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  1. #1
    Hero Propane's Avatar
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    Default Promoting Grouping/LFMs by bonus XP for full group.

    Hay peps-

    I have been ponding ways to promote grouping/LFMs.

    I am sure someone must have thought of this before, but if not...

    How about a 20% boost for completion with a full group? (can negotiate boost number)-

    6 people in group - extra XP-

    Hires don't count.

    The XP bonus has to be big enough to offset a death of a member / PUGGER and a little extra to make up for what would generally be a slower completion.

    Thoughts?

    Calling Sarlona my home - Guildmaster - Brotherhood of Redemption - ddoborguild.com
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  2. #2
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    ive always been against these kinds of ideas. bribing players to group together for bonus xp i don't think is the way to go. the better way to go is adjust DS higher than what it is to make the difficulties actually feel like the difficulties.
    Gary Gygax quotes

    The essence of a role-playing game is that it is a group, cooperative experience.

    There is no winning or losing, but rather the value is in the experience of imagining yourself as a character in whatever genre you are involved in, whether its a fantasy game, the Wild West, secret agents or whatever else. You get to sort of vicariously experience those things.

    Role-playing isn't storytelling. If the dungeon master is directing it, its not a game.

    When AI approximates Machine Intelligence, than many online and computer run RPGs will move toward actual RPG activity. Nonetheless, that will not replace the experience of "being there" anymore than seeing a theatrical motion picture can replace the stage play.

    The secret we should never let the game masters know is that they don't need any rules.

  3. #3
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    Default Dungeon scaling is the culprit, not exp.

    Quote Originally Posted by Propane View Post
    Hay peps-

    I have been ponding ways to promote grouping/LFMs.
    You don't need exp bonus or other ways to promote grouping. What you need, is the removal of the active deterrent to play in groups. And that is Dungeon Scaling.

    If inviting a new player to sit at the entrance doing nothing makes the quest considerably harder (or if not harder, at least longer with the inflated hps), something's seriously amiss. Additionally, a handful of quests bring a high level (up to red) of dungeon alert if the quest has full party in. Not to mention the mayhem of running the wrong way and triggering extra mobs.

    Currently a bad toon has negative impact on quest progress, even disregarding the possible -10% for deaths. No wonder good soloers don't party with anybody but other good soloers. Dungeon scaling needs to go away.

  4. #4
    Hatchery Hero BOgre's Avatar
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    As usual, you're confused about Scaling. Scaling is what happens when there are FEWER players in the group. The dungeon's difficulty is designed for a full group, and is SCALED DOWN to make it easier to shortman.

    So, what you're asking for is to universally lower quest difficulty, which is not going to happen.

    Bonus XP for full groups is a fine idea, but I can already see people running 6 multiboxes, or pugging out 5 spots right before completion... Kudos for the idea though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Towrn
    ...when the worst thing that happens when you make a mistake at your job is someone complains on the internet, you probably care a little less!

  5. #5
    Hero Propane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOgre View Post
    As usual, you're confused about Scaling. Scaling is what happens when there are FEWER players in the group. The dungeon's difficulty is designed for a full group, and is SCALED DOWN to make it easier to shortman.

    So, what you're asking for is to universally lower quest difficulty, which is not going to happen.

    Bonus XP for full groups is a fine idea, but I can already see people running 6 multiboxes, or pugging out 5 spots right before completion... Kudos for the idea though.
    What if any member was is getting a XP penalty for late entry - no bonus XP

    Calling Sarlona my home - Guildmaster - Brotherhood of Redemption - ddoborguild.com
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  6. #6
    Hatchery Hero BOgre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Propane View Post
    What if any member was is getting a XP penalty for late entry - no bonus XP
    Yes, true indeed. But there will still be those that will get very fast completions solo, with mates standing by at the door ready to enter for the full party completion.

    Not saying it's not a good idea, there will always be people maxing out whatever system gets implemented.
    Quote Originally Posted by Towrn
    ...when the worst thing that happens when you make a mistake at your job is someone complains on the internet, you probably care a little less!

  7. #7
    Community Member Sidewaysgts86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOgre View Post
    As usual, you're confused about Scaling. Scaling is what happens when there are FEWER players in the group. The dungeon's difficulty is designed for a full group, and is SCALED DOWN to make it easier to shortman.
    Tomato potato Potato Tomato. Is the glass half full or half empty? Why does it matter what way the math "Actually" goes- The end result is the same. While its not always the case, we currently have a system that on a good handfull of quests cant make it remarkably easier to solo it vs bringing along a friend or two- So much so that its not always worth the effort to a lot of people, and they dont. It discourages a lot (Albeit not everyone) of people from grouping.

    And Fwiw, as far as I know (and I readily admit this may be wrong but its what I remember being under the impression of) the dungeons are typically "balanced" for groups of 4- and scale down from there with less players, but dont scale up past that (ie 5-6). This is why those quests with just a couple of people can really suck, but full groups can steam roll through (because the scaling, imo, less than ideal- Strongly favoring solo runs or near-full group runs). For a lot of "average geared" non-uber TR'ed 1337 power gamers, this can be a tricky, difficult, and very complex game (Which lets face it- Is why a lot of us sadomasochists enjoy it! This complexity adds such a brilliant amount of diversity) , and a lot of quests can be either "solo" or "almost full" to be readily runnable for them.

    I actually like the idea of moar exp for fuller groups. So /signed onto that. 2% base for every extra player would be nice I think. Large enough to encourage, but not big enough to rapidly force "all or nothing!" groups (Or so wed hope. I must admit I currently hate the trend of "naw dawg, dont wanna ruin my elite streak...." that we have going on)

    Bonus XP for full groups is a fine idea, but I can already see people running 6 multiboxes, or pugging out 5 spots right before completion... Kudos for the idea though
    My sarcasm batteries are depleted, but are these actual concerns?
    Last edited by Sidewaysgts86; 11-03-2013 at 04:53 AM.

  8. #8
    Hatchery Hero BOgre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sidewaysgts86 View Post
    Tomato potato Potato Tomato. Is the glass half full or half empty? Why does it matter what way the math "Actually" goes
    In this case it matters because the devs can't simply swing the Scaling slider to universally make full groups ( yes, in regards to scaling that means 4+ players) easier or harder. It would require much more work to adjust quest difficulty. In fact, the last time quest difficulties were "adjusted" we had some serious bugs creep into the game, some of which are still here today. Furthermore, we are all too familiar with what Turbine considers "adjusting" difficulty nowadays, and that's Mob HP. So, all that being said, I'm a big /not signed for adjusting quest difficulty.

    I could get onboard full party xp bonus though.

    My sarcasm batteries are depleted, but are these actual concerns?
    Concerns? Not really. Just observations... predictions...
    See, people will play the game the way they want regardless of what Turbine does. So adding little gimmicks like this to the game isn't really likely to encourage grouping (the same way that adding CoV to Saga Rewards wasn't likely to encourage running Sagas). The only way to encourage grouping, The only way to encourage running content, The only way to get more people playing the game, The only way to get more people PAYing is QUALITY content. And by QUALITY I do mean everything from fun, interesting, beautiful, hand-crafted quests, to a proper, working, interesting Loot system, to bug-free Updates, to stellar GM service.

    So yeah, I'd /sign an xp bonus for full parties, but I don't really thing gimmicky mechanic changes like this are the way to go. Build better quests is the way to go.
    Quote Originally Posted by Towrn
    ...when the worst thing that happens when you make a mistake at your job is someone complains on the internet, you probably care a little less!

  9. #9
    Hero Propane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOgre View Post
    Yes, true indeed. But there will still be those that will get very fast completions solo, with mates standing by at the door ready to enter for the full party completion.

    Not saying it's not a good idea, there will always be people maxing out whatever system gets implemented.
    Thanks-

    Two things that make me think about NOT putting up an LFM to finish a group-
    1) don't know the skill of person - they die - loss 10% XP
    2) it will take extra time to fill and get started

    I believe there needs to be carrot to hang out in front of us to promoting grouping.
    The quests used to be harder (no scaling), no hires - an extra person wand whipping could make the difference between success and failure.

    Help me think of good carrot!

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  10. #10
    Bwest Fwiends Memnir's Avatar
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    Alternative suggestion: Every person in a group over the first two party members lowers potential DA by 15%.


    Just off the top of my head. I'm not sure if I'm for or against bribes to group... but I do think it's been a fundamental misstep of the design team to have made the game as solo-friendly as it is now. But, you can't really put the toothpaste back in the tube.
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  11. #11
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Memnir View Post
    Alternative suggestion: Every person in a group over the first two party members lowers potential DA by 15%.


    Just off the top of my head. I'm not sure if I'm for or against bribes to group... but I do think it's been a fundamental misstep of the design team to have made the game as solo-friendly as it is now. But, you can't really put the toothpaste back in the tube.


    Like, because, it's Memnir.
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  12. #12
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    I don't think bribing people with XP or loot is a good idea.
    It will simply rise number of multiboxers, or LFMs with: 'join for XP but don't move from entrance'.

    Meanwhile, in other games, all dungeons' inhabitants are scaled with HP and DPS against set nubmer of people.
    There is no dungeon scaling, where shortman means easier mobs.

    Finally, I don't thing there needs to be some inective for pugging.
    Quote Originally Posted by Originally Posted by Random Person #2 View Post
    People who exploit bugs in code are cheaters cheaters cheaters. And they are big fat ****yheads too.

  13. #13
    Hero Propane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Memnir View Post
    Alternative suggestion: Every person in a group over the first two party members lowers potential DA by 15%.


    Just off the top of my head. I'm not sure if I'm for or against bribes to group... but I do think it's been a fundamental misstep of the design team to have made the game as solo-friendly as it is now. But, you can't really put the toothpaste back in the tube.
    Reducing DA by 15% - that is an intresting idea....

    I don't think DA is an "issue" in a large enougth number of quests....

    Calling Sarlona my home - Guildmaster - Brotherhood of Redemption - ddoborguild.com
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  14. #14
    Hero Propane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vellrad View Post
    I don't think bribing people with XP or loot is a good idea.

    Finally, I don't thing there needs to be some inective for pugging.
    Why do you think this?

    Lack of LFM's is a common complaint I hear - especally from new people trying to learn the ropes-

    Calling Sarlona my home - Guildmaster - Brotherhood of Redemption - ddoborguild.com
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  15. #15
    Bwest Fwiends Memnir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Propane View Post
    I don't think DA is an "issue" in a large enougth number of quests....
    Fair point.
    But, just to counter, how big an issue is it to group-up in a large number of quests?


    I don't think it's a big enough issue to add an XP bonus to it. Honestly, I think it will just cause an equal number of problems as it could potentially solve. I'm envisioning LFMs advertising "Not starting till FULL 4 Bonus!"... and then just sitting there for an hour, followed by the group leader coming to the forums to complain that their groups still don't fill and it's Turbine's fault for putting in an impossible to attain feature.

    I think a reduction to DA, or a .4% loot boost per member of a group past the first two folks would be small enough, but still appealing enough of a bonus to some folks to make it worth it.


    YMMV, naturally.
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  16. #16
    Community Member mobrien316's Avatar
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    I can see the LFM's changing from "Know it! Don't die!" to "I don't care if you know it! Don't move!"
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  17. #17
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Propane View Post
    Why do you think this?

    Lack of LFM's is a common complaint I hear - especally from new people trying to learn the ropes-
    New people shouldn't join vets pugs.
    New people will probably want to learn something, and vets want to get it over with ASAP.
    New people won't find anything fun in joining vet who is 1 shotting entire room with max. emp. acid blasts and slas, with enough mana pool and shrines arround each corner to last this gameplay entire quest.

    Plus, I've seen lots of suggestions about giving rewards for pugging with strangers, rather than playing with frieds. This is even more wrong, as any system discouraging using friend lists, guilds and channels is just simply wrong.

    Also, it seems that most people that complain on lack of LFMs are the ones that put them up.
    Quote Originally Posted by Originally Posted by Random Person #2 View Post
    People who exploit bugs in code are cheaters cheaters cheaters. And they are big fat ****yheads too.

  18. #18
    Hero Propane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vellrad View Post
    Also, it seems that most people that complain on lack of LFMs are the ones that put them up.
    Very true

    Thanks for weighing in-
    Last edited by Propane; 11-03-2013 at 11:17 PM.

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  19. #19
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    Couple counterpoints....

    -The game is just about as grouping-friendly as you could make it. There's a global LFM/LFG system that's as detailed as you could ask for, and its pretty much automated. You can even open up fully automated LFMs with one click, when you start a quest. Even with Dungeon Scaling, any quest is way easier with the more (adequately prepared) people that join. You can blow through quests way faster on Elite with a full group, meaning you're already getting an implicit XP bonus.

    -If you got a bonus for a full group, that'd be the same as getting a penalty for non-full groups, because everyone would come to "expect" the bonus. And that'd just lead to griping when someone drops out of a group before completion, or incentivize people NOT to start playing until they've filled the last slot...and if the group never actually reaches full size, if its taking forever and someone else gets impatient and drops out and then someone else and you never actually make it to the quest, that's not encouraging grouping.




    I think the major obstacle to grouping is the staging time before you actually start playing. You cant really do anything while you're waiting for the group to get going...you cant start a solo quest, for instance, then "pause" it when the group is ready, and then return to finish it solo afterwards. Even when the group is full, you have to wait for everyone to ship buff and physically arrive at the quest entrance.

    My countersuggestion to improving grouping would be to allow the group leader to summon the party to the quest entrance, ie the zone where you can summon Hirelings. Also, you should be able every 15 mins or so to port from wherever you are to your Guild Airship. Obvious restrictions like you have to have the appropriate Explorer deeds completed, etc. (ie you couldn't port to Rainbow in the Dark unless you had the "Find the Den of Obscurity" explorer completed), and the group leader would still have to actually trek out to the quest. I don't see why those features should be tied to limited-use, Store-only items when it greatly enhances gameplay not only for you, but for others, if they were given to all players.

    That way, you could at least go knock out some Slayers or something while you wait for the group to fill, and then soon as its ready, everyone can buff up and then assemble inside the quest pretty much instantly.

  20. #20

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    I'd like to see a bonus of 5% per unique player class in the group. Multiclasses would be considered their primary class for purposes of this. Anyone with any late arrival penalty is ignored, and of course hires don't count.

    So a wizard, sorc, and cleric running together would get a consistent 15% bonus xp. If, say, a paladin wanted to join they'd get another 5% bonus xp, which would help offset the groans of piking. Another caster (wizard, sorc or cleric) would help speed things up but wouldn't give additional xp bonuses.

    Call it a "balanced party" bonus.


    Note that I largely solo, so this isn't a self-serving suggestion.

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