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  1. #1
    Community Member Certon's Avatar
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    Default DDOCast ep. 309 review and concerns.

    Link to DDOCast 309 on Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxGBNAciMwM

    In DDOCast 309, which was a 2+ hour discussion with Producer Glin, Tolero, and Cordovan about where DDO was headed, (more specifically to talk about TR'ing and the changes it was going through) it was mentioned very briefly that the devs noticed the sit-in protests players were staging in the marketplace, but it was mentioned in such a backhanded manner, that I found it both emotionally detached and unprofessionally executed.

    These players are so passionate about a game they play that they used their free time to sit around in a static zone and do nothing but protest the changes you had made to the Reincarnation system on the Lammania server, and you had the gall to wave them away in a comment that shows how out of touch you are with the community-at-large. I must paraphrase here, but you said in essence that you would never have known it was occurring but someone happened to stumble across it and bring it to your attention. How unimportant these 'players' seemed in that very moment.

    You addressed the TR changes, and most of us are grateful for that, But in two hours you failed to mention the elephant in the room even once: itemization. If you pay attention to the forums, you do not make that very clear, because the discussion of the month was TR and the new direction you have taken with items.

    Your entire community relations team (if there is more than one person, that is – we do not have a clear picture of that) has failed to connect with the playerbase on this very issue. Most of us feel punished for purchasing the Shadowfell Conspiracy expansion, not only because the adventures are exclusive and riddled with pay-to-win, but because the previous expansion's itemization was snatched out of our very hands. In essence, you got a new Dungeon Master who turned the world upon its ear.

    I listened to the whole podcast. Every second. You did nothing to alleviate the concerns of the people who were baited into your product and who have made substantial financial contributions, only to have things switched out from under them. You dealt with a crisis in the half-hearted manner of a Dungeon Master forced to admit that perhaps he was wrong. This feeling was exacerbated by the fact that one of the producers wouldn't even show his face on video, like a man trying to hide from news cameras by draping the jacket over his head. It was stark, endless, and it felt forced.

    It is this reviewers humble opinion that as a community relations team, you have failed to execute your intended purpose in any meaningful manner. You are destroying your brand's reputation, and in the end, it seems like you just don't care.

    I hope I'm wrong.
    Last edited by Certon; 11-07-2013 at 12:03 PM.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Certon View Post
    Link to DDOCast 309 on Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxGBNAciMwM

    In DDOCast 309, which was a 2+ hour discussion with Producer Glin, Tolero, and Cordovan about where DDO was headed, (more specifically to talk about TR'ing and the changes it was going through) it was mentioned very briefly that the devs noticed the sit-in protests players were staging in the marketplace, but it was mentioned in such a backhanded manner, that I found it both emotionally detached and unprofessionally executed.

    These players are so passionate about a game they play that they used their free time to sit around in a static zone and do nothing but protest the changes you had made to the Reincarnation system on the Lammania server, and you had the gall to wave them away in a comment that shows how out of touch you are with the community-at-large. I must paraphrase here, but you said in essence that you would never have known it was occurring but someone happened to stumble across it and bring it to your attention. How unimportant these 'players' seemed in that very moment.
    I have to agree that I was pretty shocked by the response to the protest. I would be tempted to say that maybe they didn't want to focus too much attention on the protest in order to avoid encouraging that type of response in the future, except that it was stated that they didn't even know the basic facts about the protest. They thought that it only went on for 1 day, for instance. So clearly the protest simply wasn't of concern or even something to be looked into. I can't imagine any other entity that becomes aware that a number of their constituents are mounting a protest and the only response is "Oh, interesting".

  3. #3
    Community Member Certon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    I have to agree that I was pretty shocked by the response to the protest. I would be tempted to say that maybe they didn't want to focus too much attention on the protest in order to avoid encouraging that type of response in the future, except that it was stated that they didn't even know the basic facts about the protest. They thought that it only went on for 1 day, for instance. So clearly the protest simply wasn't of concern or even something to be looked into. I can't imagine any other entity that becomes aware that a number of their constituents are mounting a protest and the only response is "Oh, interesting".
    Yes, very bad form. It was almost Marie Antoinette-ish in its execution.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Certon View Post
    Yes, very bad form. It was almost Marie Antoinette-ish in its execution.
    "Let them have Obscenity."

    Meanwhile the peasants only have Ghostbane.

  5. #5
    Community Member HernandoCortez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Certon View Post
    Link to DDOCast 309 on Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxGBNAciMwM

    In DDOCast 309, which was a 2+ hour discussion with Producer Glin, Tolero, and Cordovan about where DDO was headed, (more specifically to talk about TR'ing and the changes it was going through) it was mentioned very briefly that the devs noticed the sit-in protests players were staging in the marketplace, but it was mentioned in such a backhanded manner, that I found it both emotionally detached and unprofessionally executed.

    These players are so passionate about a game they play that they used their free time to sit around in a static zone and do nothing but protest the changes you had made to the Reincarnation system on the Lammania server, and you had the gall to wave them away in a comment that shows how out of touch you are with the community-at-large. I must paraphrase here, but you said in essence that you would never have known it was occurring but someone happened to stumble across it and bring it to your attention. How unimportant these 'players' seemed in that very moment.

    You addressed the TR changes, and most of us are grateful for that, But in two hours you failed to mention the elephant in the room even once: itemization. If you pay attention to the forums, you do not make that very clear, because the discussion of the month was TR and the new direction you have taken with items.

    Your entire community relations team (if there is more than one person, that is – we do not have a clear picture of that) has failed to connect with the playerbase on this very issue. Most of us feel punished for purchasing the Shadowfell Conspiracy expansion, not only because the adventures are exclusive and riddled with pay-to-win, but because the previous expansion's itemization was snatched out of our very hands. In essence, you got a new Dungeon Master who turned the world upon its ear.

    I listened to the whole podcast. Every second. You did nothing to alleviate the concerns of the people who were baited into your product and who have made substantial financial contributions, only to have things switched out from under them. You dealt with a crisis in the half-hearted manner of a Dungeon Master forced to admit that perhaps he was wrong. This feeling was exacerbated by the fact that one of the producers wouldn't even show his face on video, like a man trying to hide from news cameras by draping the jacket over his head. It was stark, endless, and it felt forced.

    It is this reviewers humble opinion that as a community relations team, you have failed to execute your intended purpose in any meaningful manner. You are destroying your brand's reputation, and in the end, it seems like you just don't care.

    I hope I'm wrong.
    Perfect. Well said.

    This shows us exactly how much they care about their playerbase.
    I've bought Shadowfail, and I'm done spending money in this game. I doubt things will get better.
    EXTREME PREJUDICE™ - by Turbine.

    GHOSTBANE™ - by Turbine.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Certon View Post
    This feeling was exacerbated by the fact that one of the producers wouldn't even show his face on video, like a man trying to hide from news cameras by draping the jacket over his head.
    Or he was participating from a computer which didn't have a webcam.

    Not everything is a conspiracy.

  7. #7
    Hero DanteEnFuego's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oradafu View Post
    "Let them have Obscenity."

    Meanwhile the peasants only have Ghostbane.
    This is worthy of a Riposte...
    "The lion cannot protect himself from traps, and the fox cannot defend himself from wolves. One must therefore be a fox to recognize traps, and a lion to frighten wolves." Niccolò Machiavelli
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  8. #8
    Community Member Kalimah's Avatar
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    Let them eat siberys cake!!111!!1!!
    The blade itself incites to deeds of violence.
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  9. #9
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    I feel very sad that Turbine thinks so little of such a large demonstration (hundreds of players) for so long a time (several days).

    We made a peaceful protest in order to bring attention to our concerns. We felt that these were not being heard.

    Belittling players for making a peaceful, strong and social protest is not my idea of good community relations skills.

    I want to thank everyone who was part of the protest for making it one of the best times I've had in DDO. I feel sad that Turbine is belittling that, but it does not change the fact that I think it was right, warranted and a great experience.

    But it does shake what little faith in Turbine's community relations I had left.

    And in conclusion because it was missing in this post: Ghostbane.
    It's definitely an N-word.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darthsarlacc View Post
    The best part was the comment that Turbine takes notice when new people and lurkers start posting on the forums. I laughed for almost two min after that.

    The forum regulars were so wrong to think anyone cares what they have to say.

    The little boy who cried wolf and all that, HAHA.
    So if I want to express an opinion to the devs I should go crate a new free account first?

  11. #11
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Well, the first time I’ve ever watched that podcast, though I only got through about a half of it. Anyone know the time of when the issue is discussed? I didn’t hear it.

    I can usually get a “feel” of a person after listening to them talk. It comes from years of dealing with megalomaniacs, sociopaths, and one-offs in the geekaday world of software development.

    I will say this: it appears that Cordovan and Tolero genuinely care about the game, its direction, and the concerns of the player-base.

    And I think that’s about all I’ll say.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post

    And I think that’s about all I’ll say.
    Let the dark-side of the troll-force flow through you and then post again.

  13. #13
    Community Member Certon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Well, the first time I’ve ever watched that podcast, though I only got through about a half of it. Anyone know the time of when the issue is discussed? I didn’t hear it.

    I can usually get a “feel” of a person after listening to them talk. It comes from years of dealing with megalomaniacs, sociopaths, and one-offs in the geekaday world of software development.

    I will say this: it appears that Cordovan and Tolero genuinely care about the game, its direction, and the concerns of the player-base.

    And I think that’s about all I’ll say.
    Buuuuut... there's a but there... I can feel it.

  14. #14
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Certon View Post
    Buuuuut... there's a but there... I can feel it.
    Did I mention I like pizza?

    Pizza is good. Yum.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Certon View Post
    Link to DDOCast 309 on Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxGBNAciMwM

    In DDOCast 309, which was a 2+ hour discussion with Producer Glin, Tolero, and Cordovan about where DDO was headed, (more specifically to talk about TR'ing and the changes it was going through) it was mentioned very briefly that the devs noticed the sit-in protests players were staging in the marketplace, but it was mentioned in such a backhanded manner, that I found it both emotionally detached and unprofessionally executed.

    These players are so passionate about a game they play that they used their free time to sit around in a static zone and do nothing but protest the changes you had made to the Reincarnation system on the Lammania server, and you had the gall to wave them away in a comment that shows how out of touch you are with the community-at-large. I must paraphrase here, but you said in essence that you would never have known it was occurring but someone happened to stumble across it and bring it to your attention. How unimportant these 'players' seemed in that very moment.

    You addressed the TR changes, and most of us are grateful for that, But in two hours you failed to mention the elephant in the room even once: itemization. If you pay attention to the forums, you do not make that very clear, because the discussion of the month was TR and the new direction you have taken with items.

    Your entire community relations team (if there is more than one person, that is – we do not have a clear picture of that) has failed to connect with the playerbase on this very issue. Most of us feel punished for purchasing the Shadowfell Conspiracy expansion, not only because the adventures are exclusive and riddled with pay-to-win, but because the previous expansion's itemization was snatched out of our very hands. In essence, you got a new Dungeon Master who turned the world upon its ear.

    I listened to the whole podcast. Every second. You did nothing to alleviate the concerns of the people who were baited into your product and who have made substantial financial contributions, only to have things switched out from under them. You dealt with a crisis in the half-hearted manner of a Dungeon Master forced to admit that perhaps he was wrong. This feeling was exacerbated by the fact that one of the producers wouldn't even show his face on video, like a man trying to hide from news cameras by draping the jacket over his head. It was stark, endless, and it felt forced.

    It is this reviewers humble opinion that as a community relations team, you have failed to execute your intended purpose in any meaningful manner. You are destroying your brand's reputation, and in the end, it seems like you just don't care.

    I hope I'm wrong.

    There might have been something a bit backhanded about Tolero's comment. Yet, I think the only reason it would have been a good idea for her to change what she said is because she is the community specialist for ddo. Given her position, it may have been bad form to speak so honestly about the Wayfinder protest, and not make the protesters on Wayfinder feel like what they were doing was really important, or least just as important to the decision making process at Turbine as all the suggestions people posted on the forums. Thus, her politically inept maneuver might well have made Machiavelli cringe. So, I guess part of the concern here is that the folks at Turbine aren't quite Machiavellian enough for some players.

    At any rate, I think Tolero's intended message in the episode of ddocast was basically positive. The message I took her to be expressing is that the folks at Turbine were so responsive to the community that they were able to effect change in their development strategy before they were finished evaluating player responses to epic reincarnation.

    It might also be worth noting that Tolero's 'faux pas' suggests lessons we might take concerning protests. For instance, not every form of protest is equal. Apparently expressing your specific concerns in writing on the forums works better than standing around in the Wayfinder marketplace. We shouldn't expect every protest to be successful. You may not achieve the desired effect with your protest, if your protest is off where no one at Turbine happens to be looking. Finally, since it seems community specialists monitor forum posts with lots of contributions more closely than they monitor rather spontaneous activity on Wayfinder, contributing to forum discussions is more effective than spontaneous standing around on what is far and away the least populated server in the game. These seem to me fair inferences we can make based on what some people might view as Tolero's politically inept description of Turbine's response (or lack thereof) to the Wayfinder protest.
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  16. #16
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MonadRebelion View Post
    There might have been something a bit backhanded about Tolero's comment. Yet, I think the only reason it would have been a good idea for her to change what she said is because she is the community specialist for ddo. Given her position, it may have been bad form to speak so honestly about the Wayfinder protest, and not make the protesters on Wayfinder feel like what they were doing was really important, or least just as important to the decision making process at Turbine as all the suggestions people posted on the forums. Thus, her politically inept maneuver might well have made Machiavelli cringe. So, I guess part of the concern here is that the folks at Turbine aren't quite Machiavellian enough for some players.

    At any rate, I think Tolero's intended message in the episode of ddocast was basically positive. The message I took her to be expressing is that the folks at Turbine were so responsive to the community that they were able to effect change in their development strategy before they were finished evaluating player responses to epic reincarnation.

    It might also be worth noting that Tolero's 'faux pas' suggests lessons we might take concerning protests. For instance, not every form of protest is equal. Apparently expressing your specific concerns in writing on the forums works better than standing around in the Wayfinder marketplace. We shouldn't expect every protest to be successful. You may not achieve the desired effect with your protest, if your protest is off where no one at Turbine happens to be looking. Finally, since it seems community specialists monitor forum posts with lots of contributions more closely than they monitor rather spontaneous activity on Wayfinder, contributing to forum discussions is more effective than spontaneous standing around on what is far and away the least populated server in the game. These seem to me fair inferences we can make based on what some people might view as Tolero's politically inept description of Turbine's response (or lack thereof) to the Wayfinder protest.
    Or she missed the significance of the protest in the first place.

    Again, she seems to give a **** about the game, and the players. However, what I found somewhat troubling was a lot of talk about using “numbers” and “data” to debate direction.

    Where do these numbers come from? Who gets these surveys? It obviously isn’t on the forums, because the General area – where a lot of the overt complaints are being posted – has nothing. I’m looking around the forums and I saw NOTHING that had to do with things like whether we liked the random lootgen system or not. So, where are they getting these numbers?

    They certainly haven’t asked me anything, nor have they sent me a survey, or as far as I can recall offered to have me participate in one. So it lends one to wonder where these “numbers” and “data” being discussed are coming from.

    Comments in the forums? I really don’t think so.

  17. #17
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    before Producer Glins response to the TR changes, we had 300 members in the protest guild and most of them were active in the 24 hours prior. they took notice to that but it was bad publicity for them and what surrounded that protest with posted sub cancellations on the forums and doom threads that i suspect they didn't want to go into details with. i personally was on that bridge for an entire week and it was a very peaceful demonstration.

  18. #18
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    From what I took away from Tolero’s comment was that she personally was aware of the issue, because she had been monitoring the forums. And, when she saw what a fuss was being made she notified people who could/should make a change to the proposed action.

    So, she was aware of the protest over the weekend, but the people who could fix the issue were not aware of it until Tuesday. This being after Tolero had made it known that something needed to be done and action was being taken to resolve the issue. The point being that the protest itself was not as instrumental for initiating action as the form posts related to the issue were.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Let the dark-side of the troll-force flow through you and then post again.
    LMAO. Love it.

    Op -

    Welcome to the new Turbine. I mean the old Turbine. Oh, I just mean Turbine.

    Tolero was circumspect a bit in her comments on the protest but I appreciate she was willing to bring it up in the context she didn't realize its momentum when it started and continued. The bigger issue, to me, was the Producer's response, or perhaps lack thereof? Glin is the visionary of this game, not Tolero. Worrying about her response is minor compared to his.

    There was a lot of talk about how important the player perspective is and how it is taken into account in game decisions and how difficult it can be to make "all the players happy, all the time." I have to say though, in going through my game change thread, it certainly seems as though player input is taken into account - but often as an afterthought.

    I would add, and I will call out Fernando on this, that there has been a vision problem in this game for some time - a lack of telling players the real vision for the future and undertaking projects no one asked for all the while being unable to get old projects to work as they should.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post

    Again, she seems to give a **** about the game, and the players. However, what I found somewhat troubling was a lot of talk about using “numbers” and “data” to debate direction.

    Where do these numbers come from? Who gets these surveys? It obviously isn’t on the forums, because the General area – where a lot of the overt complaints are being posted – has nothing. I’m looking around the forums and I saw NOTHING that had to do with things like whether we liked the random lootgen system or not. So, where are they getting these numbers?
    I have to agree. I don't think there much "care" left for the game outside of it pays their personal bills. (it's a paycheck and that's all) There's no passion left, or if there is, it's swallowed by the gaping hole of complacency and ineptitude.

    And speaking of numbers, the most shocking revelation I heard was that when they chose to use sagas as a delivery method for Vcomms, they didn't look at their "data" to even see if they were popular. And after the forum uproar they went back and saw it wasn't feasible. C'mon now.

    Companies pay large amounts of money to gather data that Turbine can pull for free (focus groups, trials etc) to see what their consumers prefer. They chose to ignore it. Now they could just be that oblivious and incompetent. Or they could have lied in the podcast, very well knew the numbers and decided to try to pull a fast one and see if it slipped thru.

    Either way it really shows just how much they value our playing and support. Not much more than you value that dollar in your pocket. It's just a dollar. It's kinda just there, you wouldn't be to bummed if you accidentally lost it. But it's good for a double cheeseburger at McDonalds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hafeal View Post

    I would add, and I will call out Fernando on this, that there has been a vision problem in this game for some time - a lack of telling players the real vision for the future and undertaking projects no one asked for all the while being unable to get old projects to work as they should.
    I read an interview somewhere that said Fernando was also thinking about other projects and Glin was transitioning into being the new "Producer Name but no face" of DDO. How long or if that even has happened I am not sure of.
    Last edited by Drwaz99; 11-07-2013 at 05:24 PM.

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