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  1. #1
    Hero Propane's Avatar
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    Default Promoting Grouping/LFMs by bonus XP for full group.

    Hay peps-

    I have been ponding ways to promote grouping/LFMs.

    I am sure someone must have thought of this before, but if not...

    How about a 20% boost for completion with a full group? (can negotiate boost number)-

    6 people in group - extra XP-

    Hires don't count.

    The XP bonus has to be big enough to offset a death of a member / PUGGER and a little extra to make up for what would generally be a slower completion.

    Thoughts?

    Calling Sarlona my home - Guildmaster - Brotherhood of Redemption - ddo.borguild.com
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  2. #2
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    ive always been against these kinds of ideas. bribing players to group together for bonus xp i don't think is the way to go. the better way to go is adjust DS higher than what it is to make the difficulties actually feel like the difficulties.

  3. #3
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    Default Dungeon scaling is the culprit, not exp.

    Quote Originally Posted by Propane View Post
    Hay peps-

    I have been ponding ways to promote grouping/LFMs.
    You don't need exp bonus or other ways to promote grouping. What you need, is the removal of the active deterrent to play in groups. And that is Dungeon Scaling.

    If inviting a new player to sit at the entrance doing nothing makes the quest considerably harder (or if not harder, at least longer with the inflated hps), something's seriously amiss. Additionally, a handful of quests bring a high level (up to red) of dungeon alert if the quest has full party in. Not to mention the mayhem of running the wrong way and triggering extra mobs.

    Currently a bad toon has negative impact on quest progress, even disregarding the possible -10% for deaths. No wonder good soloers don't party with anybody but other good soloers. Dungeon scaling needs to go away.

  4. #4
    Hatchery Hero BOgre's Avatar
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    As usual, you're confused about Scaling. Scaling is what happens when there are FEWER players in the group. The dungeon's difficulty is designed for a full group, and is SCALED DOWN to make it easier to shortman.

    So, what you're asking for is to universally lower quest difficulty, which is not going to happen.

    Bonus XP for full groups is a fine idea, but I can already see people running 6 multiboxes, or pugging out 5 spots right before completion... Kudos for the idea though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Towrn
    ...when the worst thing that happens when you make a mistake at your job is someone complains on the internet, you probably care a little less!

  5. #5
    Hero Propane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOgre View Post
    As usual, you're confused about Scaling. Scaling is what happens when there are FEWER players in the group. The dungeon's difficulty is designed for a full group, and is SCALED DOWN to make it easier to shortman.

    So, what you're asking for is to universally lower quest difficulty, which is not going to happen.

    Bonus XP for full groups is a fine idea, but I can already see people running 6 multiboxes, or pugging out 5 spots right before completion... Kudos for the idea though.
    What if any member was is getting a XP penalty for late entry - no bonus XP

    Calling Sarlona my home - Guildmaster - Brotherhood of Redemption - ddo.borguild.com
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  6. #6
    Hatchery Hero BOgre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Propane View Post
    What if any member was is getting a XP penalty for late entry - no bonus XP
    Yes, true indeed. But there will still be those that will get very fast completions solo, with mates standing by at the door ready to enter for the full party completion.

    Not saying it's not a good idea, there will always be people maxing out whatever system gets implemented.
    Quote Originally Posted by Towrn
    ...when the worst thing that happens when you make a mistake at your job is someone complains on the internet, you probably care a little less!

  7. #7
    Hero Propane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOgre View Post
    Yes, true indeed. But there will still be those that will get very fast completions solo, with mates standing by at the door ready to enter for the full party completion.

    Not saying it's not a good idea, there will always be people maxing out whatever system gets implemented.
    Thanks-

    Two things that make me think about NOT putting up an LFM to finish a group-
    1) don't know the skill of person - they die - loss 10% XP
    2) it will take extra time to fill and get started

    I believe there needs to be carrot to hang out in front of us to promoting grouping.
    The quests used to be harder (no scaling), no hires - an extra person wand whipping could make the difference between success and failure.

    Help me think of good carrot!

    Calling Sarlona my home - Guildmaster - Brotherhood of Redemption - ddo.borguild.com
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  8. #8
    Community Member Sidewaysgts86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOgre View Post
    As usual, you're confused about Scaling. Scaling is what happens when there are FEWER players in the group. The dungeon's difficulty is designed for a full group, and is SCALED DOWN to make it easier to shortman.
    Tomato potato Potato Tomato. Is the glass half full or half empty? Why does it matter what way the math "Actually" goes- The end result is the same. While its not always the case, we currently have a system that on a good handfull of quests cant make it remarkably easier to solo it vs bringing along a friend or two- So much so that its not always worth the effort to a lot of people, and they dont. It discourages a lot (Albeit not everyone) of people from grouping.

    And Fwiw, as far as I know (and I readily admit this may be wrong but its what I remember being under the impression of) the dungeons are typically "balanced" for groups of 4- and scale down from there with less players, but dont scale up past that (ie 5-6). This is why those quests with just a couple of people can really suck, but full groups can steam roll through (because the scaling, imo, less than ideal- Strongly favoring solo runs or near-full group runs). For a lot of "average geared" non-uber TR'ed 1337 power gamers, this can be a tricky, difficult, and very complex game (Which lets face it- Is why a lot of us sadomasochists enjoy it! This complexity adds such a brilliant amount of diversity) , and a lot of quests can be either "solo" or "almost full" to be readily runnable for them.

    I actually like the idea of moar exp for fuller groups. So /signed onto that. 2% base for every extra player would be nice I think. Large enough to encourage, but not big enough to rapidly force "all or nothing!" groups (Or so wed hope. I must admit I currently hate the trend of "naw dawg, dont wanna ruin my elite streak...." that we have going on)

    Bonus XP for full groups is a fine idea, but I can already see people running 6 multiboxes, or pugging out 5 spots right before completion... Kudos for the idea though
    My sarcasm batteries are depleted, but are these actual concerns?
    Last edited by Sidewaysgts86; 11-03-2013 at 03:53 AM.

  9. #9
    Hatchery Hero BOgre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sidewaysgts86 View Post
    Tomato potato Potato Tomato. Is the glass half full or half empty? Why does it matter what way the math "Actually" goes
    In this case it matters because the devs can't simply swing the Scaling slider to universally make full groups ( yes, in regards to scaling that means 4+ players) easier or harder. It would require much more work to adjust quest difficulty. In fact, the last time quest difficulties were "adjusted" we had some serious bugs creep into the game, some of which are still here today. Furthermore, we are all too familiar with what Turbine considers "adjusting" difficulty nowadays, and that's Mob HP. So, all that being said, I'm a big /not signed for adjusting quest difficulty.

    I could get onboard full party xp bonus though.

    My sarcasm batteries are depleted, but are these actual concerns?
    Concerns? Not really. Just observations... predictions...
    See, people will play the game the way they want regardless of what Turbine does. So adding little gimmicks like this to the game isn't really likely to encourage grouping (the same way that adding CoV to Saga Rewards wasn't likely to encourage running Sagas). The only way to encourage grouping, The only way to encourage running content, The only way to get more people playing the game, The only way to get more people PAYing is QUALITY content. And by QUALITY I do mean everything from fun, interesting, beautiful, hand-crafted quests, to a proper, working, interesting Loot system, to bug-free Updates, to stellar GM service.

    So yeah, I'd /sign an xp bonus for full parties, but I don't really thing gimmicky mechanic changes like this are the way to go. Build better quests is the way to go.
    Quote Originally Posted by Towrn
    ...when the worst thing that happens when you make a mistake at your job is someone complains on the internet, you probably care a little less!

  10. #10
    The Hatchery sirgog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOgre View Post
    As usual, you're confused about Scaling. Scaling is what happens when there are FEWER players in the group. The dungeon's difficulty is designed for a full group, and is SCALED DOWN to make it easier to shortman.

    So, what you're asking for is to universally lower quest difficulty, which is not going to happen.

    Bonus XP for full groups is a fine idea, but I can already see people running 6 multiboxes, or pugging out 5 spots right before completion... Kudos for the idea though.
    Not accurate, the mobs are encountered at base stats if you have 4 people of a mix of classes.

    This was most obvious when scaling was first broken (when it started applying to Elite quests which it was originally designed not to do). Mob stats went up significantly in 6 player and some optionals started one-shotting geared characters (particularly Sor'jek in elite Stealer of Souls with his Horrid Wilting, which never one-shotted people at the 16 cap; also the Tor blue dragon which was nerfed later because on heroic elite it was wiping level 25 groups that had stacked electric absorb gear)


    What they should do is tune Normal for two people, Hard for four, and Elite for six. Then just get rid of scaling - if you take five people into a Normal dungeon, it's like bringing a gun to a knifefight, you just win. Then that random PUGger becomes an asset, not a liability. (The 10% death issue is trivial, as it's 10% of base, not total XP, and usually amounts to only 3-4% of awarded XP for most quests, or ~15 seconds lost in a seven minute run).
    I don't have a zerging problem.

    I'm zerging. That's YOUR problem.

  11. #11
    2015 DDO Players Council Seikojin's Avatar
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    This may sound detrimental; but what about capping quest entry? So you can only enter a quest you are at level for, or 2 levels above? Meaning you at level 10 can do a level 8-10.

    I know the idea would be to increase the options players have, but the current reality is people run things with the least amount of effort both on the difficulty side and on the group composition side.

    I think the best thing is the system that isn't working yet: when you put up a lfg, it auto joins you to public groups for your level and or quest you select.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seikojin View Post
    This may sound detrimental; but what about capping quest entry? So you can only enter a quest you are at level for, or 2 levels above? Meaning you at level 10 can do a level 8-10.
    Please no.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seikojin View Post

    I think the best thing is the system that isn't working yet: when you put up a lfg, it auto joins you to public groups for your level and or quest you select.
    For a lot of people, this would have the opposite effect. Strong characters that like to run with other strong characters would just never put up a pug - they'd go straight to friends or guildies for groups. Most people would choose not to post group rather than run the risk of someone who doesn't know what they're doing taking away their no death xp bonus, I would think. At least right now there's a choice, and some people may post public groups who don't care.

  14. #14
    Hero Propane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirgog View Post

    What they should do is tune Normal for two people, Hard for four, and Elite for six. Then just get rid of scaling - if you take five people into a Normal dungeon, it's like bringing a gun to a knifefight, you just win. Then that random PUGger becomes an asset, not a liability. (The 10% death issue is trivial, as it's 10% of base, not total XP, and usually amounts to only 3-4% of awarded XP for most quests, or ~15 seconds lost in a seven minute run).
    Good point - I like this twist - it allows for people who really want a challenge to set the quest level, not the number of people in the quest set the quest level....

    I remember awhile back there was a double scaling in some quests (challenges?)

    --> more people would bring more mobs AND stronger mobs...

    2 or 6 man groups were fine, but the 4 man groups had their hands full...

    Has that been fixed?

    Calling Sarlona my home - Guildmaster - Brotherhood of Redemption - ddo.borguild.com
    Alts - Propane, Kerosene, Hexane, JA, Waulter, Acetylene, CNG, LPG, Woodpile, Hexyne, Dilithium Crystal, Geothermal, TidalPower, Windpower, Natural Gas, Antimematter, and Coaldust (and a few others)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Propane View Post
    Good point - I like this twist - it allows for people who really want a challenge to set the quest level, not the number of people in the quest set the quest level....

    I remember awhile back there was a double scaling in some quests (challenges?)

    --> more people would bring more mobs AND stronger mobs...

    2 or 6 man groups were fine, but the 4 man groups had their hands full...

    Has that been fixed?
    There are two parts to quest scaling "Group size" and "Difficulty setting"

    Group size
    Quests are supposed to be balanced for 4 players. Having less than 4 causes the dungeon to scale, while having 5 or 6 causes no additional scaling. That means a dungeon should be easier with a full group.(so there is already an advantage to having 5 or 6 players)

    Difficulty setting

    Effect how much of a diffrents there is in the scaling, so an elite quest with one person would be the same as say a normal quest with six.

    Also raids, epics, zone, and solo quests aren't effected by scaling.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOgre View Post
    As usual, you're confused about Scaling. Scaling is what happens when there are FEWER players in the group. The dungeon's difficulty is designed for a full group, and is SCALED DOWN to make it easier to shortman.

    So, what you're asking for is to universally lower quest difficulty, which is not going to happen.

    Bonus XP for full groups is a fine idea, but I can already see people running 6 multiboxes, or pugging out 5 spots right before completion... Kudos for the idea though.
    We are asking to make ELITE difficulty not scale at all with party size i.e. It is set as for full group, you can solo it but it will be harder.


    Hard and normal difficulties should be scaled so people who want to solo but not good enough for elite can solo them.

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