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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drwaz99 View Post
    And speaking of numbers, the most shocking revelation I heard was that when they chose to use sagas as a delivery method for Vcomms, they didn't look at their "data" to even see if they were popular. And after the forum uproar they went back and saw it wasn't feasible. C'mon now.
    I have to completely agree here - what!? Turbine didn't look at its own data? Really? REALLY? Geez. Can we really trust them when they tell us which quests get run, how often?



    Quote Originally Posted by Drwaz99 View Post
    I read an interview somewhere that said Fernando was also thinking about other projects and Glin was transitioning into being the new "Producer Name but no face" of DDO. How long or if that even has happened I am not sure of.
    See, what happened there is Fernando is on the 'get my butt out of DDO Producer' role to move up the proverbial corporate ladder - just like Ms. Paiz managed to do in jumping out of 'dead end' DDO role.
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  2. #22
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drwaz99 View Post
    And speaking of numbers, the most shocking revelation I heard was that when they chose to use sagas as a delivery method for Vcomms, they didn't look at their "data" to even see if they were popular. And after the forum uproar they went back and saw it wasn't feasible. C'mon now.

    Companies pay large amounts of money to gather data that Turbine can pull for free (focus groups, trials etc) to see what their consumers prefer. They chose to ignore it. Now they could just be that oblivious and incompetent. Or they could have lied in the podcast, very well knew the numbers and decided to try to pull a fast one and see if it slipped thru.
    by offering a popular reward, I think they were trying to boost sagas and boost pack sales. it was an obvious money grab scheme and they went about it the wrong way, but it really was a good attempt. i still think sagas is one of their better ideas lately, but they need to do a better job with a storyline that makes more sense. i bet having more Eberron sagas would increase popularity. I don't really see how sagas are THAT unpopular, but I know a lot of players that run them as optional and not as forced.
    Gary Gygax quotes

    The essence of a role-playing game is that it is a group, cooperative experience.

    There is no winning or losing, but rather the value is in the experience of imagining yourself as a character in whatever genre you are involved in, whether its a fantasy game, the Wild West, secret agents or whatever else. You get to sort of vicariously experience those things.

    Role-playing isn't storytelling. If the dungeon master is directing it, its not a game.

    When AI approximates Machine Intelligence, than many online and computer run RPGs will move toward actual RPG activity. Nonetheless, that will not replace the experience of "being there" anymore than seeing a theatrical motion picture can replace the stage play.

    The secret we should never let the game masters know is that they don't need any rules.

  3. #23
    Community Member SiliconScout's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    ... Well, the first time I’ve ever watched that podcast, though I only got through about a half of it. Anyone know the time of when the issue is discussed? I didn’t hear it. ...
    This is pretty much right at the end 1:55:00 is when they start talking about it. whole conversation is pretty much 1:56:30 is about when she talks about it.

    Worth listening to the whole part though it's a good 3 minutes or so in total.


  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    i bet having more Eberron sagas would increase popularity. I don't really see how sagas are THAT unpopular, but I know a lot of players that run them as optional and not as forced.
    Well, they killed end game - Sagas were basically all at end game. End game is much harder for Casuals to Solo, so who was going to run them? The Vets they just banned? Or the ones they encouraged to TR and are on the TR bandwagon again?

    Just like they underestimated Sagas, I think they underestimated Eberron and the fact that it should have been updated just as much as Eveningstar expanded. In fact, if you were going to add content to Eveningstar, the counter-balance of adding 1 saga at a time (assuring they work) to Eberron would have made more sense, imo. I mean, the idea was to broaden the content players run, not limit it, right?
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiliconScout View Post
    This is pretty much right at the end 1:55:00 is when they start talking about it. whole conversation is pretty much 1:56:30 is about when she talks about it.

    Worth listening to the whole part though it's a good 3 minutes or so in total.
    Very worth listening to those three minutes, yes.

    Very insensitive and off-handish denigration of the protesters, IMO. If a "Senior Community Specialist" (IIRC) doesn't have anything respectful to say about three hundred plus dedicated gamers voicing their concerns by NOT playing the game, maybe it's better to not say anything about it.
    <seemingly offensive Army of Darkness quote>

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Certon View Post
    Link to DDOCast 309 on Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxGBNAciMwM

    In DDOCast 309, which was a 2+ hour discussion with Producer Glin, Tolero, and Cordovan about where DDO was headed, (more specifically to talk about TR'ing and the changes it was going through) it was mentioned very briefly that the devs noticed the sit-in protests players were staging in the marketplace, but it was mentioned in such a backhanded manner, that I found it both emotionally detached and unprofessionally executed.
    You listened to the whole thing and the overriding concern was the lack of discussion about the protest?

    You heard an honest answer that it didn't rock the foundations of Turbine HQ to it's core? You think maybe they should just fabricate a pseudo-sincere canned response to placate those who protested?

    We must be listening to a different Podcast. I actually felt very encouraged that given the near-miss that the saga token debacle would have been, their timing by appearing on DDOCast was an ideal opportunity for them to come out say that they don't always get it right, and they did that. They explained some of the processes they go through, and they made it clear that they took a leap of assumption on how the saga's were actually being used, and I think it's pretty obvious that they learned from it. Will they always make the decisions that I think they should going forward? Hell, no. They should of course. But they won't.

    I would like to see more of the community, development, QA and production bodies appear on more round-table discussions on any of the fan-organised sites. I think 309 was a timely opportunity for some people to get a reminder that there is a human face to the decisions that are made, not some Machiavellian Demagogs hell-bent on destroying the game that keeps them in employment.

  7. #27
    The Hatchery Galeria's Avatar
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    The extreme comments here on the forum, the overriding negativity, has a lot to do with the fact that Turbine is very careful to pretend they are ignoring the players.

    Players are an abstract notion, a buzzing cloud if you will, that sometimes get annoyed and require minor alterations of the grand plan in order to placate their unreasonableness.

    If Turbine actually admitted that they paid any attention to actual real players and took the time to respond to concerns, obviously, there would be anarchy and chaos all around.

    There are people who are really good at relating to a community, at handling public relations and turning potential unrest into positive energy... but Turbine has not hired those people. Their official strategy of "no response unless we are absolutely forced into a corner and have no other choice but to communicate with the... ew... players," has generated a lot more animosity than the actual game changes.
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  8. #28
    Community Member Golddragon87's Avatar
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    At least they are communicating? I am not a fan of the format of a 2 hour Podcast but it is something. I think a dialogue on the forums would have the most impact from a customer relations standpoint. Most gamers do not listen to podcasts plain and simple. You could have a very heart felt discussion about anything but if nobody is there to hear it what is the point? I have not had the time to hear this podcast yet but I hope to do so tonight. I may comment later upon what I heard.
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  9. #29
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    It's actually pretty funny that the Turbine community relations team is more dismissive and insulting of people protesting in-game on a bridge than the trolls living under that bridge. Woot way to go Turbine! It is hard for your community relations team to build bridges with the player community when they are busy burning them.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galeria View Post
    The extreme comments here on the forum, the overriding negativity, has a lot to do with the fact that Turbine is very careful to pretend they are ignoring the players.

    Players are an abstract notion, a buzzing cloud if you will, that sometimes get annoyed and require minor alterations of the grand plan in order to placate their unreasonableness.

    If Turbine actually admitted that they paid any attention to actual real players and took the time to respond to concerns, obviously, there would be anarchy and chaos all around.

    There are people who are really good at relating to a community, at handling public relations and turning potential unrest into positive energy... but Turbine has not hired those people. Their official strategy of "no response unless we are absolutely forced into a corner and have no other choice but to communicate with the... ew... players," has generated a lot more animosity than the actual game changes.
    damn!!!! I stepped in dog waste i will actually have to wash my shoe off........*shudders* damn dogs!!!

  11. #31
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    Default Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    before Producer Glins response to the TR changes, we had 300 members in the protest guild and most of them were active in the 24 hours prior. they took notice to that but it was bad publicity for them and what surrounded that protest with posted sub cancellations on the forums and doom threads that i suspect they didn't want to go into details with. i personally was on that bridge for an entire week and it was a very peaceful demonstration.
    You guys are freaking hilarious! You're not real citizens protesting a real government in a mannor that can have real consequences! You weren't gonna get anybody impeached, and none of you risked imprisonment or worse. With no risk on your behalf, what did you really expect to be rewarded with? A public statement that their entire motivation for altering their TR plans was due entirely to the dedicated efforts of a tiny fraction of the playerbase spending as much as a week (in a game) hanging out on a bridge on the least populated server (in a game) being social, playing trivia and squawking on the (game's) forums? You're insulted they didn't take enough notice and give enough public credit via the DDO Cast? Here's a question: how many non-forum dwelling players were actually aware of your "protest" on Wayfinder?

    Just be happy knowing you got what you wanted in terms of Turbines rehandling of the E/I TR & CoV acquisition systems. Pat yourself on the back, pride yourself in knowing it was all because of you, and accept the that for PR purposes they simply can't acknowledge the key role and undeniably huge impact you had on the whole decision making process.
    Last edited by IWPlatinumPlatypus; 11-08-2013 at 03:05 AM.
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow - btw, do you have change for 10 million population?

  12. #32
    Community Member Golddragon87's Avatar
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    Default I wonder?

    How many IP addresses I can generate and how many "dummy" accounts I can make for a 1 man protest? If 300 is the number to beat I bet if I wanted to dedicate half a dozen computers and about 8 hours of my time I could stage a "massive" 1 man protest. But it would sure be frustrating trying to keep them all from going afk. Hmm Maybe put a large fan on the table so it vibrates the mice? Yup I have officially lost it.
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  13. #33
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    You guys are firckin' hilarious! You're not real citizens protesting a real government in a mannor that can have real consequences! You weren't gonna get anybody impeached, and none of you risked imprisonment or worse. With no risk on your behalf, what did you really expect to be rewarded with? A public statement that their entire motivation for altering their TR plans was due entirely to the dedicated efforts of a tiny fraction of the playerbase spending as much as a week (in a game) hanging out on a bridge on the least populated server (in a game) being social, playing trivia and squawking on the (game's) forums? You're insulted they didn't take enough notice and give enough public credit via the DDO Cast? Here's a question: how many non-forum dwelling players were actually aware of your "protest" on Wayfinder?

    Just be happy knowing you got what you wanted in terms of Turbines rehandling of the E/I TR & CoV acquisition systems. Pat yourself on the back, pride yourself in knowing it was all because of you, and accept the that for PR purposes they simply can't acknowledge the key role and undeniably huge impact you had on the whole decision making process.
    actually we were there protesting the upcoming TR changes that was an obvious money grab, a needless and senseless intentional and irritating grind. many of us on that bridge didn't play DDO or spend money on DDO adding an impact to the game along with the other impacts that were going on at the same time as well. those of us that stood on the bridge to show our distaste for these changes still wanted to continue playing but were hoping to gain notice to the devs and anyone on the upper ladder. for me, it was a last straw if they continued to go with the changes and for many others as well. do you think if we instead tried talking it out with the devs that they would have changed their plans? or even changed their plans so quickly? i like to think we contributed in them changing their minds and coming up with a better system that benefits both sides.

    i never said i was insulted. i actually briefly explained why they didn't mention much about the protest. they didn't want to draw attention to it when there was some bad publicity and a lot of negativity on the forums. we were there for a good cause trying a method that could help make DDO better, get Turbine to listen and instead you take it to the extreme and laugh about it. when you post ideas on the forums to make DDO better, should i than laugh at it too and say "its just a game not real life"? yeah, because that has a history of working out well.
    Gary Gygax quotes

    The essence of a role-playing game is that it is a group, cooperative experience.

    There is no winning or losing, but rather the value is in the experience of imagining yourself as a character in whatever genre you are involved in, whether its a fantasy game, the Wild West, secret agents or whatever else. You get to sort of vicariously experience those things.

    Role-playing isn't storytelling. If the dungeon master is directing it, its not a game.

    When AI approximates Machine Intelligence, than many online and computer run RPGs will move toward actual RPG activity. Nonetheless, that will not replace the experience of "being there" anymore than seeing a theatrical motion picture can replace the stage play.

    The secret we should never let the game masters know is that they don't need any rules.

  14. #34
    Community Member Bimbelbo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golddragon87 View Post
    How many IP addresses I can generate and how many "dummy" accounts I can make for a 1 man protest? If 300 is the number to beat I bet if I wanted to dedicate half a dozen computers and about 8 hours of my time I could stage a "massive" 1 man protest. But it would sure be frustrating trying to keep them all from going afk. Hmm Maybe put a large fan on the table so it vibrates the mice? Yup I have officially lost it.
    There's no problem with being afk. Most if not all of the "protest" characters on the bridge are free fake accounts probably running in a seperate box 24/7 so that the "real" persons behind it can keep playing with their real accounts. Should go there and take a look if you don't believe me. It's not really people sacrificing time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    People are absolutely working on it at the moment.

  15. #35
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bimbelbo View Post
    There's no problem with being afk. Most if not all of the "protest" characters on the bridge are free fake accounts probably running in a seperate box 24/7 so that the "real" persons behind it can keep playing with their real accounts. Should go there and take a look if you don't believe me. It's not really people sacrificing time.
    as someone who was actually there for an entire week, not multi boxing or using a fake account there was a lot of chatter in guild and general channels from beginning to about a couple days after Producer Glins response. i stayed logged on 24/7. the only time i wasn't in front of my computer was bedtime and work. unlike you, i cant prove if their were a lot of fake accounts or whatever, but that's not the feeling i got.
    Gary Gygax quotes

    The essence of a role-playing game is that it is a group, cooperative experience.

    There is no winning or losing, but rather the value is in the experience of imagining yourself as a character in whatever genre you are involved in, whether its a fantasy game, the Wild West, secret agents or whatever else. You get to sort of vicariously experience those things.

    Role-playing isn't storytelling. If the dungeon master is directing it, its not a game.

    When AI approximates Machine Intelligence, than many online and computer run RPGs will move toward actual RPG activity. Nonetheless, that will not replace the experience of "being there" anymore than seeing a theatrical motion picture can replace the stage play.

    The secret we should never let the game masters know is that they don't need any rules.

  16. #36
    Community Member Golddragon87's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bimbelbo View Post
    There's no problem with being afk. Most if not all of the "protest" characters on the bridge are free fake accounts probably running in a seperate box 24/7 so that the "real" persons behind it can keep playing with their real accounts. Should go there and take a look if you don't believe me. It's not really people sacrificing time.
    I figured as much hence my satire of doing a one man protest. The only problem I foresaw was if the account is idle too long it goes afk so you would need to monitor it and move the mouse every so often. Many people talk big that were doing that protest but I think they fail to realize that since the forum is linked to their account Turbine could easily determine who was sacrificing time and who was all talk. Not that Turbine would have cared either way about "300" people in a game containing many thousands. But I am willing to bet some devs got a good laugh behind the scenes at the expense of the "Spot light protestors" that where all show. Only the smartest protesters would have used a fake IP address or an alternate computer when dual boxing. Sadly I do not think that many of them if any where doing that.
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  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Well, the first time I’ve ever watched that podcast, though I only got through about a half of it. Anyone know the time of when the issue is discussed? I didn’t hear it.

    I can usually get a “feel” of a person after listening to them talk. It comes from years of dealing with megalomaniacs, sociopaths, and one-offs in the geekaday world of software development.

    I will say this: it appears that Cordovan and Tolero genuinely care about the game, its direction, and the concerns of the player-base.

    And I think that’s about all I’ll say.
    I echo this 100%. They definitely care about this game and have passion for it, I think it is in very good hands.

    And why would they care or be influenced what a couple hundred occupiers thought? A couple hundred people out of the tens of thousands that play the game? Come on. If anything the vocal minority ruin the game for the silent majority, just look at the Mabar shutdown. I think the game is in good hands, they just need to block out the white noise and stick with their plan. I personally have really enjoyed DDO in 2013. Great new loot, +5 tomes from three event raid completions and what looks to be a pretty exciting new TR and ETR system. Plus I'll be able to pick up that shadow expansion in a few weeks when they discount if half off for thanksgiving or Christmas sale. The bottom line is you can always find stuff to complain about but if you look at it from a broader perspective things are going pretty well.

  18. #38
    Community Member Rakuda13's Avatar
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    This pod cast showed how unconnected everybody at Turbine is.
    TR has taken over DDO,at least the LFMS. only 1 in 10 of the LFMs are none TR train groups.
    They cant do The Pit,or CChamber. Both those quests are easy,the only way it takes over an hour on either one is if you are going blind. WIKI shows you how to complete them.If you dont use wiki it doesnt matter as you cant go anywhere except through the quest to the finish.Even the pit restricts you to just going to the next step.
    They dont understand how dumb Titan raid is,any raid that is completed involving a piking ladder is a failed raid. Even if you dont have 8 people on the ladder what is there for them to do? You cant hurt the Titan,you have 8 people to heal the three or four doing the raid? Is that the plan when this was thought up? Was everybody supposed to be running crystals? It one of those moves where the DM forces you to do something because he wanted you HAVE to do it.Go read about the new quest which also features things you cant avoid because the DM makes you take damage from a trap that you cant avoid or spot or disarm and goes off while the DM is talking.

    The main guy has only TR twice? He also said he had ONE toon that TRed twice. He just makes a new toon. Well if i was aloud to have unlimited toons I might do the same thing.
    The didnt touch on loot,try to start from scratch with a toon like a new player would have. I just did it and its terrible. The gear from gen loot now makes it hard to run with any LFM that has TRs in it. The loot from a TR that got loot gen from past lives is %80 better than what we have no showing up in chests.Im not talking twink gear.I have two first life lvl6 Artis,one pre update 19 and one after. The update 19 Arti is junk when compared with the pre update 19 gear Arti.And you cant get good gear from the AH for less than 250000 Plat.
    It much tougher now for a new person to do anything in DDO with only Ghost bane polluting the chests.Sure you can solo all day with a new toon,but actually joining a LFM that is %90 Elite only at level full of TRs and your in sever Gimpland.
    It seems the devs in the video dont play anything other than what they want to play,They sure dont seem to play from LFMs. They dont seem to have had to sit around and wait for a Necro group to fill on elite because %90 of people are playing TRs and want to keep a streak. Sure i can run some F2P stuff and fill in seconds,but I would like to play something that I payed for sometimes.

    Untill I see a DEV post a LFM,actually play with real people,and post it on youtube will i believe that they know anything about playing DDO in anyway other than how they play it.Which is a shame because if they actually played with the customer they would have know years ago the TR is so popular.
    I liked the pod cast,it showed really what is going on that i dont have to look forward to. Nothing that is changing is interesting to me. I liked shadowfell because it was new quests,thats it.
    So update 2o will have two new quest, thats the only news worth hearing in the whole 2 hour pod cast.

  19. #39
    Community Member Golddragon87's Avatar
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    After Listening to the podcast I have come to a surprising conclusion. Telero and Cordovan seem to actually care about the game. There was sincere passion coming from them in the podcast. You cannot fake that. Glin was a hard read and I am willing to bet he is just not as accustomed to interviews or may not have as strong of interpersonal skills. Which would make sense since as he is a developer and not in a community outreach role. The devs may not always communicate as much as we would like but they seem to care about the game. I am not vouching for competence but I do see good intentions. Now If only there was communication.
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  20. #40
    Community Member lyrecono's Avatar
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    If turbine refuses to listen to their customers on the forum, why don't we use the route that got us ghost banes?
    everybody create 3 acounts a day and destroy them, fill in the survey and bam, in a few months, instant good endgame gear and hopefully a worthy loot creator

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