blog seems about right to me. I don't think those critical of that are taking an altogether objective perspective.

    I also think that the view that it's actually surprising that devs might care about the game is symptomatic of the kind of complete loss of perspective we see far too often on these foums.

    But at least the 300 got some disproportionate publicity beyond the game and raised their agenda well enough in that regard.

    So gj on that. And at least for giving it a go.

  2. #42
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    I was on the bridge the whole week as well. On my main and only account, leaving only when going to bed (not afking as I was worried my laptop would overheat).
    While on the bridge I had many discussions and even watched a group run an old TSR module over chat. Missed out on Memnir's wonderfull Trivia events due to timezone differences, but in all definitely got the impression a lot of people actually were THERE rather than faking it.

    Regarding the claim they would not even have noticed it except somebody "stumbled upon it", that's just a blatant lie since there were MANY threads on it on the forum, both in General and on Lama, and the only way for them to be unaware of it would have been if they did not READ said fora. Which, by their own admission, they do. Even Glin occasionally responds to a thread.
    So while they may have deliberately ignored it, they definitely were AWARE of it.

    As for them not realising the importance of it... Well... We ARE talking about the same people that stealth BUFFED the 20th reaward list for Demon Queen O.o
    I mean, talk about a GOOD change that would have earned them some goodwill if only they had ANNOUNCED it...

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    Last edited by RedOrm; 11-08-2013 at 03:59 PM.

  3. #43
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buffyanne View Post
    I echo this 100%. They definitely care about this game and have passion for it, I think it is in very good hands.

    And why would they care or be influenced what a couple hundred occupiers thought? A couple hundred people out of the tens of thousands that play the game? Come on. If anything the vocal minority ruin the game for the silent majority, just look at the Mabar shutdown. I think the game is in good hands, they just need to block out the white noise and stick with their plan. I personally have really enjoyed DDO in 2013. Great new loot, +5 tomes from three event raid completions and what looks to be a pretty exciting new TR and ETR system. Plus I'll be able to pick up that shadow expansion in a few weeks when they discount if half off for thanksgiving or Christmas sale. The bottom line is you can always find stuff to complain about but if you look at it from a broader perspective things are going pretty well.
    Ummm...that is NOT what I said.

  4. #44
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drwaz99 View Post
    I have to agree. I don't think there much "care" left for the game outside of it pays their personal bills. (it's a paycheck and that's all) There's no passion left, or if there is, it's swallowed by the gaping hole of complacency and ineptitude.
    Also...this is NOT what I said.

  5. #45
    Community Member deahamlet's Avatar
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    LOL

    I was more insulted by her comment about myth-busters and testing that iXXXX lagtastic **** that ruined my raiding for months on Wayfinder. Learn how to test, woman! She was dismissive and also came across as stupid. Go on one of the big servers.

    Though with so few raids to run, is that problem an issue anymore? LOL

    And wow... the devs didn't know about the protest until Tuesday. That's nice. People care enough about your game to protest and you're dismissive. Yeah, probably a good idea to be more PC about it.
    I don't care enough to protest anymore. And therefore give no money to Turbine. These people still care and play your game.

    Just stupid all around.
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  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by deahamlet View Post
    LOL

    I was more insulted by her comment about myth-busters and testing that iXXXX lagtastic **** that ruined my raiding for months on Wayfinder. Learn how to test, woman! She was dismissive and also came across as stupid. Go on one of the big servers.

    Though with so few raids to run, is that problem an issue anymore? LOL

    And wow... the devs didn't know about the protest until Tuesday. That's nice. People care enough about your game to protest and you're dismissive. Yeah, probably a good idea to be more PC about it.
    I don't care enough to protest anymore. And therefore give no money to Turbine. These people still care and play your game.

    Just stupid all around.
    I'm curious of the number of people who insult Turbine daily versus the number of people who are quiet and enjoying the game. I cannot blame them for not reading the forums since almost every post is 'Turbine sucks' 'I hate DDO' 'I am giving no more money' blah blah blah...DOOOOOOOOOoooOOOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111 etc..etc..etc...

    Do you people really think they are changing things around to make people leave the game? I think the best change they have made recently is the quest ransacking system. Since the old system punished casual players and only elitist TRs were enjoying running a quest 10 times in a row and moving on to the next one. Some people have only an hour or so a day to play and I enjoy running 1-2 quests a night and not having to worry about 'Did I run this quest 10 times already? Great, no more xp from it.'

    The constant barrage of anger in these forums is very tiresome and I really only read it for a laugh. But one thing I will say, is that when a person asks a genuine question about gameplay, you generally will see honest answers from people and the anger sticks are put aside for at least one post.

    So in closing, I hope people realize that this game is not just a hobby for Turbine. It needs to be profitable because they need to support it with development and servers/bandwidth/etc. The minute this game is no longer generating money, they will close the doors because there would be no point maintaining something that does not keep revenue flowing. For all rage-quitters, you are only speeding the demise of a game that many of us still enjoy playing and spending money...just wish I would've bought up some more TP's on that last bonus roung.

    And Ghostbane just to keep on topic.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Also...this is NOT what I said.
    The way you wrote it is very deceptive. How about instead of just saying that's not what you meant, actually clarifying it, especially since at least 2 of us misunderstood. I know, shocking idea.

    Either way, my statement stands as to how I feel.

  8. #48
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    There mere fact that they mentioned the protests means they acknowledge people were upset. They could have just as easily said nothing. So, it got someone’s attention.

    However, dismissing it? Not a good idea.

    I’m not a big one for jumping up and down about changes in the game – it’s a frickin’ game. When they did the Enhancement pass, seeing that I don’t multiclass, I had a hard time having a freak-out about the changes. My biggest issue was more along the lines that the screwed me on VIP. That was a non-game issue, as it goes back to an agreement on payment and services delivered.

    However, some of the changes they’ve made recently seem so brain-dead that it makes me wonder what in the hell some of them are thinking. Tinkering with the random loot system the way they did took what was, in my mind, something usable in the game and turning it into a big, steaming pile of dog ****. You had all of this variety – and a lot of it was useful – and then you take it away, and make half of the drops either riposte, or ghostbane. It makes you wonder who was on a week-long crack bender to come up with that sort of decision…

    Nerfing Terror was another one. Without the enhanced PK, that weapon is basically a joke. Yet, someone decided that it was OP, or had to bring it in line with something else – I have no frickin’ idea why that would be – and the result is that it is a pointless piece of **** now. Again, what crack bender was someone on when THAT decision was made?

    And then the decision behind Ghostbane – not just the combination of Ghost Touch and Undead Bane but the reason why they made it, and why it drops so much – was just another glaring example of some of the bizarre decisions being made. Ok, maybe it is a good idea in some sense. WHY they made it, and made it drop like candy from the skies, just utterly boggles the mind.

    Now they are taking away tokens for True Hearts of Wood. This bizarre-o part about this decision is not the fact that they are removing tokens and replacing them with something else, it is the UTTERLY CONVOLUTED, DISJOINTED, HIGH-ON rationale they are using to make the change. “The system is broken!” They claim. No it’s not. The system works fine. What’s broken is the fact that some moron out there didn’t think through the fact that creating “iconic” characters in Eveningstar didn’t mesh well with the fact that the TR system is based in Ebberon. Duh! I dunno, this **** really isn’t all that hard – maybe someone should have raised that point when they were discussing adding “iconics” to the roster? Hummmm…???

    But instead, we had someone throw out there that the TR system was “broken.” Wow. What an utterly stupid comment! It is broken because YOU BROKE IT!!!

    Cripes – I don’t even care about the TR system. But those comments just stuck out like a sore thumb.

    Some of those people should be glad they don’t work at a real software company; because they’d be fired. In fact, a guy like me would make it his mission to make sure morons like that were thrown out onto the frickin’ pavement, squishy stress-ball and all. That type of blatant stupidity costs the company money, and directly affects my paycheck. Me? I take that kind of **** personal as I have kids to feed, and a mortgage to pay. Oh yeah: I also have a little pride in my work.

    The result is this meandering, discombobulated message being sent from the devs on these subjects – which the players know JUST AS WELL as the people developing the game because they…uh…actually use the product – that results in a forum post like the one in the OP. And yeah, it shows. I picked up on that almost right away.

    The working assumption here is that the end-users of the product are a bunch of idiots. Gosh, with an arrogant position like that, I hope none of these people wonder why people in-game are having little protests over how things are being handled.

    And again: I generally don’t get into this game like most people. I’m just seeing some really dumb decisions being made, and then these utterly laughable excuses being proffered in response. And, to be honest, I don’t think this bodes well for the future direction of the game.

    It doesn’t matter too much to me. If things get really bad, I’ll just go somewhere else for my entertainment. That’s the beauty of competition. However, there are three people in that podcast who will most likely be out of a job (actually, maybe 2 of them – one of them will use their political connections to move on to something else). And that’s the real tragedy of all of this.

  9. #49
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drwaz99 View Post
    The way you wrote it is very deceptive. How about instead of just saying that's not what you meant, actually clarifying it, especially since at least 2 of us misunderstood. I know, shocking idea.
    The whole point was to be obscure, which is deceptive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drwaz99 View Post
    Either way, my statement stands as to how I feel.
    I got no problem with that. Just pointing out that your assumption is not the way I feel.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    ~Snipped everything for brevity~
    Everything bsquishwizzy just said is spot-on. I doubt anyone could say it better. Personally, I have to admit I am interested in EverQuest Next and will probably check it out when it drops. I hate to give up this game because the character customization and the importance of carefully selecting your gear really intrigues me on an intellectual level (to wit: I have 12 characters, each with their own document detailing the epic level gear I am seeking for each - including color coding to show which ones I have, which are in progress, and which ones I have not yet even started on).

  11. #51
    Community Member Hendrik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    You listened to the whole thing and the overriding concern was the lack of discussion about the protest?

    You heard an honest answer that it didn't rock the foundations of Turbine HQ to it's core? You think maybe they should just fabricate a pseudo-sincere canned response to placate those who protested?

    We must be listening to a different Podcast. I actually felt very encouraged that given the near-miss that the saga token debacle would have been, their timing by appearing on DDOCast was an ideal opportunity for them to come out say that they don't always get it right, and they did that. They explained some of the processes they go through, and they made it clear that they took a leap of assumption on how the saga's were actually being used, and I think it's pretty obvious that they learned from it. Will they always make the decisions that I think they should going forward? Hell, no. They should of course. But they won't.

    I would like to see more of the community, development, QA and production bodies appear on more round-table discussions on any of the fan-organised sites. I think 309 was a timely opportunity for some people to get a reminder that there is a human face to the decisions that are made, not some Machiavellian Demagogs hell-bent on destroying the game that keeps them in employment.
    Well said.

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    It's totally true, I have a reliable source. You better reroll now.
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  12. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Certon View Post
    Link to DDOCast 309 on Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxGBNAciMwM

    In DDOCast 309, which was a 2+ hour discussion with Producer Glin, Tolero, and Cordovan about where DDO was headed, (more specifically to talk about TR'ing and the changes it was going through) it was mentioned very briefly that the devs noticed the sit-in protests players were staging in the marketplace, but it was mentioned in such a backhanded manner, that I found it both emotionally detached and unprofessionally executed.

    These players are so passionate about a game they play that they used their free time to sit around in a static zone and do nothing but protest the changes you had made to the Reincarnation system on the Lammania server, and you had the gall to wave them away in a comment that shows how out of touch you are with the community-at-large. I must paraphrase here, but you said in essence that you would never have known it was occurring but someone happened to stumble across it and bring it to your attention. How unimportant these 'players' seemed in that very moment.
    Its really hard to believe that this is the essence people take out of Toleros comment. She noticed the protest AFTER she already initiated a discussion of that issue as soon as possible (which was monday). So the essence is, that those steps were taken even faster then the protest got noticed.

    Her words were: "As early as like Saturday morning or something I was pinging those guys (the devs) off shift like: Guys! Monday, the first thing we are doing when we are in the office is we are talking about reincarnation. This is getting serious. And then later, when I was going through things it was like: Oh hey look, a protest, thats cool. And then, by about Tuesday, we were already having all these discussion, Glin had already put out his email and at some point Cordovan and I mentioned: Oh yeah and the Wayfinder guys are doing a protest. And they were like: They're doing what?! I'm like: Yeah, they are doing a protest. They were like: Oh, I didn't know that. I'm like: Yeah, I've been watching them all weekend."

    IMO, these words, and the tone they were spoken in, expresses both an acknowledgement of this particular method of protest and the fact, that steps to change the subject of the protest had already been taken, so there was nothing to worry about.

    In addition, did anyone notice that she was working? On a weekend? In her free time? Watching the protest all weekend? Is this how people who just care about their paycheck and have no passion about this game typically behave? I don't think so...


    You can now call me fanboy or whatever, I don't give a ****. But due to my sense of justice i cannot leave a thread like this uncommented. Go watch her videos from the time when she was a player. Go listen to her contributions to the old ddocast episodes, when Cordovan still hosted it.
    Or go watch her community videos as a Turbine employee, where she dresses as an owlbear at work. Or, even better, talk to her in person (Yes, thats very much possible. I did it, and I live in Germany). Then return to this thread and honestly post your opinion again.

    Also, Ghostbane.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dandonk View Post
    I feel very sad that Turbine thinks so little of such a large demonstration (hundreds of players) for so long a time (several days).

    We made a peaceful protest in order to bring attention to our concerns. We felt that these were not being heard.

    Belittling players for making a peaceful, strong and social protest is not my idea of good community relations skills.

    I want to thank everyone who was part of the protest for making it one of the best times I've had in DDO. I feel sad that Turbine is belittling that, but it does not change the fact that I think it was right, warranted and a great experience.

    But it does shake what little faith in Turbine's community relations I had left.

    And in conclusion because it was missing in this post: Ghostbane.
    The only thing you said that made any sense was Ghostbane.

    I didn't hear about the protest. Seems kinda funny to think sitting in the Marketplace and leaving yourself logged on while going about RL business would have an impact. If you really want to make a point you should delete all you items. Delete one character per day until you have none left and quit the game... Now that, on a large scale, would be a demonstration and probably worth acknowledgment.
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  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by xberto View Post
    The only thing you said that made any sense was Ghostbane.

    I didn't hear about the protest. Seems kinda funny to think sitting in the Marketplace and leaving yourself logged on while going about RL business would have an impact. If you really want to make a point you should delete all you items. Delete one character per day until you have none left and quit the game... Now that, on a large scale, would be a demonstration and probably worth acknowledgment.
    Thank you for the disrespectful and denigrating post. I'll go back to ignoring you now, since I put no worth on anything you say. Bye.
    It's definitely an N-word.

  15. #55
    Community Member DeKalbSun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xberto View Post
    The only thing you said that made any sense was Ghostbane.

    I didn't hear about the protest. Seems kinda funny to think sitting in the Marketplace and leaving yourself logged on while going about RL business would have an impact. If you really want to make a point you should delete all you items. Delete one character per day until you have none left and quit the game... Now that, on a large scale, would be a demonstration and probably worth acknowledgment.
    agreed. Even if you are just sitting on a bridge, if you are logged in you are playing the game.
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  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dandonk View Post
    Thank you for the disrespectful and denigrating post. I'll go back to ignoring you now, since I put no worth on anything you say. Bye.
    Sorry I don't mean to disrespect anyone so much as I just found the whole thing kinda funny. Seems pretty dramatic. I guess I just don't take game stuff so seriously. I just dont mind sitting back and being a consumer of the devs "creative process" (as one of the devs refered to it).
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  17. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    You listened to the whole thing and the overriding concern was the lack of discussion about the protest?

    You heard an honest answer that it didn't rock the foundations of Turbine HQ to it's core? You think maybe they should just fabricate a pseudo-sincere canned response to placate those who protested?

    We must be listening to a different Podcast. I actually felt very encouraged that given the near-miss that the saga token debacle would have been, their timing by appearing on DDOCast was an ideal opportunity for them to come out say that they don't always get it right, and they did that. They explained some of the processes they go through, and they made it clear that they took a leap of assumption on how the saga's were actually being used, and I think it's pretty obvious that they learned from it. Will they always make the decisions that I think they should going forward? Hell, no. They should of course. But they won't.

    I would like to see more of the community, development, QA and production bodies appear on more round-table discussions on any of the fan-organised sites. I think 309 was a timely opportunity for some people to get a reminder that there is a human face to the decisions that are made, not some Machiavellian Demagogs hell-bent on destroying the game that keeps them in employment.
    Excellent post. Of course.

    The protest is over. It was not very effective. Turbine actually came up with a good solution on their own. Sadly the protest was taken over early by some loudmouths with an axe to grind (some known exploiters, banned forumites) so its real message was lost in gibberish "Turbine sucks" type banter.

    Bottom line they came off great in the podcast. They answered many questions and really showed the kind of passion MANY OF US want to see. Very effectively timed and it took the wind out of the sails of the protest.

    To me the one suppressed message of the protest that I agree with is they need to do more listening... and more communicating. And the podcast was one such glowing example in my opinion.


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  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeslieWest_GuitarGod View Post
    Excellent post. Of course.

    The protest is over. It was not very effective. Turbine actually came up with a good solution on their own. Sadly the protest was taken over early by some loudmouths with an axe to grind (some known exploiters, banned forumites) so its real message was lost in gibberish "Turbine sucks" type banter.

    Bottom line they came off great in the podcast. They answered many questions and really showed the kind of passion MANY OF US want to see. Very effectively timed and it took the wind out of the sails of the protest.

    To me the one suppressed message of the protest that I agree with is they need to do more listening... and more communicating. And the podcast was one such glowing example in my opinion.
    Oh, so now we're exploiters and banned posters? Right.

    Thank you for being disrespectful. Goodbye.
    It's definitely an N-word.

  19. #59
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeslieWest_GuitarGod View Post
    Excellent post. Of course.

    The protest is over. It was not very effective. Turbine actually came up with a good solution on their own. Sadly the protest was taken over early by some loudmouths with an axe to grind (some known exploiters, banned forumites) so its real message was lost in gibberish "Turbine sucks" type banter.

    Bottom line they came off great in the podcast. They answered many questions and really showed the kind of passion MANY OF US want to see. Very effectively timed and it took the wind out of the sails of the protest.

    To me the one suppressed message of the protest that I agree with is they need to do more listening... and more communicating. And the podcast was one such glowing example in my opinion.
    Were you actually there? If so what was your toons name at the protest. I was there and the only people I recall with an ax to grind kept copying and pasting into chat that they thought crybabies only existed in WOW but I guess they are in DDO too (repeated over 100 times i might add)- which is a low level troll in attempt to instigate the protestors to a ragefest, which never occurred.

    The wind was never taken out of the sails of the protest at all. The publicity it was garnering outside of the game contributed to getting a faster response to the issue.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  20. #60
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    I would love to see this kind of thing happen regularly. Even if it's just once a month. It would be best if it had a producer, a community specialist and a dev on each time (even if it was different people each time).

    I think it would be an easy way to connect with the community at large and in the end can't do anything but good things. Well assuming that the people on the podcast have reasonable communication skills.

    As for the whole controversy on whether occupy did anything or not I honestly believe it was the gaming press that had the most to do with their rethinking of the whole precess and Occupy is what garnered that press attention so in that respect I would say it was a success.


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