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  1. #1
    The Hatchery Urist's Avatar
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    Default Earning heroic hearts along the journey, not beyond the destination

    It seems to me that there is a stark inconsistency in how heroic and epic hearts are going to be earned in the current plan:
    * To earn an epic heart, you collect commendations as you play epic quests, on the journey toward the point where you can use the heart - the level cap.
    * To earn a heroic heart, you must first reach the level needed to use it (20), and then repeatedly run specific epic quests.

    I suspect people might scream bloody murder now, if epic hearts were changed such that they could only be earned after a character had already reached the level cap, and it has been mentioned that the devs are aiming for a character to have earned approximately enough commendations to ER by the time they hit cap (if playing Epic Hard and taking mostly comms as rewards). So why not extend this thinking to heroic reincarnation, too?

    So my suggestions:
    * Heroic characters can earn some kind of currency in heroic quests, just as they will do in epics - higher levels and higher difficulties offer larger rewards. I'd suggest "Commendation of Heroism" (because it's for heroic levels), but that's already been taken. (Personally, I'd just rename the existing ones to "Commendations of Epicness", but that's just me. )
    * This currency can be traded for a heroic heart, which can be used once a character reaches level 20

    Bonus suggestions:
    * This currency can be traded also for LR hearts, including LR+n ones. (IMO LR hearts are currently way overpriced for a game in which it is so easy for a player to unknowingly "gimp" their character)
    * The epic currency can be converted to the heroic one (at some rate of exchange), so epic characters can still earn and use a heroic heart while running epic content.
    * The heroic currency can be converted to the epic one (at some rate of exchange), so epic characters with no desire to heroic TR can convert their heroic currency to something useful to them.

    Most importantly:
    * No existing system is removed until the new replacement system is shown to be working at least as well...

  2. #2
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    Dude, nothing's changing in way of how heroic TRs hearts are going to be aquired.
    Just run some challenges, and you're done, as always.

  3. #3
    The Hatchery Urist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vellrad View Post
    Dude, nothing's changing in way of how heroic TRs hearts are going to be aquired.
    Yet.

    The devs have explicitly said that they want to eventually phase out Tokens of the Twelve, and I've not seen any statement that they've changed stance on this ultimate goal. AFAICT they're just not phasing them out until they have a solution for acquiring heroic hearts which is more acceptable to the community than their original idea.
    Hence this suggestion. Not for right now, but for the future.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vellrad View Post
    Dude, nothing's changing in way of how heroic TRs hearts are going to be aquired.
    Just run some challenges, and you're done, as always.
    ^^This.
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  5. #5
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    I don't see anything wrong with earning heroic commendations if it was implemented much the same way as the epic Comms will be. It could be a good way to get rid of tokens like the devs wanted to originally do and use them for bonus turn ins as well.

  6. #6
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urist View Post
    Yet.

    The devs have explicitly said that they want to eventually phase out Tokens of the Twelve, and I've not seen any statement that they've changed stance on this ultimate goal. AFAICT they're just not phasing them out until they have a solution for acquiring heroic hearts which is more acceptable to the community than their original idea.
    Hence this suggestion. Not for right now, but for the future.
    then they back pedaled on the idea and said the Tokens for Heroic Hearts are here to stay. (as always until the next time someone has a brilliant idea to change everything)

  7. #7
    The Hatchery Urist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanngiostr View Post
    then they back pedaled on the idea and said the Tokens for Heroic Hearts are here to stay. (as always until the next time someone has a brilliant idea to change everything)
    All they have said is that exchanging tokens for heroic hearts won't change in U20. They did not say how long they intend that situation to continue.
    Besides which, as you yourself suggest, the system most likely *will* get changed sooner or later. So in my mind, the sooner we start a discussion about potential alternative systems - especially while reincarnation is already so in focus - the less likely it is that the devs will come up with some hair-brained scheme of their own.

  8. #8
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urist View Post
    All they have said is that exchanging tokens for heroic hearts won't change in U20. They did not say how long they intend that situation to continue.
    Besides which, as you yourself suggest, the system most likely *will* get changed sooner or later. So in my mind, the sooner we start a discussion about potential alternative systems - especially while reincarnation is already so in focus - the less likely it is that the devs will come up with some hair-brained scheme of their own.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Thanks to your feedback, we’ve revised our initial plans on how Hearts of Wood can be earned through gameplay. We’re leaving Heroic True Hearts of Wood untouched, still available through Tokens of the Twelve. Iconic and Epic Hearts of Wood are still obtained through Commendations of Valor, but we’re moving Commendations out of Saga rewards and into the end reward lists for all Epic quests.

    U20 Changes to Tokens of the Twelve and Heroic True Hearts of Wood
    These are unchanged from U19. Tokens of the Twelve will continue to drop, continue to be BTA, and can be turned in for Heroic True Hearts of Wood.

    Epic & Iconic True Hearts of Wood, and Commendations of Valor
    This is our new plan for how to earn Epic and Iconic Hearts of Wood.
    • Sagas are not involved in any way. Commendations of Valor won’t be obtainable from Sagas.
    • Commendations of Valor show up in the end reward lists of quests.
    • Commendations show up if:
      • The quest was run on any Epic difficulty, except for Casual.
      • You did not have an XP ransack penalty when completing the quest.
    • More Commendations show up for higher level quests.
    • More Commendations show up for harder difficulties (Normal, Hard, Elite).
    • For an example, we currently expect a level 26 Epic Hard quest to include 30 Commendations of Valor in the end reward list. The same quest on Normal would reward 18 Commendations, and on Elite it would reward 44 Commendations.
    • Our current plan is that Iconic and Epic Hearts of Wood each require 4200 Commendations of Valor. This is close to our estimate of how many Commendations of Valor you would get from playing Epic Hard, non-ransacked quests and usually taking Commendations as the end reward, based on how many quests characters would finish between levels 20-28 (again, on Epic Hard).
    • Commendations of Valor are planned to be Bind-to-Character.
    • Hearts of Wood earned from Commendations of Valor are Bind-to-Account.
    • We are adding some additional rewards for Commendations of Valor, specifically for players who may not be interested in reincarnation.
    that's as it stands now with no plans to change it in the future for now.

  9. #9
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    we all know things can always change but, as of now there are no official plans to phase them out any longer.

  10. #10
    Community Member Ykt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanngiostr View Post
    that's as it stands now with no plans to change it in the future for now.
    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...-Wood-post-U20
    • Along those lines, for over a year DDO has not been adding to the Twelve tokens reward system, quite the opposite, and we will continue to deprecate this system over time. As this is being written, the design team is discussing a few approaches to how this will be done.

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Urist View Post
    Yet.

    The devs have explicitly said that they want to eventually phase out Tokens of the Twelve, and I've not seen any statement that they've changed stance on this ultimate goal. AFAICT they're just not phasing them out until they have a solution for acquiring heroic hearts which is more acceptable to the community than their original idea.
    Hence this suggestion. Not for right now, but for the future.
    They backed off the ideas in the post where they explicitly said it. It is clear that they are no longer planning to deprecate using tokens for hearts.

    The reason we know that the heroic hearts aren't changing in the future is because you cannot buy heroic hearts with comms of valor.

    Back when they were planning to deprecate tokens of the twelve, you could buy heroic hearts with valor and that was the direction they wanted to move toward. This direction changed completely and clearly when they removed heroic hearts from valor turn-in.

    That quote you highlighted was part of the system they scrapped.

  12. #12
    The Hatchery Urist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    They backed off the ideas in the post where they explicitly said it. It is clear that they are no longer planning to deprecate using tokens for hearts.
    It is not "clear", it is at best "arguable"; otherwise I wouldn't be disagreeing with you on this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    That quote you highlighted was part of the system they scrapped.
    The highlighted quote was from a list of things they were trying to solve, not a list of solutions they wanted to implement. What they scrapped was one particular solution toward the goal of removing tokens, which does not necessarily imply they have scrapped trying to solve the issue entirely.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanngiostr View Post
    that's as it stands now with no plans to change it in the future for now.
    You read a far more comforting statement than I did. All that post you quoted says is that they don't intend to touch tokens in update 20. I will be closely watching all future updates to see if they are indeed messing with tokens and heroic TR. Update 20 is safe, but nothing in what was stated says that update 21 is off limits.

    As for the original post, it is a great idea. I too would like to see it implemented and encourage you in your cause to get the idea out there. Why MMO players have to be so negative toward good ideas on MMO forums I will never understand.
    Everyone who is not in the true definition of "hardcore" is looked down on as a "casual", unwilling or incapable of understanding the true brilliance of having twelve-year-olds insult you while they are teabagging your virtual corpse. - Christian Ward columnist for The Escapist

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Urist View Post
    The highlighted quote was from a list of things they were trying to solve, not a list of solutions they wanted to implement. What they scrapped was one particular solution toward the goal of removing tokens, which does not necessarily imply they have scrapped trying to solve the issue entirely.
    I think you're reading it wrong, plain and simple.

    If they had any plans to deprecate tokens of the twelve for heroic hearts, you would be able to buy heroic hearts from any other in-game means. But you can't. It doesn't get more clear than that.

  15. #15
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erethizon View Post
    You read a far more comforting statement than I did. All that post you quoted says is that they don't intend to touch tokens in update 20. I will be closely watching all future updates to see if they are indeed messing with tokens and heroic TR. Update 20 is safe, but nothing in what was stated says that update 21 is off limits.

    As for the original post, it is a great idea. I too would like to see it implemented and encourage you in your cause to get the idea out there. Why MMO players have to be so negative toward good ideas on MMO forums I will never understand.
    We all have to watch all future updates for changes to systems we have now but, this goes without saying.

    My point is that at this time there is no change to Tokens and no future planned change.


    I would not mind a system that allowed us to gain Hearts while on the way to 20 but, remember not all changes are warm and fuzzy.

    I would MUCH rather farm some Tokens at level 20 than be required to alter my TR path into something that's less efficient XP wise just to gain a Herioc Heart of wood.

    I currently do some quests 1 and done Elite streak and others I farm a few times and move on.

    If the same mechanic that is going to work for CoV was implemented for Heroic Hearts it would favor 1 and done questing over farming. I would not appreciate that change.



    However if Tokens for Hearts was going to be removed for a system that is far worse I would stop whatever I was doing and farm out enough Tokens to buy all the Hearts I needed then just buy all my Hearts before the change went live.

    Similar to the way that I ignored farming my Epic Destinies until the announcement of the XP ransack change then I buckled down did a TR skipping every Epic quest in Heroic levels so that when I ran them in Epic levels I have full first time bonus and streak. Also only running any epic Quest only once or twice while leveling to 25. When I reached 25 I had no XP penalty in any Epic quests and the farming commenced.


    so if you want to advocate changing the Heroic Heart system go ahead but, lets not complain at all when something worse that the current system is implemented.

  16. #16
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    Default Tokens vs Commendations

    Convert every token in the game to 1 type. Problem solved. You can spend them at 20, or keep saving them and spend them at 28. There's no reason to have multiple farming sessions in different types of missions to accomplish the same thing. The game's supposed to be enjoyable, not an annoying grindfest. The new ED reincarnation system needs to be shot in the face, before it shows itself.

  17. #17
    Community Member Shinjiteru's Avatar
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    If they would introduce something like heroic comms of valor to grind for the heroic heart, then they probably would go with it similar to the epic tr hearts, so that you would have to take a com at nearly every quest completion so that you can heroic TR as soon as hitting 20. Having such a mechanic in epic levels is already going to hurt renown aquisition of guilds very much, a similar system in the heroic levels would kill renown aquisition of guilds so that they would need to farm renown. This might be a way to compensate for the lost renown decay but I assure you that most players are not going to like that.

    And the current ways of getting hearts for a heroic TR are very easy and fast, either challenges or soloing devil assault and inviting 5 others to help you pull tokens before you finish the quest.

    So... the main problem with something like that would be first life toons, especially if it's your first toon on the server or game. Then you usually find nice equipment in quest rewards and you often can't take 'heroic commendations of valor'. So they would have to reduce it to something that a first life and first server toon could manage to achieve that while leveling to 20. And unless you find a guild early on, you probably don't know that you want to have many of these commendations so you probably don't start taking them until you are level 10+. And even if you have a guild it couldn't help you getting your stuff for your first TR, where the current mechanic allows a guild to run devil assault with you and passes tokens.

    I understand that beeing able to earn heroic TR hearts while leveling to 20 would be nice for many players. But it has a big risk to screw the situation for new players, so better keep a system which isn't too bad for new players and not completely broken.

  18. #18
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nubom70 View Post
    The new ED reincarnation system needs to be shot in the face, before it shows itself.
    funny I think the Epic Reincarnation system started as an abomination with ED XP wipe and has been starting to turn into something that's looking better and better.

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