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  1. #101
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feather_of_Sun View Post
    At the end of the day, our goal is to make sure that DDO continues to be fun. If we're failing at that, we appreciate that you let us know.
    I think you guys have done a GREAT job listening to your feedback... I'm very excited about Update 20 and Epic TR, and the quest xp changes, and the xp curve changes.

    Can we have conversation about loot though? That, and a few end-game raids (or some super-tough quests with good named BtC loot), is probably the only really BIG problem left.
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    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
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    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  2. #102
    Community Member Zibowskij's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    I think you guys have done a GREAT job listening to your feedback... .
    Great lapsus rofl

  3. #103
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ancient View Post
    The new flagging quests are working as intended and therefore are right. You cling to working as intended as the ultimate authority in other threads, you don't get to switch standards now that you don't like the choice.
    The old flagging quests were also working as intended and didnt need to be messed with either. Im not switching standards. The people who waffled from "its too hard" to "its too boring" are changing standards.

    The complaints are about XP entitlement, thinly veiled around being too hard or being too boring. People didnt want to break a streak and take a 25% hit. There werent many complaints about crucible until elite streaks became the norm for leveling, because folks were perfectly happy to use the NHE system and play it on a lesser difficulty, which is also working as intended, to get it out of the way. Once BB leveling became the norm, the crucible / RWTD needs to be nerfed threads began to appear.

    So yeah, Im all for using WAI systems. NHE difficulty system is WAI. Crucible as a flagging quest since 2007 is WAI. Trying to call me out on switching standards? I havent.
    Last edited by Chai; 11-08-2013 at 12:18 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  4. #104
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    As it has been noted that this thread is being reviewed by the devs, I'd like to put in a couple of points.

    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Ghostbane (aka new random loot)
    No issue with this from me. I definitely agree that there's a couple of things that have been missed, there's a couple that appear too often, but the system really needed a revamp as things were added over time and a lot of it no longer made sense, and I personally don't mind a few teething troubles whilst a more comprehensive and better laid out system is implemented.


    The first Epic TR proposal (losing all your ED XP)
    I can't say I ever really got the complaints with this, as I don't see it as any different to heroic TR. I think I would rather run a character in an off-destiny to running them through a new life as a class that bears no relation to the character I see in my mind. My wizard is an arcane caster, not a barbarian, and whilst in a barbarian life I can't get away with that, at least in a destiny whilst I might not be at my best potential, I'll still be the same at the core and every destiny has something at least moderately useful to just about everyone.

    I like the fact it changed, as it will possibly be more enjoyable, but I think the issue raised is with the entire concept of how TR works rather than one specific part of it, and I think that the original proposal fit far better with the original concept behind heroic TR than the system now being implemented.


    The token debacle (making everyone do 50 saga's to get one TR heart)
    The original numbers were high, but everything needs a starting point and I think the fact that the devs listened to responses and changed things accordingly is exactly why this isn't a debacle. The only reason it came across as a debacle was that there were massive knee-jerk reactions rather than reasoned responses.

    On a side note, I fully support the fact that they are aiming for hearts to be at least a little harder to get. When they were first released they were actually an effort to get and required a level of sacrifice (in that you were giving up the potential to make useful augments), but currently getting them is no effort at all.

    I doubt the devs who originally designed and implemented the token system and hearts considered a point where they would be so easily obtained, and whilst it isn't a problem if people are willing to spend the time to get them, anything that is also a store item at least needs to be of some effort to get, otherwise it won't sell, and if stuff doesn't sell then ultimately that means less devs for us.


    The Shadowfail "Expansion" (Aka how to repackage two updates into a low value paid expansion, with a Cap raise that leads to nowhere and no reason or "end game" to make leveling to 28 anything but pointless, you DON'T HAVE 2 years to get to 30 and then make a new end game the game is already a ghost town late at night).
    Only if you regard the only "end game" as raids. There are two full series of enjoyable and reasonably challenging quests, each of which has a nicely done and in one case utterly massive explorer area (yes, the shadow mode can be irritating, but for me at least that doesn't impact the enjoyment). New monsters and some interesting concepts exist there.

    There's also a completely new character systemic in the Iconics, and another redone systemic in the new loot system, which I've commented on above, plus the enhancement system revamp which was very nicely implemented.

    I haven't checked which server you're on, but for myself I can't say I've seen anything of the ghost town issue, at least no more than we always get on the last run up to the next update. This is far from the worst module for such issues, and I see a lot of people both in my guild and other guilds we play with whose enthusiasm for the new quests from the last update is still there and going strong, which by this point in an update's life is frequently not the case.


    Time to talk to the player base again, time to have a DIALOG with us, not a pronouncement, not a short answer to a long post. But a continued dialog where we help you guys avoid "ghostbane'ing" the loot all up. Or crucible-ing the quest system, or Turbine-ing the reincarnation mini game that people play while they wait for a real end game.

    This is one of the things I have with your commentary on endgame. I actually regard the TR process as part of the endgame, and I think quite a clever one. Every MMO on the market has the issue that there's only so much content you can put out, therefore it is very easy for those at end game to just end up grinding the same dozen or so quests. TR means that whilst still playing your preferred characters you get a much wider variety of things to do, which can only be a good thing, and I think in many ways the setup makes it part of the endgame in its own right.

    As for the dialogue concept, there's a very obvious reason behind the short posts, which is that they are limited in what they can say. They have to be careful not to offend people, not to let out things that are still NDA, not to put out anything that is incorrect that they can be quoted on. Ultimately, it's a PR job and most of them aren't PR specialists. They come on to try to give us some feedback and assistance, but they are having to do so in a way that probably doesn't come naturally to them (I've not known all that many programmers who are great at PR). I suspect they'd love to have a frank discussion with people, but I'd actually say that it is exactly the knee jerk reactions many made to things such as the saga/heart issue that is why they can't.

  5. #105
    Community Member Thar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Someone had Producer Rowan's quote in their sig about blowing it up, or tearing the castle down with criticism if the Dev team deserves it...

    turbined ghostbaned crucibled...

    At some point we're going to be able to construct complete sentences out of names Turbine made synonymous with terrible decisions.

    Mr, Rowan I know you've just stepped into this mess and are wanting to steer it in a different direction, and are maybe in "mid U-turn" (or hopefully at least waiting at the light with the wheel cranked all the way) and us players just can't see the new direction yet because the Dev cycle is months long, but I believe we're tearing it down in near unanimity at this point.

    How often have you ever seen 99% of a games community soundly against a thing like we have been about:

    Ghostbane (aka new random loot)
    The first Epic TR proposal (losing all your ED XP)
    The token debacle (making everyone do 50 saga's to get one TR heart)
    The Shadowfail "Expansion" (Aka how to repackage two updates into a low value paid expansion, with a Cap raise that leads to nowhere and no reason or "end game" to make leveling to 28 anything but pointless, you DON'T HAVE 2 years to get to 30 and then make a new end game the game is already a ghost town late at night).

    Time to talk to the player base again, time to have a DIALOG with us, not a pronouncement, not a short answer to a long post. But a continued dialog where we help you guys avoid "ghostbane'ing" the loot all up. Or crucible-ing the quest system, or Turbine-ing the reincarnation mini game that people play while they wait for a real end game.
    The problem was so much Ghostbane which is probably the only semi useful random lootgen, it was redoing every item retro to these new changes. changing lvl's on previously looted gear, 0 lvl items, festival items, etc about a year after this occured with all armor with motu. There was a big redesign of named items and now those items are all underpowered and semi useless to random loot. ie bloodstone. who didn't grind weeks for a bloodstone and now it is eclipsed by random gen. What is the point to run desert area now? it's faster xp to do quests, it's better gear elsewhere. Unless your going back and making bloodstone seeker 8 with a slot and resigning all other loot you just looked at... then the item redesign was epic fail. no plan. Epic gianthold gear... was well recieved, and then made useless to random gen in the next update. why run egh on elite? why run the raid if the gear is subpar? make it special, and they will come.
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  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    But they DID listen... I'd be pretty frustrated, if two weeks after making changes based directly on player feedback, those same players came on the boards and said "Turbine never listens!"

    You guys are a little bit like a crazy girl-friend... "What have you done for me lately!?" "Baby, you were riding buck-naked on a zebra just last month"... "But what have you done for me lately!?" (Bonus points if you get the reference)
    That sounds like you've seen that old Sheena movie with Tanya Roberts.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drwaz99 View Post
    In my opinion, your absolutely failing that in regards to the new loot. It's bland and uninspired. You decided to irritate many of the long term players in hope of retaining a relative few that might leave DDO early or would have left anyways. Not a smart idea.
    This. The loot is dull and boring and/or extremely weak for its level (this includes the loot I saw for the coming U20), the epic past lifes are NOT worth the bother, and the lack of endgame is depressing. The one clear exception was Mabar and the +5 tomes, unfortunately the lagmonster obviously still has not been tamed there. Not having the existing loot (robe, cloak etc) updated to level 28 was rather a disappointment as well.
    Another not-so-clear exception was the 20tht DQ raid list giving shards: a great change that really should have gotten some fanfare. Any chance of some info as to whether more epic raids will get this change? Any thoughts on seals?

    Ah well, at least my non-epic alts get to see plenty of use and are slowly zooming in on 20. Since most of them are on their first life, I'll be playing them for quite a while yet.

    Greetz,
    Red Orm

  8. #108
    Community Member rest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feather_of_Sun View Post
    At the end of the day, our goal is to make sure that DDO continues to be fun. If we're failing at that, we appreciate that you let us know.
    You've certainly missed that goal. By a WIDE margin.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    The old flagging quests were also working as intended and didnt need to be messed with either. Im not switching standards. The people who waffled from "its too hard" to "its too boring" are changing standards.

    The complaints are about XP entitlement, thinly veiled around being too hard or being too boring. People didnt want to break a streak and take a 25% hit. There werent many complaints about crucible until elite streaks became the norm for leveling, because folks were perfectly happy to use the NHE system and play it on a lesser difficulty, which is also working as intended, to get it out of the way. Once BB leveling became the norm, the crucible / RWTD needs to be nerfed threads began to appear.

    So yeah, Im all for using WAI systems. NHE difficulty system is WAI. Crucible as a flagging quest since 2007 is WAI. Trying to call me out on switching standards? I havent.
    No complaints about crucible? Lol That's our selective listening chai.

    Oh, and now it's not required to flag is WAI. You should support it now, right?

  10. #110
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by feather_of_sun View Post
    i'd like to chime in and mention that i find this thread enormously helpful. Threads like this give us the pulse of the community, and help keep us aware of what the current hot button issues are. This does contribute to overall design direction: It absolutely is a goal to reduce "player pain", in whatever form it may take. That doesn't just mean fixing bugs, it also means revisiting and refining the implementation of features, adding content, and allocating development resources to where they can have the most impact.

    If sometimes it seems like developers are silent or not communicating enough, we ask that you keep the following in mind:
    As a rule, individual developers aren't able to comment on systems or content that they aren't working on. We could accidentally give out an misleading or incomplete picture of what's happening with that system, or even worse, could say something that is flat-out wrong.

    This is why (as examples) you may most often see me commenting in threads about enhancement trees, while vargouille will chime in on threads about reincarnation.

    Even though a developer may not be able to respond personally to every concern, we do read these threads, and we make every effort to push these issues to the attention of the person who needs to see them.

    At the end of the day, our goal is to make sure that ddo continues to be fun. If we're failing at that, we appreciate that you let us know.
    moar ghostbane!!!!

  11. #111
    Community Member Golddragon87's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feather_of_Sun View Post
    I'd like to chime in and mention that I find this thread enormously helpful. Threads like this give us the pulse of the community, and help keep us aware of what the current hot button issues are. This does contribute to overall design direction: it absolutely is a goal to reduce "player pain", in whatever form it may take. That doesn't just mean fixing bugs, it also means revisiting and refining the implementation of features, adding content, and allocating development resources to where they can have the most impact.

    If sometimes it seems like developers are silent or not communicating enough, we ask that you keep the following in mind:
    As a rule, individual developers aren't able to comment on systems or content that they aren't working on. We could accidentally give out an misleading or incomplete picture of what's happening with that system, or even worse, could say something that is flat-out wrong.

    This is why (as examples) you may most often see me commenting in threads about enhancement trees, while Vargouille will chime in on threads about Reincarnation.

    Even though a developer may not be able to respond personally to every concern, we do read these threads, and we make every effort to push these issues to the attention of the person who needs to see them.

    At the end of the day, our goal is to make sure that DDO continues to be fun. If we're failing at that, we appreciate that you let us know.
    +1 Thank you for open and honest communication.
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  12. #112
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schaden_freude View Post
    No complaints about crucible? Lol That's our selective listening chai.
    Previous to BB, not really. After BB yeah lots of complaints. Those complaining needed to use the WAI system in place, rather than complain to have it crucibled.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schaden_freude View Post
    Oh, and now it's not required to flag is WAI. You should support it now, right?
    Nope, it wasnt broke before, no need to fix it. There was a WAI system in place, NHE, for those who wanted it nerfed due to XP entitlement.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    The old flagging quests were also working as intended and didnt need to be messed with either. Im not switching standards. The people who waffled from "its too hard" to "its too boring" are changing standards.
    Turbine changed it, therefore it wasn't WAI.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    The complaints are about XP entitlement, thinly veiled around being too hard or being too boring. People didnt want to break a streak and take a 25% hit. There werent many complaints about crucible until elite streaks became the norm for leveling, because folks were perfectly happy to use the NHE system and play it on a lesser difficulty, which is also working as intended, to get it out of the way. Once BB leveling became the norm, the crucible / RWTD needs to be nerfed threads began to appear.
    People complaining or not complaining is irrelevant to Turbine's intent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    So yeah, Im all for using WAI systems. NHE difficulty system is WAI. Crucible as a flagging quest since 2007 is WAI. Trying to call me out on switching standards? I havent.
    Changing the flagging quest selection has nothing to do with NHE WAI or not. Curbicle as a flagging quest was not WAI, so it was changed. Your standard, and trying to ignore it... doesn't change the facts at hand.

  14. #114

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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Someone had Producer Rowan's quote in their sig about blowing it up, or tearing the castle down with criticism if the Dev team deserves it...

    turbined ghostbaned crucibled...

    At some point we're going to be able to construct complete sentences out of names Turbine made synonymous with terrible decisions.

    Mr, Rowan I know you've just stepped into this mess and are wanting to steer it in a different direction, and are maybe in "mid U-turn" (or hopefully at least waiting at the light with the wheel cranked all the way) and us players just can't see the new direction yet because the Dev cycle is months long, but I believe we're tearing it down in near unanimity at this point.

    How often have you ever seen 99% of a games community soundly against a thing like we have been about:

    Ghostbane (aka new random loot)
    The first Epic TR proposal (losing all your ED XP)
    The token debacle (making everyone do 50 saga's to get one TR heart)
    The Shadowfail "Expansion" (Aka how to repackage two updates into a low value paid expansion, with a Cap raise that leads to nowhere and no reason or "end game" to make leveling to 28 anything but pointless, you DON'T HAVE 2 years to get to 30 and then make a new end game the game is already a ghost town late at night).

    Time to talk to the player base again, time to have a DIALOG with us, not a pronouncement, not a short answer to a long post. But a continued dialog where we help you guys avoid "ghostbane'ing" the loot all up. Or crucible-ing the quest system, or Turbine-ing the reincarnation mini game that people play while they wait for a real end game.
    I SO agree with this. I have decided to spend 0$ on Turbine points because of this. They never ask or suggest to the community...they implement then fix. It's total BS the way they handle this game. They should FIX the loot system...FIRST. It's prevalent throughout the game...they took away SO much and gave back nothing on the following patches.

  15. #115
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ancient View Post
    Curbicle as a flagging quest was not WAI, so it was changed. .
    Citation needed.

    I submit as evidence every single player who did reavers fate or TOR from 2007 up until they changed it, as working as intended during that era. 2007-2013. Wasnt broke, didnt need fixing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ancient View Post
    doesn't change the facts at hand.
    Facts? LOL - more like opinions from those who cant be bothered to actually play the game, or use systems that are already in place to mitigate the fact that they cant complete on elite. NHE system works great. People refusing to use it due to XP entitlement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ancient View Post
    Turbine changed it, therefore it wasn't WAI.
    On these grounds, you then support the entirety of the fail of the new itemization, based on the exact same principle right? Turbine changed it so it must be WAI right? The entire idea that they put it into the game so it must be WAI is hilarious. According to this logic, every exploit they let slide from lam to live, every bug, is WAI, simply because Turbine put it into the game. LOL.
    Last edited by Chai; 11-08-2013 at 01:50 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  16. #116
    Community Member DrNuegebauer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feather_of_Sun View Post

    At the end of the day, our goal is to make sure that DDO continues to be fun. If we're failing at that, we appreciate that you let us know.
    You're failing at that.

    Why do you take systems that work, or have just been developed (TR worked, loot had just been developed) and mess them up, while painful things (ladder bugs, targeting bugs) go unchecked every update? Sure, the TR thing was recanted, but one wonders why it was even thought up? And the loot thing - will we ever get an answer from you on where all the interesting stuff went?

    Oh, and by the way, there's nothing to do at end game. You need raids with worthwhile loot.

    I don't expect you to reply, your method of operation tends to be: come out and make a grand statement, then ignore everyone who offers an opinion that might be worth listening to.

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    On these grounds, you then support the entirety of the fail of the new itemization, based on the exact same principle right? Turbine changed it so it must be WAI right? The entire idea that they put it into the game so it must be WAI is hilarious. According to this logic, every exploit they let slide from lam to live, every bug, is WAI, simply because Turbine put it into the game. LOL.
    Are you really pinning your hopes on the argument that changing the flagging quests.... was a bug? That is the best you have?

  18. #118
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    I think a lot of people overlook something essential when it comes to Crucible and flagging for Reavers. You have two active communities in DDO: groups and soloists. Crucible is nearly impossible to solo.

    I like Crucible. I don’t get where people think it is a terrible quest. Then again, I PUG or run with people I know. Yeah, it’s a tough quest, but if people are willing to stick with it, it can be pretty rewarding.

    But if I had to solo it? I’d skip flagging in GH altogether. If I am a person who solos every quest, I could care less about the raid because I solo everything. The same goes with the Amrath quests: they are nearly impossible to solo. So I assume that a lot of people skip these.

    Yeah, dying in the swim portion has issues. And yeah, the fix proposed here is rather easy. But there is more than the swim that is the issue here.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Citation needed.
    U17 Release notes:

    You must now complete the following quests for Gianthold Tor & Raid flagging:
    • Cabal for One
    • Prison of the Planes
    • Madstone Crater

  20. #120
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ancient View Post
    Are you really pinning your hopes on the argument that changing the flagging quests.... was a bug? That is the best you have?
    Nope. If you read the post, youll understand thats not what im doing. Im taking your logic that Turbine changed it so it must be WAI, and applying it to other things Turbine changed, to show you how absurd that logic is.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

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