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  1. #1
    Community Member Ebondevil's Avatar
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    Default Simple Suggestions to Fix the Crafting

    Crafting is an interesting system in the game with a lot of untapped potential, but presently it's so horribly complicated and the rewards underpar compared to Random lootgen, it's barely worth the effort.

    It should in theory be possible to craft something that is better than randomly generated loot, even if it's only better because the Min level is slightly lower. If Random loot is better then crafting is a failed system from the start.

    It needs to be simplified and updated, so here are few easy steps to do it.

    1. Remove the Prefix/Suffix limitations
    It just limits the system without any real purpose, overcomplicates it and makes it harder to use, it has to go.

    2. Remove the Item Potential Shards/Limitations
    If I disjunct an Epic item why does it suddely lose all it's potential and become pretty useless, it's overcomplicated and it has to go.

    3. Remove the 2 shard limit
    This is probably a little more controversial, however there are a number of items with more than 2 enchantments on them, quarterstaffs come to mind as a simple example. Also the Min Level of the Items is already a built in limitation to the power of items, it doesn't need further limitations.

    4. Update the Shards that can be made
    This should be a no brainer, the loot system has been updated a number of times but crafting hasn't. (suggestions for some new shards below)


    5. Note on the shards what items they can go on.
    Is it that hard to list xyz shard can go on abc item, really? even if it's something general like, weapon, armour, clothing (boots, hats, gloves), jewellery (Rings, Goggles, Amulets, trinkets). Would make it a lot easier to pick the items you want.


    Optional Extras:
    1. Lets us craft the base items as well, would be nice if we could spend a few components to make an Amulet or the like, instead of running around to grab one from loot.

    2. Let us Craft Items of Different materials, Why shouldn't we be able to craft an Alchemical Silver Longsword, or a COld Iron Greatsword, it's got to be easier than enchanting them...

    3. Change the Bound Crafting to be Bound to Account, instead of Character, there's no reason for them to be BtC when you can make the item and pass the shards around as BtA.

    Shard Suggestions:
    Upgrade shards: These would work on any crafted item and upgrade the current enchantments on them without needing to rebuild the item from scratch, (System mechanics are already effectively in place with the Shards of Potential afterall)
    For Example:
    Enhancement Upgrades: +1 to +2, upgrade the +1 Enhancement on the Item to +2 Simple!

    Spell Lore Upgrades: Ice Lore I to Ice Lore II, again simple!

    Spellpower Upgrades: Glaciation +30 to Glaciation +38

    Lower Min Level Bound Shards: Similar to the Shards that can go in non standard slots which can be made by those with higher Crafting skill, create shards that add less to the Items Min Level, this would let the really good crafters make some exceptional items for themselves or their alts (having these Shards BtC might be reasonable).

    Last edited by Ebondevil; 11-01-2013 at 10:28 PM.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ebondevil View Post
    Crafting is an interesting system in the game with a lot of untapped potential, but presently it's so horribly complicated and the rewards underpar compared to Random lootgen, it's barely worth the effort.

    It should in theory be possible to craft something that is better than randomly generated loot, even if it's only better because the Min level is slightly lower. If Random loot is better then crafting is a failed system from the start.

    It needs to be simplified and updated, so here are few easy steps to do it.

    1. Remove the Prefix/Suffix limitations
    It just limits the system without any real purpose, overcomplicates it and makes it harder to use, it has to go.

    2. Remove the Item Potential Shards/Limitations
    If I disjunct an Epic item why does it suddely lose all it's potential and become pretty useless, it's overcomplicated and it has to go.

    3. Remove the 2 shard limit
    This is probably a little more controversial, however there are a number of items with more than 2 enchantments on them, quarterstaffs come to mind as a simple example. Also the Min Level of the Items is already a built in limitation to the power of items, it doesn't need further limitations.

    4. Update the Shards that can be made
    This should be a no brainer, the loot system has been updated a number of times but crafting hasn't. (suggestions for some new shards below)


    5. Note on the shards what items they can go on.
    Is it that hard to list xyz shard can go on abc item, really? even if it's something general like, weapon, armour, clothing (boots, hats, gloves), jewellery (Rings, Goggles, Amulets, trinkets). Would make it a lot easier to pick the items you want.


    Optional Extras:
    1. Lets us craft the base items as well, would be nice if we could spend a few components to make an Amulet or the like, instead of running around to grab one from loot.

    2. Let us Craft Items of Different materials, Why shouldn't we be able to craft an Alchemical Silver Longsword, or a COld Iron Greatsword, it's got to be easier than enchanting them...

    3. Change the Bound Crafting to be Bound to Account, instead of Character, there's no reason for them to be BtC when you can make the item and pass the shards around as BtA.

    Shard Suggestions:
    Upgrade shards: These would work on any crafted item and upgrade the current enchantments on them without needing to rebuild the item from scratch, (System mechanics are already effectively in place with the Shards of Potential afterall)
    For Example:
    Enhancement Upgrades: +1 to +2, upgrade the +1 Enhancement on the Item to +2 Simple!

    Spell Lore Upgrades: Ice Lore I to Ice Lore II, again simple!

    Spellpower Upgrades: Glaciation +30 to Glaciation +38

    Lower Min Level Bound Shards: Similar to the Shards that can go in non standard slots which can be made by those with higher Crafting skill, create shards that add less to the Items Min Level, this would let the really good crafters make some exceptional items for themselves or their alts (having these Shards BtC might be reasonable).

    I'm on board. This is something I've been thinking about for a while, but have never had the patience or mental energy to list all the changes that should be made. Some of the ML's could use a second look as well.

  3. #3
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    While I agree that crafting definitely needs to be brought up to date with the current itemization system, there are a few counterarguments to be made to your suggestions:

    -Lootgen should have a higher POTENTIAL than crafting, or else there's no point in ever looting anything. Crafting gives you a completely controlled output, while looting is always going to have the disadvantage of randomness.

    1) The prefix/suffix system is there to force tradeoffs; you cant have two +6 stats on one item, for instance. If you get rid of this, you have to evaluate if its OK to get rid of all the tradeoff choices they imposed.

    2) While the item potential system has become largely arbitrary (the cost for making even +11 or +12 items is negligible, which was its point), getting rid of Shards of Potential would make grinding crafting a lot tougher.

    3) This would create grossly overpowered weapons, as potentials are balanced for the "one suffix, one prefix" system. You could have a weapon with 1d6 damage from 5 elements and 1d8 Bleed, and it'd be min level 11, since all those affixes only cost 1 Potential. In terms of pure DPS, that's comparable to a L20 T3 Cannith Water Khopesh. Just imagine that on a Repeater, or a Bow with Manyshot.

    Plus, ML still caps out at L20. So you could load things up, in theory, with as many affixes as you want until you ran out of Potential.

    5) It'd be nice, but there's already third party planners you can use to achieve this - would rather they focus effort elsewhere.

    -I like the idea of looting Flametouched Iron or Cold Iron blanks, especially with sockets...again, it gives you some kind of "jackpot" loot to shoot for. If things can be mass-produced, they can never be as good, so it'd likely come with a nerf somehow if you could just make them from scratch.

  4. #4
    Community Member Ebondevil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    While I agree that crafting definitely needs to be brought up to date with the current itemization system, there are a few counterarguments to be made to your suggestions:

    -Lootgen should have a higher POTENTIAL than crafting, or else there's no point in ever looting anything. Crafting gives you a completely controlled output, while looting is always going to have the disadvantage of randomness.

    1) The prefix/suffix system is there to force tradeoffs; you cant have two +6 stats on one item, for instance. If you get rid of this, you have to evaluate if its OK to get rid of all the tradeoff choices they imposed.

    2) While the item potential system has become largely arbitrary (the cost for making even +11 or +12 items is negligible, which was its point), getting rid of Shards of Potential would make grinding crafting a lot tougher.

    3) This would create grossly overpowered weapons, as potentials are balanced for the "one suffix, one prefix" system. You could have a weapon with 1d6 damage from 5 elements and 1d8 Bleed, and it'd be min level 11, since all those affixes only cost 1 Potential. In terms of pure DPS, that's comparable to a L20 T3 Cannith Water Khopesh. Just imagine that on a Repeater, or a Bow with Manyshot.

    Plus, ML still caps out at L20. So you could load things up, in theory, with as many affixes as you want until you ran out of Potential.

    5) It'd be nice, but there's already third party planners you can use to achieve this - would rather they focus effort elsewhere.

    -I like the idea of looting Flametouched Iron or Cold Iron blanks, , in theory anything above Item potential 10 especially with sockets...again, it gives you some kind of "jackpot" loot to shoot for. If things can be mass-produced, they can never be as good, so it'd likely come with a nerf somehow if you could just make them from scratch.
    Random Lootgen is trash, good for new characters or to break down for components, it should not be better than something someone's had to put effort in to make, sure you might find some nice loot gen, but you should still be able to make better.

    1) Actually you can have 2 +6 stats on an item, one Named item I can think of off the top of my Head at Min Level 11 has +6 Int, +6 Cha and Magi, also if an item has a colourless slot you can throw another stat onto it pretty easily, that being said 2 +6 stats on a crafted item should likely bring the Items Min level up to around 18-20 anyhow.

    2) Well in theory anything above Item potential 10 should be an epic item and have a Min level of 20., and I can agree, that there's some reason for it with Epic items, that I can sort of agree with, but anything below is a hindrance.

    3) Working from that as a baseline, every 1 Item potential should be effectively +2 Min Level., starting at a base of Min Level -2, this leaves +10 Enhancement bonus at Min Level 18, and +11 at Min Level 20, it also means that +1 is Min Level 0

    So the aforementioned 5 Elements and 1d8 Bleed with a +1 enhancement 'should' be around Min Level 12

    If it had 5 elements and +5 it should be Min Level 18.

    I guess I don't see this as a problem coming from a PnP perspective.

    Also there's no reason why the Crafting Min Level should cap out at 20, just have it cap out at the level cap and prevent more effects being added after that, so currently the cap should be ML 28.

    5) While I agree the Third party planners are useful and I do use them a lot, they don't make the system more transparent or easier for newer players to get to grips with.

    Recently I was planning on making a Magi Item, and I had a Wizardry 3 Necklace so I thought "Hey it's got wizardry on it, I'll disjunction it and upgrade to Magi, perfect" Did it work? No!

    Personally I think they should devote a little time and effort each update to updating old stuff, like crafting, even if it's a case of one person spends one day going through the shards and updating them with which items they can go on, honestly probably easier to write a small program to pull it out if the shards themselves and add to the description, since the shards are coded to work on specific items anyway.

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