Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 25
  1. #1
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    36

    Default Pale Master + Divine Disciple?

    Im level 16 wizard PM and am wondering about splashing, particularly with cleric. so I got a couple of questions:

    - cleric divine disciple negative energy burst SLA - when cast will the damage be calculated from cleric lvl, wiz lvl or both?
    - how many cleric lvls is worth spending for the splash if any at all? I guess the 8% critical chance for negative energy from DD would be nice..
    - Im also wondering about splashing with monk, so what level combination would be the most efficient given the Wizard base?
    I was thinking about
    wiz 14 / clr 4 / mnk 2 (if neg energy burst caster level would be from both caster classes),
    wiz 16 / clr 2 / mnk 2 (if burst SLA does not count, DD levels only for crit chance enhancements), or
    wiz 18 / mnk 2 (if cleric splash is not worth it, only for some monk evasive stuff)

    any suggestions as to how should I splash my PM?

  2. #2
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    13,976

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by shirochan57 View Post
    - cleric divine disciple negative energy burst SLA - when cast will the damage be calculated from cleric lvl, wiz lvl or both?
    Your cleric lvls, unfortunately; and DCs will be based on WIS, not INT.

    It's funny you should mention this, as a friend and I were debating this recently. I'll let him present his side if he wishes, but here's why I think it's a bad idea:

    Cleric 4 / wiz 16 gives up lvl 9 spells, 1 metamagic, 4 Spell Pen (tho u can get back 3 for 6 APs in DD), 4 caster levels to wiz spells (altho many cap at CL:15 or below, so it really only affects higher-lvl spells), and up to +4 DCs (1 from +2 INT capstone, 2 from lich form, 1 from Heighten only going to 8 instead of 9 - you gain 1 back from T4 DD Spell DC, tho it's unclear to me if it applies to all Necro spells or just cleric ones). Also, presuming you front-load the cleric lvls to get NEB SLA ASAP, you're backloading your wiz spells significantly, which is going to make leveling up more challenging, not less, IMHO.


    So, you have a tougher time leveling up due to backloaded / reduced caster DPS; and you have a tougher time in epics due to lower DCs / Spell Pen and lack of some key spells. You're also implicitly putting at least 23 APs into DiDi to get NEB SLA and other goodies, which means fewer to spend in Archmage or your racial tree; in particular, I don't think there's enough APs to get T5 PM, T4 DiDi (NEB SLA), and T4 AM (Necro SLAs).

    In exchange, you gain greater Neg Spellpower (partly from DiDi, partly from Heal as class skill), +crit chance, and a lvl 4 NEB SLA which costs a third the SPs of the wiz spell and can be meta'ed for free. My friend guesstimates he can get the NEB SLA up to ~100HPs of unhealing a pop every 6 secs, which IMHO is too low to do much good in higher-lvl content, where even a caster with mediocre gear should have 400-600 HPs.

    So, I don't think the pros outweigh the cons. OTOH, a Morninglord cleric 1 / wiz 19 is probably a pretty solid leveling build: +4 INT, +3 Spell Pen, and +1 Enchant DCs from sun elf tree; Heal as class skill and T1 DiDi enhs gets you +32 Neg Spellpower & +2% crits; and all the usual goodies from PM/AM. Once U20 rolls out, you should be able to LR +1 into pure wiz or TR w/wiz PL. The main drawback is all the ML starter gear is geared towards a light-based cleric, not a PM, ofc; so gearing up will be a PITA unless you have a bunch of twink gear to pass along.

  3. #3
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    36

    Default

    Thanks for the input.
    if DiDi NEB SLA is based on wis and only cleric levels, there is no point going to cleric lvl 4.
    cleric 1 with +2-4% crit chance and some 15 neg spell power will be enough then, I guess.
    and if I add 2 lvls of monk, I can still have 9lvl spells (wiz 17 / mnk 2 / clr 1).

    Since I play mostly with my friends, 'casually', I dont think I will be needing super maxed out DCs and whatnot,
    so exchanging DC, spell penetration and capstone bonuses for monks evasion, and dodge bonus will not be bad, I think.
    wiz 18 / mnk 2 is a popular build, right?

    so I guess I should now decide whether to invest that 1 level into cleric or not :/
    if only NEB SLA used wiz bonuses...

    PS
    on an unrelated note, if Im a wizard, unlocking shiradi destiny will take some time, right?
    how many other destinies do I have to level up to get to shiradi?
    Last edited by shirochan57; 11-02-2013 at 01:12 PM.

  4. #4
    Community Member Saravis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    1,406

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by shirochan57 View Post
    PS
    on an unrelated note, if Im a wizard, unlocking shiradi destiny will take some time, right?
    how many other destinies do I have to level up to get to shiradi?
    Fatesinger: 4
    Shadowdancer: 3
    Legendary Dreadnaught: 4

  5. #5
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    36

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Saravis View Post
    Fatesinger: 4
    Shadowdancer: 3
    Legendary Dreadnaught: 4
    Thanks

  6. #6
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    3,020

    Default

    I think this idea better suits going at it the other way: 14 Cleric/6 Wiz (Vampire with full PM enhancements) or 17 Cleric/3 Wiz (Zombie with L9 Divine spells), playing like a standard casting DiDi, but with Shroud for Negative healing and additional crit enhancements.

    Plus, whats cooler than running around with an Imploding Zombie?

  7. #7

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by shirochan57 View Post
    wiz 18 / mnk 2 is a popular build, right?
    It is indeed.

    The other variant is 18/2 wizard/rogue, losing the 2 monk feats (which can't be used for casting feats) but gains trapping skills.

    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    I think this idea better suits going at it the other way: 14 Cleric/6 Wiz (Vampire with full PM enhancements) or 17 Cleric/3 Wiz (Zombie with L9 Divine spells), playing like a standard casting DiDi, but with Shroud for Negative healing and additional crit enhancements.

    Plus, whats cooler than running around with an Imploding Zombie?
    I like the idea of a self-harming undead. Harm! Natively cast! *drool*

    But every time I start down that rabbit hole I think to myself "Wait, I also have heal. Why do I want undead form, again? I'd rather have slay living/destruction."

  8. #8
    Community Member Skavenaps's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    669

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by shirochan57 View Post
    Im level 16 wizard PM and am wondering about splashing, particularly with cleric. so I got a couple of questions:

    - cleric divine disciple negative energy burst SLA - when cast will the damage be calculated from cleric lvl, wiz lvl or both?
    - how many cleric lvls is worth spending for the splash if any at all? I guess the 8% critical chance for negative energy from DD would be nice..
    - Im also wondering about splashing with monk, so what level combination would be the most efficient given the Wizard base?
    I was thinking about
    wiz 14 / clr 4 / mnk 2 (if neg energy burst caster level would be from both caster classes),
    wiz 16 / clr 2 / mnk 2 (if burst SLA does not count, DD levels only for crit chance enhancements), or
    wiz 18 / mnk 2 (if cleric splash is not worth it, only for some monk evasive stuff)

    any suggestions as to how should I splash my PM?
    in my sig, you will find a build i did based on the same idea.

  9. #9
    Hero nibel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Brazil
    Posts
    3,711

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    But every time I start down that rabbit hole I think to myself "Wait, I also have heal. Why do I want undead form, again? I'd rather have slay living/destruction."
    Zombie deal int damage on crits. Vampire deal one negative level on vorpal.

    If you go with improved shroud, zombies get 15 PRR and vampires also heal 1 HP per melee hit.
    Amossa d'Cannith, Sarlona, casually trying Completionist (12/14) [<o>]
    Almost-never-played-alts: Arquera - Chapolin - Fabber - Herweg - Mecanico - Tenma


    I want DDO to be a better game. Those are my personal suggestions on: Ammunition, Archmage, Combat Stances, Deities, Dispel Magic, Epic Destiny Map, Fast Healing, Favor, Favored Enemy, Half-elf Enhancements, Monk Kensai, Monk Stances, Past Life, Potency, Potions, Ranger Spells, Summons, Tiered Loot.

  10. #10
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    13,976

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    I like the idea of a self-harming undead. Harm! Natively cast! *drool*

    But every time I start down that rabbit hole I think to myself "Wait, I also have heal. Why do I want undead form, again? I'd rather have slay living/destruction."
    If anything, I think U19 discourages these sorts of arcane / divine mixes even more than before - and they were pretty heavily discouraged already!

  11. #11
    Community Member Caprice's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    601

    Default

    I tried the Cleric 4 splash idea for the NEB SLA on a Morninglord and decided that it was not a good idea. You have to sacrifice a lot from the Wizard Enhancement trees, so either you lose as much Negative spellpower in PM as you gain in Dark DiDi or you give up a lot of Universal spellpower from AM. I found my experimental "Mourninglord" took noticeably longer to kill things than a non-splashed Wizard; the PM SLAs and the Necrotic Bolt in Dark DiDi all remain fairly anemic (ha ha?) even with higher Negative spellpower, and the significantly reduced damage from non-Negative spells and the more frequent saves enemies had against all of my spells more than made up the difference (in a bad way).

    The NEB SLA itself isn't terrible. With lootgen Nullification & Void Lore gear I think I was averaging in the 80s per cast. For 7 SP every 6 seconds, that is decent compared to other heals that can be cast under Echoes, and does a bit of damage too even though it is minor compared to proper SLAs. However I am not sure that it would hold up well under the scaling in higher level content, and I definitely felt like I gave up too much to get it. Ironically it might be most viable in EE content as a cheap way of triggering AoE Shiradi procs, especially if you aren't sporting the multiple PLs and optimal gear required to make DC casting viable at that level of play.

    That's just Cleric 4 though. Cleric 2 does not sacrifice nearly as much and I would consider it. However I would suggest thinking seriously about whether or not what you get from splashing 3 levels as in the Wiz17/Cleric1/Monk2 idea is worth losing Lich form (which requires Wiz18).

  12. #12
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    36

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Caprice View Post
    I tried the Cleric 4 splash idea for the NEB SLA on a Morninglord and decided that it was not a good idea. You have to sacrifice a lot from the Wizard Enhancement trees, so either you lose as much Negative spellpower in PM as you gain in Dark DiDi or you give up a lot of Universal spellpower from AM. I found my experimental "Mourninglord" took noticeably longer to kill things than a non-splashed Wizard; the PM SLAs and the Necrotic Bolt in Dark DiDi all remain fairly anemic (ha ha?) even with higher Negative spellpower, and the significantly reduced damage from non-Negative spells and the more frequent saves enemies had against all of my spells more than made up the difference (in a bad way).

    The NEB SLA itself isn't terrible. With lootgen Nullification & Void Lore gear I think I was averaging in the 80s per cast. For 7 SP every 6 seconds, that is decent compared to other heals that can be cast under Echoes, and does a bit of damage too even though it is minor compared to proper SLAs. However I am not sure that it would hold up well under the scaling in higher level content, and I definitely felt like I gave up too much to get it. Ironically it might be most viable in EE content as a cheap way of triggering AoE Shiradi procs, especially if you aren't sporting the multiple PLs and optimal gear required to make DC casting viable at that level of play.

    That's just Cleric 4 though. Cleric 2 does not sacrifice nearly as much and I would consider it. However I would suggest thinking seriously about whether or not what you get from splashing 3 levels as in the Wiz17/Cleric1/Monk2 idea is worth losing Lich form (which requires Wiz18).
    Thank You all.
    Yeah, I already abandoned my initial idea to get NEB SLA. Once I realized that the dmg and saves are calculated from cleric lvls only, and that I have to sacrifice 4 lvls to get to NEB SLA...
    As You mentioned in Your post, my next trial was going to be Wiz 17 / Clr 1 / Mnk 2. But after walking around for some time with Wiz 15 / Clr 1, my overall opinion is meh.
    Yeah I did get the impression I scored critics a bit more often than without Clr, but then again, not THAT often. Lich form would be far more beneficial than that 1 lvl of DiDi.
    So I guess, my next stop will be Wiz 18 / Mnk 2

    As for shiradi, one of the previous posters was kind enough to tell me how many other ED wizards have to level up in order to get to shiradi, and I think it takes way too much
    time and effort to get there. I mean, is this ED really worth it??

  13. #13
    Community Member Caprice's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    601

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by shirochan57 View Post
    Thank You all.
    As for shiradi, one of the previous posters was kind enough to tell me how many other ED wizards have to level up in order to get to shiradi, and I think it takes way too much time and effort to get there. I mean, is this ED really worth it??
    It depends on what you want to do in the game. If you are having fun with friends and sticking with EH content, then I believe you will find that Magister or Draconic still holds up fine. Shiradi is a strong long term goal though, especially if you ever want to try EE content.

    I don't do EE content so my knowledge is based on what I read here on the forums, not personal experience, but with that caveat stated my understanding is that direct damage casting in EE is all but dead. Mobs have way too much HP and really impressive saves, and caster SP pools just do not last long enough to be viable when using traditional nukes. Many (most?) offensive casters end up as Shiradi since it allows them to use their SP pool in an efficient manner to do some DPS and cause random CC that actually works in EE content without a massive time investment in past lives and gear. What makes Shiradi Champion work in EEs is that includes quite a few effects that proc on offensive spells and have absolutely no save allowed. The keys seem to be Nerve Venom, which is a stun, and Prism Stance w/ Rainbow and Double Rainbow for multiple chances to proc damage. The efficiency comes from using low SP cost spammable spells with multiple hits, such as Magic Missile, since each small hit in the spell has an equal chance to cause the random effect. Note that this style of Shiradi play seems to be viable in EE content even as a first life build, since it is not dependent on gearing or stacking past life feats.

    You can also work on Enchantment and Necromancy DCs to get to the point where you can actually CC or instakill enemies semi-reliably in EE content. However it seems that this is not recommended for a first lifer since squeezing out those last few points on your DCs apparently makes a large difference in getting your spells to stick. So to do so you will need multiple past lives (at a bare minimum Bard and Wizard), an entirely DC-focused build, and impeccable gearing. If you have all of that, then you will be going Magister or Draconic even in EEs. However that is an even longer term prospect than getting to Shiradi.

    But again, that's all just EE. Stick to EH and you can stay with the less distant (and more Wizard-ly) destinies.

  14. #14
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    36

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Caprice View Post
    It depends on what you want to do in the game.
    ...
    That was very informative.
    Indeed, I play mostly casually. I do not have any ambition or aspiration to be the strongest wizard evaa, nor do I join other people for raids and gear farming.
    I play with my small circle of friends and we use DDO more like a social gathering rather than a hardcore race to the top.
    From what You are telling me, I don't see myself in EE either. Since I wont be needing past lives, best gear etc, my goal would be the easiest and most fun to play build.
    for that, ED of a magister, and maybe some singualar skills from adjacent EDs should do the trick.
    This is also the reason why I'm leaning towards wiz 18 /mnk 2. those two levels and some DC and Spell Pen loss probably will not be as noticeable, as getting no damage on a successful ref save, I presume.

    So, what do You think about Wiz 18 / Mnk 2 plus later on ED of a Magister?

    would You guys change anything in my feat choice?
    from human wiz:
    extend, empower, maximize, heighten, quicken, toughness, insightful reflexes, SF necro, GSF necro, mental toughness, improved mental toughness, dodge
    from monk:
    dodge, dodge

    PS
    are there any skills from Magister tree, that I should avoid at all cost?
    like I dont know, maybe glyphs are not that useful? or something like that
    Last edited by shirochan57; 11-06-2013 at 11:59 PM.

  15. #15

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by shirochan57 View Post
    So, what do You think about Wiz 18 / Mnk 2 plus later on ED of a Magister?
    Not sure how useful the two monk feats will be; I don't see anything worth taking besides toughness. I think I'd rather have full trapping skills than 44 extra hit points at level 20.

    would You guys change anything in my feat choice?
    from human wiz:
    extend, empower, maximize, heighten, quicken, toughness, insightful reflexes, SF necro, GSF necro, mental toughness, improved mental toughness, dodge
    from monk:
    dodge, dodge
    For me, I ignored dodge completely and took enchantment focus feats instead of mental toughness. Your choices look fine, though. And the emphasis on dodge explains the monk splash, I guess. My wizard's dodge and PRR are both 0, I think.

    are there any skills from Magister tree, that I should avoid at all cost?
    like I dont know, maybe glyphs are not that useful? or something like that
    I like the energy absorption sigil for shadow tanking in ToD, but other than that Magister is pretty straightforward:

    12 AP on +6 int
    3 AP on +3 necro
    2 AP on -10% mana cost

    That leaves 8 points to play around with. I ended up going with +3 spell pen, +6 reflex save, and rank 2 of the energy absorption sigil. I think the tier 3 spell augmentation might be good but haven't really played around with it much.

  16. #16
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    36

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Not sure how useful the two monk feats will be; I don't see anything worth taking besides toughness. I think I'd rather have full trapping skills than 44 extra hit points at level 20.
    For me, I ignored dodge completely and took enchantment focus feats instead of mental toughness. Your choices look fine, though. And the emphasis on dodge explains the monk splash, I guess. My wizard's dodge and PRR are both 0, I think.
    I like the energy absorption sigil for shadow tanking in ToD, but other than that Magister is pretty straightforward:
    12 AP on +6 int
    3 AP on +3 necro
    2 AP on -10% mana cost
    That leaves 8 points to play around with. I ended up going with +3 spell pen, +6 reflex save, and rank 2 of the energy absorption sigil. I think the tier 3 spell augmentation might be good but haven't really played around with it much.
    I guess this is an issue of a playstyle and/or level you play on. I am now lvl 16, so at the moment, my firewalls cloudkills death aura and PM SLAs are my quickest and best way to kill monsters.
    Also, even though my team includes a rogue and a blade barrier and cometfall-happy cleric and a paladin, my skeleton and I still get a lot of aggro and the monsters often run from my party members to me and my skeleton lol.
    So having a wraith form with 35% incorporeal boost + displacement really helps me out. and now, if I invest more in dodge that would make me pretty safe from harm. For now, of course.
    But I enjoy being a close combat spellcaster

    However, on Epic levels, I think that death aura and necrotic bolts/blasts may start becoming useless. In that case Your way of pure mage and maxing out DCs would be better perhaps...

    I am still hesitant about Enchantment DC boosting. I mean, I would have to take it for just two spells: hold monster and hold person.
    they have never been useful in my game through my past 16 lvls
    Last edited by shirochan57; 11-07-2013 at 09:14 PM.

  17. #17

    Default

    Oh yeah, definitely, at level 16 I'm running around to gather up a ton of mobs into one spot to throw ice storm and acid rain, along with dancing ball if it's really dangerous.

    The dancing ball isn't needed all that much. though. Instead of dodge I use a (crafted) +5 magecraft shield of axeblock with a dagger of spearblock in my offhand. The idea is to refresh death aura and displacement, run around gathering up a ton of mobs, throw ice storm + acid rain, then switch to the shield weaponset and shield block while the aoe dots kill everything. The mobs essentially can't hurt me thanks to the massive dr of shield blocking. (Provided you have a good turtling shield.)

    Quote Originally Posted by shirochan57 View Post
    I am still hesitant about Enchantment DC boosting. I mean, I would have to take it for just two spells: hold monster and hold person.
    they have never been useful in my game through my past 16 lvls
    Dancing ball is another big one. I also use dominate monster in a few specific situations, but in those situations I use it a ton. Most notably is Sunset Ritual to dominate the wolves. (Not werewolves.)

  18. #18
    Hero nibel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Brazil
    Posts
    3,711

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    2 AP on -10% mana cost
    If you have the war wizard set or the cormyrean green scale armor, the SP cost reduction does not stack. They are not optimal gear for level 28, but is worth the warning.

    Quote Originally Posted by shirochan57 View Post
    I am still hesitant about Enchantment DC boosting. I mean, I would have to take it for just two spells: hold monster and hold person.
    they have never been useful in my game through my past 16 lvls
    You forgot Disco Ball.

    On heroic and EN, suggestion/charms works great as a battle opener: Get as close as you can from the enemy group, charm one of them, see they all gang up on their former ally, and then nuke them with an AoE. This strategy don't work as well on EH/EE because epic ward dispel any kind of charm in 5-10 seconds or so (NOT a DC issue).
    Amossa d'Cannith, Sarlona, casually trying Completionist (12/14) [<o>]
    Almost-never-played-alts: Arquera - Chapolin - Fabber - Herweg - Mecanico - Tenma


    I want DDO to be a better game. Those are my personal suggestions on: Ammunition, Archmage, Combat Stances, Deities, Dispel Magic, Epic Destiny Map, Fast Healing, Favor, Favored Enemy, Half-elf Enhancements, Monk Kensai, Monk Stances, Past Life, Potency, Potions, Ranger Spells, Summons, Tiered Loot.

  19. #19
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    36

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Instead of dodge I use a (crafted) +5 magecraft shield of axeblock with a dagger of spearblock in my offhand.

    Dancing ball is another big one. I also use dominate monster in a few specific situations, but in those situations I use it a ton. Most notably is Sunset Ritual to dominate the wolves. (Not werewolves.)

    Yeah, I also use shields, but my idea is a bit different. I have wraith form with displacement like You, plus dodge 9% (3% from wraith and 6 from item), plus action boost AC +10, plus tenser and when I gather mobs
    I switch to my shield which has AC+9 and a high riposte. So, because of a fairly high AC for a spellcaster, and quite high miss chance, monsters who miss me get additional damage from riposte. I dont use spearblock or hammerblock too much, I use stoneskin instead

    As for the dancing ball. Yeah, I guess its a very good spell, as well as ottos irresistable dance. I just have bad luck with control spells. Every single time I take them and decide to use in battle,
    the monsters are IMMUNE to it...( this is really a drag. Thats why I rarely use spells with DC. I just never know when monsters will be immune to these spells, and often tend to waste spell points for it.
    Is this because of spell penetration? or because some monsters are designed not to be controlled?

    EDIT
    I know that undead are generally immune to control, right? so, for other monsters is this a Spell Pen thingie? because if it is, maybe I should swap out mental toughness for Spell Pen feats?
    Last edited by shirochan57; 11-07-2013 at 09:15 PM.

  20. #20
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    36

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    On heroic and EN, suggestion/charms works great as a battle opener: Get as close as you can from the enemy group, charm one of them, see they all gang up on their former ally, and then nuke them with an AoE. This strategy don't work as well on EH/EE because epic ward dispel any kind of charm in 5-10 seconds or so (NOT a DC issue).
    I will try doing that when I solo!
    but to be honest, whenever I play with my friends, everyone acts like Leeroy Jenkins and there is no time nor opportunity to use CC spells
    so most of the time I use nuking spells instead of CC
    Last edited by shirochan57; 11-07-2013 at 09:13 PM.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload