Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Results 41 to 57 of 57
  1. #41
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Wisconsin, birthplace of D&D
    Posts
    21,813

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DrNuegebauer View Post
    No offence to the original post intended, but looking at his link, he rates Sorcerers and Wizards as having 'none' when it comes to heals.

    Have you actually played the game? Because if talking about a 'class' for soloing, then surely it's WF sorc or wiz for the win? And if one were to splash 2 rogue on a wizard, then it wins all your categories by achieving 'high' in all of them.
    Not to mention the PM pre that has been in the game for years now. Non self healing wizard is the minority.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  2. #42
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Under the bridge
    Posts
    5,874

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DrNuegebauer View Post
    Have you actually played the game?
    I had this thought at least every 10 seconds when listening to a DDO cast.

  3. #43
    Community Member DrNuegebauer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    1,128

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    I had this thought at least every 10 seconds when listening to a DDO cast.
    I was just trying to say it nicely...

  4. #44
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Staten Island, NY
    Posts
    12,813

    Default

    So much information missing from the analysis.

    • You label wizards and sorcerers as having no healing, which discounts both warforged with Reconstruct, and Palemasters.
    • You label wizards as being decent with locks, but sorcerers not at all, yet both have the same access to Knock, and both can get similar DCs with the spell.
    • Sorcerer saves are terrible.
    • Wizard saves are also terrible, unless they pick up Insightful Reflexes (which they should). Plus, being a PM negates many worrisome Will and Fort saves, which combined should definitely put them on better footing than sorcerers (and several other classes). The breakdown here is especially puzzling, since rangers are shown to have worse saves than wizards and sorcerers, yet they have 2 good saves (Fort/Refl vs. just Will), have Freedom of Movement, which negates many of the most problematic Will-based spells, and have Evasion.
    • Your defense analysis ignores things like access to Displacement (wizards and sorcerers), Pale Master immunities, and the incredible boost to survivability gained by not having to stand still when killing stuff (all casters).
    • There isn't enough differentiation in scale, as, for example, paladins should exhibit better self-healing than rangers, due to having Lay On Hands, class-based healing amp enhancements, and access to Cure Light Wounds (for wands, at least) for earlier healing than rangers get.
    • You do not account for crowd control at all, except to boost bards' defense assuming Fascinate.
    • You do not account for area of effect damage at all. Both AoE DPS and CC play a significant role in soloability. Clerics and favored souls owe much of their strength in this area to their having Blade Barrier, which allows them to destroy many creatures for a low cost, and do so without having to stop moving.


    Ultimately, your conclusions are ludicrously bad, with sorcerers and wizards falling well behind everyone but barbarians and fighters! Seriously? Your process should have begun with an assessment of which classes have typically been strong soloists in DDO, and then sought to figure out why, maybe shedding some light on some undervalued class.

    If my judgment seems harsh (it shouldn't if you were truly concerned with presenting a thoughtful, valuable bit of information), it's because I was genuinely interested to see such a breakdown, and was disappointed to see so many glaring omissions. Not to mention, if one Turbine employee is reading this, and apparently placing some value on it, there's a risk of other Turbine employees doing the same, and perpetuating their own faulty impressions of where class balance stands in DDO.
    Useful links: A Guide to Using a Gamepad w/ DDO / All Caster Shroud, Hard Shroud, VoD, ToD Einhander, Elochka, Ferrumrym, Ferrumdermis, Ferrumshot, Ferrumblood, Ferrumender, Ferrumshadow, Ferrumschtik All proud officers of The Loreseekers. Except Bruucelee, he's a Sentinel!

  5. #45
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Staten Island, NY
    Posts
    12,813

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnbeimnech View Post
    A pure melee is as reliant on landing crits as a rogue is on landing sneak dice, except a rogue can bypass fort much more easily than a pure melee. Advantage rogue.
    Untrue. First, melee can get by without landing crits in most situations, whereas rogues without sneak attack are (depending on build) less effective in melee than bards are. Second, bypassing Fort isn't the issue, it's landing sneak attacks reliably, which has to do with aggro.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    It looked to me as though he was addressing innate abilities, not pots, wands, or scrolls. Healing is not innate to rogues.
    With respect to DPS, my own knee-jerk thought was that he got it wrong, too. However, a rogue's ability to 'out DPS any melee' is reliant on the rogue NOT having agro. This factor is difficult to maintain with solo play, so sneak dice only add to DPS on initial attacks and bluffs. This takes away the DPS advantage, unless one focuses on mobs that can be one-shot.
    I agree; however, Assassinate (and stealth) can cover some of this, and a Radiance weapon solves most of the rest of your problems (until you get to that red named boss at the end of the quest).
    Useful links: A Guide to Using a Gamepad w/ DDO / All Caster Shroud, Hard Shroud, VoD, ToD Einhander, Elochka, Ferrumrym, Ferrumdermis, Ferrumshot, Ferrumblood, Ferrumender, Ferrumshadow, Ferrumschtik All proud officers of The Loreseekers. Except Bruucelee, he's a Sentinel!

  6. #46
    Community Member Lonnbeimnech's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    3,711

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    Untrue. First, melee can get by without landing crits in most situations, whereas rogues without sneak attack are (depending on build) less effective in melee than bards are. Second, bypassing Fort isn't the issue, it's landing sneak attacks reliably, which has to do with aggro.
    The point WAS about bypassing fort on mobs immune to crits/sneak damage, and that a rogue is going to have more ways to bypass fort than a pure melee would.


    There are so many ways to not have agro.

    Bluff

    summon a monster and use diplo to dump agro onto them

    summon a hire and sneak, they will get the argo, if you manage to pull it, hit diplo

    run down a hall collecting a bunch of mobs, much as a wizard or sorc would do it, but instead of casting firewall and dancing around, you cast glitterdust (everything that follows you inside becomes blind with no saving throw) and melee inside it. If you lead the mobs into a trap first, this is even more effective

    radII

    deception items

    stunning blow

    splashing monk and use wraps with stunning fist.

    If you are not getting sneak dice because of agro problems, the problem exists between the keyboard and the chair.

  7. #47
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Staten Island, NY
    Posts
    12,813

    Default

    Most of that doesn't come standard with the class, so may have been outside of assumptions of this thread's analysis (as poor as that was anyway).

    Neither Bluff nor Diplo last long enough to keep SA going all the time, and I find that most summons/hirelings die rather swiftly if you shed aggro onto them in anything resembling challenging content.

    Unless there is a bug in place, Glitterdust allows a Will save to negate the blindness effect, which means scrolls are going to stop being useful after only a few levels.

    Finally, Stunning Blow on a pure rogue won't have a high enough DC for a lot of quests.

    Oh, and splashing anything is, again, outside the scope of the discussion.
    Useful links: A Guide to Using a Gamepad w/ DDO / All Caster Shroud, Hard Shroud, VoD, ToD Einhander, Elochka, Ferrumrym, Ferrumdermis, Ferrumshot, Ferrumblood, Ferrumender, Ferrumshadow, Ferrumschtik All proud officers of The Loreseekers. Except Bruucelee, he's a Sentinel!

  8. #48
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    16

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    Most of that doesn't come standard with the class, so may have been outside of assumptions of this thread's analysis (as poor as that was anyway).
    This seems to be the problem with most of the comments I've seen on the thread. I agree there are some issues with the initial analysis, but a lot of those raised are assuming a specific playstyle. Not every wizard is a PM or WF for example (nor are they the only ways to get decent healing on a wizard - my own is currently doing TRs as a HElf as it gets me easy scroll access on an archmage, but that's beside the point).

    The analysis appears to be about the generalisation of what a class can do as base, rather than what it can do with specific specialisations or gear (e.g. not every rogue will have RadII easily available). It is what you can do as a base without going down specifics that get around problems, as if you start including specifics then it will get so unbelievably complex that it'd be pointless to even try.

    In the end, I think the biggest issue is probably one of playstyle - everyone has classes they are better at playing than others, so even were all the classes utterly balanced for soloing up, most would find some of them easier than others.

  9. #49
    Community Member Gizeh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    831

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    Most of that doesn't come standard with the class, so may have been outside of assumptions of this thread's analysis (as poor as that was anyway).

    Neither Bluff nor Diplo last long enough to keep SA going all the time, and I find that most summons/hirelings die rather swiftly if you shed aggro onto them in anything resembling challenging content.

    Unless there is a bug in place, Glitterdust allows a Will save to negate the blindness effect, which means scrolls are going to stop being useful after only a few levels.

    Finally, Stunning Blow on a pure rogue won't have a high enough DC for a lot of quests.

    Oh, and splashing anything is, again, outside the scope of the discussion.

    Improved Deception and bluff work on all mobs, including red and purple named ones, and not only do they let the rogue deal SA damage (increased offense), they also make the mobs turn around for a short time during which they cannot attack (increased defense).

    On my rogue I have imp. dec. on both a weapon and an accessory (according to what I have read they stack in this configuration), and the effect procs so often that I rarely have to hit my Bluff hotkey.

  10. #50

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ladislav View Post
    The analysis appears to be about the generalisation of what a class can do as base, rather than what it can do with specific specialisations or gear (e.g. not every rogue will have RadII easily available). It is what you can do as a base without going down specifics that get around problems, as if you start including specifics then it will get so unbelievably complex that it'd be pointless to even try.
    I agree with this. However, pale master is a core class feature for wizards, available to EVERY wizard in the game. It grants great defense (undead immunities, +100% stacking fort) and good self-healing.

  11. #51
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Nebraska
    Posts
    3,388

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DrNuegebauer View Post
    No offence to the original post intended, but looking at his link, he rates Sorcerers and Wizards as having 'none' when it comes to heals.

    Have you actually played the game? Because if talking about a 'class' for soloing, then surely it's WF sorc or wiz for the win? And if one were to splash 2 rogue on a wizard, then it wins all your categories by achieving 'high' in all of them.
    Warforged is a race, not a class. Take a look around your server sometime. There are far more fleshy sorcs than warforged.

  12. #52
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Staten Island, NY
    Posts
    12,813

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ladislav View Post
    This seems to be the problem with most of the comments I've seen on the thread. I agree there are some issues with the initial analysis, but a lot of those raised are assuming a specific playstyle. Not every wizard is a PM or WF for example (nor are they the only ways to get decent healing on a wizard - my own is currently doing TRs as a HElf as it gets me easy scroll access on an archmage, but that's beside the point).

    The analysis appears to be about the generalisation of what a class can do as base, rather than what it can do with specific specialisations or gear (e.g. not every rogue will have RadII easily available). It is what you can do as a base without going down specifics that get around problems, as if you start including specifics then it will get so unbelievably complex that it'd be pointless to even try.

    In the end, I think the biggest issue is probably one of playstyle - everyone has classes they are better at playing than others, so even were all the classes utterly balanced for soloing up, most would find some of them easier than others.
    There is a line, sure, but the OP is on the far side of the line from usefulness.

    Sure, not all wizards have good self healing, but there are very few non-WF wizards who don't have enough PM to heal themselves, especially now with the way trees are set-up.

    This could have been about a class' potential. Monks have potentially mediocre healing. Wizards have potentially very good healing. Sorcerers have potentially good healing (plus, they are well set-up for UMD). Fighters have no healing. Rogues have potentially mediocre healing (scrolls via UMD, a class feature).

    And if this is all about ignoring specifics...how the hell do wizards and sorcerers get listed as having good saves? They have poor Fort and Refl, no reason to invest in Dex on a wizard...their Con is good, maybe, but not so much so that you'd call their Fort good, and they have no reason to invest in Wis, so even with a good base Will save, the end result is still rather poor.
    Useful links: A Guide to Using a Gamepad w/ DDO / All Caster Shroud, Hard Shroud, VoD, ToD Einhander, Elochka, Ferrumrym, Ferrumdermis, Ferrumshot, Ferrumblood, Ferrumender, Ferrumshadow, Ferrumschtik All proud officers of The Loreseekers. Except Bruucelee, he's a Sentinel!

  13. #53
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Staten Island, NY
    Posts
    12,813

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gizeh View Post
    Improved Deception and bluff work on all mobs, including red and purple named ones, and not only do they let the rogue deal SA damage (increased offense), they also make the mobs turn around for a short time during which they cannot attack (increased defense).

    On my rogue I have imp. dec. on both a weapon and an accessory (according to what I have read they stack in this configuration), and the effect procs so often that I rarely have to hit my Bluff hotkey.
    And equipment wasn't a consideration in the discussion. All this indicates is that rogues are very reliant on certain equipment when soloing.
    Useful links: A Guide to Using a Gamepad w/ DDO / All Caster Shroud, Hard Shroud, VoD, ToD Einhander, Elochka, Ferrumrym, Ferrumdermis, Ferrumshot, Ferrumblood, Ferrumender, Ferrumshadow, Ferrumschtik All proud officers of The Loreseekers. Except Bruucelee, he's a Sentinel!

  14. #54
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Miasto Stołeczne Warszawa (The Capital City of Warsaw)
    Posts
    7,110

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    And equipment wasn't a consideration in the discussion. All this indicates is that rogues are very reliant on certain equipment when soloing.
    Every class (maybe except monk) is relain on certain equipment.

    Your barbarian won't have DPS without weapon, and your rogue won't have healing without scrolls.
    Difference is, good scrolls are at vendors, good weapons not.
    Quote Originally Posted by Originally Posted by Random Person #2 View Post
    People who exploit bugs in code are cheaters cheaters cheaters. And they are big fat ****yheads too.

  15. #55
    The Hatchery samthedagger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    The Church of the Sovereign Host
    Posts
    1,836

    Default

    Having played several druid lives, I have to say they are quite possibly my favorite solo class, especially in heroic levels once you have a druid life or two under your belt. So it would not surprise me that they are ranked high on the list. But I do agree with others who have been pointing out the ways that sorcerers and wizards can self-heal. Sorcerers are good with UMD, even if they aren't warforged. Wizards have the option of self-healing through warforged race or pale master. And either can be a halfling with the dragonmark of healing, which is easier to fit on a wizard, especially now that it only requires a single feat.

    At the very least, the poster admitted this was largely opinionated, and admitted not taking into account multiclass builds. Overall, I thought this was a great break-down of common pure builds.

  16. #56
    Community Member Munkenmo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Auckland
    Posts
    3,691

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by geoffhanna View Post
    Ever wondered which class is best for soloing?

    -> Wonder no more!
    Re: monk and healing:

    Did you forget about Wholeness of body?
    For a soloer it's awesome, every 3mins, after a fight you can virtually heal back to full hp. Regardless of light or dark path, unlimited uses per rest, only dependant on ki.

  17. #57
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Staten Island, NY
    Posts
    12,813

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fTdOmen View Post
    Re: monk and healing:

    Did you forget about Wholeness of body?
    For a soloer it's awesome, every 3mins, after a fight you can virtually heal back to full hp. Regardless of light or dark path, unlimited uses per rest, only dependant on ki.
    Wholeness is nice, but all it does is save you money on potions. In-combat healing is much more important/relevant.

    Don't get me wrong, I like Wholeness, but if I were evaluating classes, I wouldn't count that as a plus in the Healing column. Fist of Light and the Lightx3 finisher, yeah, but not Wholeness.
    Useful links: A Guide to Using a Gamepad w/ DDO / All Caster Shroud, Hard Shroud, VoD, ToD Einhander, Elochka, Ferrumrym, Ferrumdermis, Ferrumshot, Ferrumblood, Ferrumender, Ferrumshadow, Ferrumschtik All proud officers of The Loreseekers. Except Bruucelee, he's a Sentinel!

Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload