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  1. #1
    Community Member HatsuharuZ's Avatar
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    Default The reason why druid animal-form melee attacks are spells

    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...-attack-damage

    Scroll down to post #14, Varg's post.



    Some druid attacks are listed as spells so there is a choice between spellcasting and melee. If you want all the attacks for Wolf, you give up spell slots for doing other things. You can change your mind in town, but not in the middle of a dungeon.

    *sighs*

    4 Reasons why this was and is a bad idea:

    1) Druids can only heal themselves from their spell points or potions while in animal form.
    2) This mechanic makes druids the only class that has to use spell points to perform melee attacks. Fighters don't need to use spell points for Cleave or Stunning Blow, do they?
    3) Being raged or under the effects of an anti-magic field prevents these claw and biting attacks from being used.
    4) Spell cooldown penalties from being in animal form and stances like Combat Expertise or Resilience stack.
    Last edited by HatsuharuZ; 11-07-2013 at 04:29 PM.

  2. #2
    Bwest Fwiends Memnir's Avatar
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    Since Druids were introduced I've felt this was a terrible design choice - and is one of the main reasons why I don't enjoy playing Druids. Personal choice - but it is what it is.

    C'est la vie.
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  3. #3
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    I dont like it because it clashes with other arbitrary oberoni penalties for using specific stances.

    Terrible game design. I understand the developers justification that they want players to choose animal form or caster druid, but because of the arbitrary things in game that penalize casting, it was a bad idea to implement animal attacks as spells.

    UMDing a tensers scroll for a stat buff causes longer cooldowns for trip and animal attacks. Anything that prevents spell casting like rage prevents animal attacks. To understand the level of oversight here, this would be like a beholder antimagic field preventing cleave and great cleave, trip, stunning blow / fist, etc.....all because they want players to choose between animal form and caster for how the toon will be played.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by HatsuharuZ View Post
    2) This mechanic makes druids the only class that has to use spell points to perform melee attacks. Fighters don't need to use spell points for Cleave or Stunning Blow, do they?
    A Paladin would like to speak to you about the only way to boost their weak attacks on non-evil mobs: the short term buffs of Zeal and Divine Favor.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Some druid attacks are listed as spells so there is a choice between spellcasting and melee. If you want all the attacks for Wolf, you give up spell slots for doing other things. You can change your mind in town, but not in the middle of a dungeon.
    I understand wanting to make this limitation, but then the attacks should be a kind of SLA with a zero spell point cost. This way the attack takes up a spell slot as desired, but doesn't cost spell points.

  6. #6
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oradafu View Post
    A Paladin would like to speak to you about the only way to boost their weak attacks on non-evil mobs: the short term buffs of Zeal and Divine Favor.
    Those are buffs. The OP is talking about needing to use spell points to trip and cleave which is basically what a druid has to do.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Those are buffs. The OP is talking about needing to use spell points to trip and cleave which is basically what a druid has to do.
    Divine Sacrifice then. Giving up HP and SP for damage that may or may not land.

  8. #8
    Community Member Ausdoerrt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oradafu View Post
    Divine Sacrifice then. Giving up HP and SP for damage that may or may not land.
    DS isn't counted as a spell and doesn't get the associated penalties.
    "People are stupid; given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. ... People's heads are full of knowledge, facts, and beliefs, and most of it is false, yet they think it all true." Terry Goodkind

  9. #9
    Community Member AzB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Those are buffs. The OP is talking about needing to use spell points to trip and cleave which is basically what a druid has to do.
    And why does the spell based trip, takedown, share a cooldown with the trip tactical feat?

  10. #10
    Community Member Hendrik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HatsuharuZ View Post

    4 Reasons why this was and is a bad idea:

    1) Druids can only heal themselves from their spell points while in animal form.
    2) This mechanic makes druids the only class that has to use spell points to perform melee attacks. Fighters don't need to use spell points for Cleave or Stunning Blow, do they?
    3) Being raged or under the effects of an anti-magic field prevents these claw and biting attacks from being used.
    4) Spell cooldown penalties from being in animal form and stances like Combat Expertise or Resilience stack.


    1. Unless they want to drink a potion.
    2. Ever hear of Monks and Ki? Also, Druids can get Temp SP when making attacks - look into it.
    3. Anti-magic should not, bug it. I will too. Only time I ran into Rage issues was while in Woad Form.
    4. There are also cooldown penalties attached to animal forms.
    Last edited by Hendrik; 11-07-2013 at 04:12 PM.

    Quote Originally Posted by hsinclair
    I heard the devs hate all wizards, bards, clerics, fighters, and fuzzy bunnies and only want us to play halfling barbarian/paladin shuriken specialists!

    It's totally true, I have a reliable source. You better reroll now.
    Adventurer, Bug Reporter, Mournlander.

  11. #11
    Community Member Hendrik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Those are buffs. The OP is talking about needing to use spell points to trip and cleave which is basically what a druid has to do.
    Druid can also use Trip without any SP cost. They don't 'have' to, they can choose to.

    In addition, plain Trip does not grant +X[W] that Druid Trip does.

    While Cleave grants +1[W], Druid Cleave, Alpha Strike, grants +3[W]/+6[W]/+10[W].

    For the extra damage, there needs to be a cost.

    Quote Originally Posted by hsinclair
    I heard the devs hate all wizards, bards, clerics, fighters, and fuzzy bunnies and only want us to play halfling barbarian/paladin shuriken specialists!

    It's totally true, I have a reliable source. You better reroll now.
    Adventurer, Bug Reporter, Mournlander.

  12. #12
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    Default yup

    No doubt about it, bad design. Luckily wolf form is very strong regardless.

    Wolf form is a lot like monk, only strong if well built, geared and played. Unfortunately staying pure isn't the way to build for wolf strength, neither is depending on the ridiculous spell attacks. Pure wis based wolf/bear is still passable powerwise if you cast a lot of aoe, but then if that's the case cold form will outshine animal forms by far in my experience.

    Should animal forms be subpar for a pure druid? I wouldn't think so, but turbine does what turbine does, unexplainable.

    Just fyi Hendrix, the "price" was there for druid well before alpha strike existed. But I agree that wolf can be very strong atm if built well, just not pure which seems illogical to me.
    Last edited by 01000010; 11-07-2013 at 04:17 PM.

  13. #13
    Community Member HatsuharuZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    1. Unless they want to drink a potion.
    Health potions aren't worth much in the middle of combat, and as a caster you'll lose spell points due to the stat penalty imposed by silver flame potions.

    2. Ever hear of Monks and Ki? Also, Druids get Temp SP when making attacks - look into it.
    Ki is an infinite resource, as long as you have enemies to hit. So is the temp SP, certainly, but you have to wait until it procs in order to get the benefit from it, unlike Ki.

    3. Anti-magic should not, bug it. I will too. Only time I ran into Rage issues was while in Woad Form.
    Which 'Rage' effect? I'm thinking of Barbarian Rage.

    4. There are also cooldown penalties attached to animal forms.
    Right, just like I said.

  14. #14
    Community Member HatsuharuZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    Druid can also use Trip without any SP cost. They don't 'have' to, they can choose to.

    In addition, plain Trip does not grant +X[W] that Druid Trip does.

    While Cleave grants +1[W], Druid Cleave, Alpha Strike, grants +3[W]/+6[W]/+10[W].

    For the extra damage, there needs to be a cost.
    Alpha Strike doesn't take up any spell slots, so I'm not too concerned about it.

    If the druid animal-form melee attacks were to be nerfed a bit as a result of making them not be spells anymore, so be it.

  15. #15
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    Druid can also use Trip without any SP cost. They don't 'have' to, they can choose to.

    In addition, plain Trip does not grant +X[W] that Druid Trip does.

    While Cleave grants +1[W], Druid Cleave, Alpha Strike, grants +3[W]/+6[W]/+10[W].

    For the extra damage, there needs to be a cost.
    The cost is the sacrifices made building for the ability itself. Those trips share a cooldown. They have to choose to jack up wis, or str. Cant optimize both. Those things should not be spell slots which get other arbitrary spell penalties for stances and other status ON TOP OF the penalty already in place for being in animal form casting spells. Theres a few reasons why the most popular animal builds arent pure or small splash, and the fact that druids get penalized for buffing themselves due to a spell cooldown on something that is not even semantically a spell but an animal attack, needs to be fixed.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  16. #16
    Community Member Hendrik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    The cost is the sacrifices made building for the ability itself. Those trips share a cooldown. They have to choose to jack up wis, or str. Cant optimize both. Those things should not be spell slots which get other arbitrary spell penalties for stances and other status ON TOP OF the penalty already in place for being in animal form casting spells. Theres a few reasons why the most popular animal builds arent pure or small splash, and the fact that druids get penalized for buffing themselves due to a spell cooldown on something that is not even semantically a spell but an animal attack, needs to be fixed.
    You can be a min/max FOTM lemming or you can build something that the player, not everyone else, finds fun and enjoy playing it.

    I would not trade my pure Druid, mainly Wolf but now more Bear form, for any other FOTM build.

    Quote Originally Posted by hsinclair
    I heard the devs hate all wizards, bards, clerics, fighters, and fuzzy bunnies and only want us to play halfling barbarian/paladin shuriken specialists!

    It's totally true, I have a reliable source. You better reroll now.
    Adventurer, Bug Reporter, Mournlander.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    You can be a min/max FOTM lemming or you can build something that the player, not everyone else, finds fun and enjoy playing it.

    I would not trade my pure Druid, mainly Wolf but now more Bear form, for any other FOTM build.
    Druids have lemming form, now? Bonuses to AC and sneak.
    http://myaccount.turbine.com

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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    You can be a min/max FOTM lemming or you can build something that the player, not everyone else, finds fun and enjoy playing it.

    I would not trade my pure Druid, mainly Wolf but now more Bear form, for any other FOTM build.

    What does that have to do with whether or not it was a good idea to implement animal-form attacks as spells?

    Also, please pass me a Two-Hearted. =D

  19. #19
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    You can be a min/max FOTM lemming or you can build something that the player, not everyone else, finds fun and enjoy playing it.
    Ahh yes, the old FOTM strawman...played completely incorrectly, as it has nothing to do with any reasoning as to why animal abilities should or should not be implemented as spells.

    People arent hybriding it because they want to be a min max lemming, they are hybriding it because there are abilities in other classes that do not suffer the double and triple penalties placed on attacks coming from the other class, because those other class abilities arent coded as spells arbitrarily due to a dev wanting to force players to choose between 2 different playstyles (which is complete oberoni in and of itself).

    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    I would not trade my pure Druid, mainly Wolf but now more Bear form, for any other FOTM build.
    Congrats on being able to tolerate double and triple penalized abilities, which dont make sense from any standpoint, lore, build, or function. Im sure youre pleased that beholder antimagic fields make it so you cant bite extra hard or trip things and believe this to be working as intended. You must enjoy that being in a stance also penalizes cooldown time on top of the fact that the animal form already does this.

    The rest of us clearly understand double and triple penalties for ability use cant possibly be how it was intended to be.
    Last edited by Chai; 11-08-2013 at 12:47 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  20. #20
    Community Member Munkenmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Im sure youre pleased that beholder antimagic fields make it so you cant bite extra hard or trip things and believe this to be working as intended. You must enjoy that being in a stance also penalizes cooldown time on top of the fact that the animal form already does this.

    The rest of us clearly understand double and triple penalties for ability use cant possibly be how it was intended to be.
    I have every belief that turbine was short sighted and out of touch enough when coding druids, that their current functionality is working exactly as intended.

    I also highly doubt they'll ever be changed.

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