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  1. #61
    Community Member NXPlasmid's Avatar
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    It's going to be the death of this game. TRing is basically boring and there is a direct correlation between effort and reward, do the xp, get the benefit. Grinding raids for unique gear is psychologically different. It random, like gambling. We all keep hitting the feed button because you don't know which time you hit it will drop the food... T
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  2. #62
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    MoTU killed off my alts. Farming up off EDs for twists is no fun at all, neither is TRing without an XP tome(not buying ones for alts I TR once every 6 months) and with that power creep a lot of PLs got weakened to almost useless anyway.

    Going to keep my alts though and just do EH stuff to farm up CoV turn-ins for my main, having alts to feed your main things like mabar augs, GH augs and the like seems like the way to go.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by NXPlasmid View Post
    It's going to be the death of this game. TRing is basically boring and there is a direct correlation between effort and reward, do the xp, get the benefit. Grinding raids for unique gear is psychologically different. It random, like gambling. We all keep hitting the feed button because you don't know which time you hit it will drop the food... T
    I feel the opposite. I look at raiding like gambling and unless the odds of "winning" are very high I simply don't bother. I will generally run a quest or raid no more than a few times to try to get an item and if I don't get it then that item no longer exists to me (or more simply I assume I will never get it and thus do not plan any builds around my ever having one). Farming a quest 5 times for an item and not getting that item is simply flushing your time down the toilet. When I play, I expect to progress. If I get guaranteed progress (like experience or the new comms of valor) then I can motivate myself to play. If I get random progress (in the form of maybe getting an item drop) then I might try for a short while but will rapidly give up. Gambling is only fun if you win. If you lose it is a waste of time. And since the odds don't improve the more you lose, if I lost the last 5 times, then I am probably going to lose the next 5 times and the 5 times after that (unless the odds of the item dropping is at least a double digit). If I wanted to play a game for no reward I wouldn't play an MMO. MMO's have boring gameplay in exchange for the satisfaction of character improvement. Character improvement is only satisfying if it actually happens. When something has a small chance of happening then that means each individual time you try is very likely to be a waste of time. Having failed a 1% chance drop the last 99 times does not improve your odds of getting it on the 100th try. You are still almost certainly (99% certain) going to fail to get it on your hundredth try too. Wasting time is not my idea of fun. Give me guaranteed character progression any day of the week.
    Everyone who is not in the true definition of "hardcore" is looked down on as a "casual", unwilling or incapable of understanding the true brilliance of having twelve-year-olds insult you while they are teabagging your virtual corpse. - Christian Ward columnist for The Escapist

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by erethizon View Post
    I feel the opposite. I look at raiding like gambling and unless the odds of "winning" are very high I simply don't bother. I will generally run a quest or raid no more than a few times to try to get an item and if I don't get it then that item no longer exists to me (or more simply I assume I will never get it and thus do not plan any builds around my ever having one). Farming a quest 5 times for an item and not getting that item is simply flushing your time down the toilet. When I play, I expect to progress. If I get guaranteed progress (like experience or the new comms of valor) then I can motivate myself to play. If I get random progress (in the form of maybe getting an item drop) then I might try for a short while but will rapidly give up. Gambling is only fun if you win. If you lose it is a waste of time. And since the odds don't improve the more you lose, if I lost the last 5 times, then I am probably going to lose the next 5 times and the 5 times after that (unless the odds of the item dropping is at least a double digit). If I wanted to play a game for no reward I wouldn't play an MMO. MMO's have boring gameplay in exchange for the satisfaction of character improvement. Character improvement is only satisfying if it actually happens. When something has a small chance of happening then that means each individual time you try is very likely to be a waste of time. Having failed a 1% chance drop the last 99 times does not improve your odds of getting it on the 100th try. You are still almost certainly (99% certain) going to fail to get it on your hundredth try too. Wasting time is not my idea of fun. Give me guaranteed character progression any day of the week.
    I agree completely. I hate random chance for progress.

  5. #65
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erethizon View Post
    I feel the opposite. I look at raiding like gambling and unless the odds of "winning" are very high I simply don't bother. I will generally run a quest or raid no more than a few times to try to get an item and if I don't get it then that item no longer exists to me (or more simply I assume I will never get it and thus do not plan any builds around my ever having one). Farming a quest 5 times for an item and not getting that item is simply flushing your time down the toilet. When I play, I expect to progress. If I get guaranteed progress (like experience or the new comms of valor) then I can motivate myself to play. If I get random progress (in the form of maybe getting an item drop) then I might try for a short while but will rapidly give up. Gambling is only fun if you win. If you lose it is a waste of time. And since the odds don't improve the more you lose, if I lost the last 5 times, then I am probably going to lose the next 5 times and the 5 times after that (unless the odds of the item dropping is at least a double digit). If I wanted to play a game for no reward I wouldn't play an MMO. MMO's have boring gameplay in exchange for the satisfaction of character improvement. Character improvement is only satisfying if it actually happens. When something has a small chance of happening then that means each individual time you try is very likely to be a waste of time. Having failed a 1% chance drop the last 99 times does not improve your odds of getting it on the 100th try. You are still almost certainly (99% certain) going to fail to get it on your hundredth try too. Wasting time is not my idea of fun. Give me guaranteed character progression any day of the week.
    in other words, you don't like time sinks. you give quests/raids 5 chances and if you don't get what you want you settle for random ghostbane loot. not sure why you play DDO than if the only real character progression you will see is leveling a character since the devs cant spit content out fast enough. one of the good things about DDO that separates itself from other MMOs is that you don't need the loot to progress in the game, but if you want any real character power than you do need the loot.
    #MakeDDOGreatAgain

    You are the one choosing not to play alts.

    Casual player now investing way less than I used to into the game, playing 1-3 months at a time and still want nothing to do with Reaper. #improvepuggrouping#alldifficultiesmatter

  6. #66
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    I don't know maybe you enjoy this

    Quote Originally Posted by NXPlasmid View Post
    "hitting the feed button because you don't know which time you hit it will drop the food"... T
    For me I enjoy leveling my Character.

    If my XP bar is full then I am bored.

    As the game is now I don't bother Flagging for much more than Von, Giant hold, and Shroud and that is only because, the flagging quests are good XP.

    I TR the instant I hit 20, get my tokens and, empty my TR cashe.

    Farming for gear is an after thought many lives ago I farmed some gear from raids including a cleansing gem from Shroud.

    I did get to do a bit of raiding when I capped to 25 and farmed my destinies back in U17.


    With Epic TR your character will stay flagged for raids and keep favor if you enter into a series of Epic TR in a row you can keep your raid completion counters.

    For me I see this as a reason to start raiding again while doing ETR.


    I'm not sure what anyone is doing at cap nowadays with barely any new loot no new raids I don't see the point.


    For me I hit the button because I know it will drop XP any "food" that I happen to get along the way is just bonus.

    Back when Dragon Touched armor was all the rage I specifically did my leveling in Prey, Monastery, and ETK.

    2 birds 1 stone.

    But anything that grants no XP I'm not really interested.

    Back in the days before MOTU when raids like Shroud, HOX, and VOD granted XP even when their were capped toon in them I always ran in weekly guild runs whenever I was within level range.

    Raising the level cap and killing XP in a lot of raids with over level players killed these raids for me.

    I KNOW....one can form a party of at level players to run these raids for XP but, when its faster to just do some XP in a quest that doesn't need to wait to fill I won't be running them.
    Last edited by Tanngiostr; 11-01-2013 at 06:22 PM.

  7. #67
    Community Member Chaios's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    ...10-30 PLs of ETR on the other hand with the insane 9x stacking is looking like a lot.
    I'm glad someone besides me thinks being able to stack 9 epic destiny past life feats is insane.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    in other words, you don't like time sinks. you give quests/raids 5 chances and if you don't get what you want you settle for random ghostbane loot. not sure why you play DDO than if the only real character progression you will see is leveling a character since the devs cant spit content out fast enough. one of the good things about DDO that separates itself from other MMOs is that you don't need the loot to progress in the game, but if you want any real character power than you do need the loot.
    What I want from a game is endless, real character progression (item progression is not real character progression because all items are eventually replaced and thus all the time you spent getting those items was wasted). DDO keeps my interest with past lives. There are 39 heroic past lives, 12 iconic past lives, and 36 epic past lives. Every time you get one of those past lives your character is permanently improved. That improvement will never go away no matter what changes are made to the game and no matter what loot is released in the future. I don't need new content to be spit out, I simply need the ability to permanently make my character better than he was before. Loot fails me by being temporary. People spent a lot of time getting level 20 epic loot back when the cap was 20. Now virtually every one of those level 20 items is garbage. All that time was wasted. People that spent the same time TRing have characters that are permanently better than the people that truly wasted their time getting epic loot.

    The true way that DDO separates itself from other MMO's is that you can play through the game 40 times getting stronger each time. Most games have nothing permanent at level the cap (Everquest's AA system is an exception) and so I do leave games once I cap (I sometimes linger a while to try the raids, but they are always boring and pointless since they give no permanent character advancement). In DDO, every time you TR you get to play through the game again stronger than before. The advancement cap requires 39 heroic past lives, 12 iconic past lives, and 36 epic past lives to achieve (plus copies of whatever the highest level tome is for each stat and skill at the time). Until all of that is complete there is still more personal growth a character can have. Whether the character experiences this growth with a raid item or a random ghostbane item makes little difference. The only thing I lose out on by having worse loot is that the game is more challenge (which is actually a bonus rather than a penalty). I see a lot of people complain that content is too easy. I find that wearing poor gear makes it much more challenging (and thus more fun).
    Everyone who is not in the true definition of "hardcore" is looked down on as a "casual", unwilling or incapable of understanding the true brilliance of having twelve-year-olds insult you while they are teabagging your virtual corpse. - Christian Ward columnist for The Escapist

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaios View Post
    I'm glad someone besides me thinks being able to stack 9 epic destiny past life feats is insane.
    The problem with past life feats is if they are not strong enough then people will avoid doing them (and then leave the game because they have nothing to do). Stacking is an interesting fix. The past life feats are still individually weak enough that they don't make much of a difference (so people that have past lives will still play with people that don't), but they stack enough times that, if you do them all, the bonus becomes meaningful.
    Everyone who is not in the true definition of "hardcore" is looked down on as a "casual", unwilling or incapable of understanding the true brilliance of having twelve-year-olds insult you while they are teabagging your virtual corpse. - Christian Ward columnist for The Escapist

  10. #70
    Community Member RTFM's Avatar
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    I for one, will not be stacking up 10-30 past Epic lives. And here is why:

    1. You have to run in off ED. This is horrible design, and utter garbage for the player. Not. Fun. Period.

    2. Yes 9x stacking blah blah looks great. But for what? To run what content? What goes up? FOT Elite? CITW Elite? Frankly I'm fine running well geared and max'd out ED toons that are on 2nd lives and can run any EE in the game.

    3. Cost. If it takes $ to Epic TR I am not going to pay because I will NOT pay to play in an ED that is non core. It is not fun. I don't like it. I don't pay for things I don't like and I don't need.

    4. Grind. If we have to grind "Sagas" anything past say 3-4 of them, forget it that is way too much time to even be able to Epic TR.

    I play 5 toons now. one completionist, one 5th lifer, two 2nd lifers, one first lifer bladeforged. Even the first lifer bladeforged can do any EE in the game right now. Yes, 1st lifer. I have not even bothered to TR the other 2nd lifers for their big whopping "extra 2 stat points" for 36 point build. With +5 tomes on all stats, tell me how those extra two points are really going to help me? Tell me how 10 HP for a barb past life matters when pretty much any toon buffed can get to 1000 HP (i.e.: 1% gain). IT is all rounding errors. Sure they will stack up, but for today's content NONE of it is needed. The only reason you need to TR today is if you LIKE TR'ing. I personally don't really like it anymore, so I don't do it. And Epic TR is going to be the same (based on what they have announced).

    At the end of the day, I don't know what they are thinking. And if it is financially successful for them, well kudos and great job. If it turns out that it just turns away paying customer both temporarily, permanently while making the solid core fans play (and spend) much less, well that will be a financial nosedive. I am no prophet, so no predictions here. I just see and know what my spending habits will be, based upon what I understand U20 to be. I'll be running some raids now and again and waiting to check out U21.



    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    There have always been advantages to racking up some PLs for any toon . . . but what I'm seeing with ETRs . . . it's looking like to really see the pay off you need to rack up 10-30 lives.
    Last edited by RTFM; 11-01-2013 at 08:21 PM.
    RTFM, DOOF, and MACHINATION on Khyber. Guild: Toy Soldiers.

  11. #71
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Memnir View Post
    I openly admit to having Alt-ADD. I can't focus on one alt for too long or I get really bored. I also don't like TRing much. For me, a great part of why I still enjoy the game is trying new builds and seeing what works and what doesn't - even when those ideas run counter to the current conventional wisdom. Hell, especially when it runs counter to the current conventional wisdom.


    So... I for one have time for more then one alt, and likely always will.
    Me too.

    But I am feeling sad that the TR thing is getting so good that I am feeling left way behind.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  12. #72
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    When the Cap was 20, I had made several raid ready toons, and had them sit at cap, and would dust them off when a spot on a raid needed filling that my "main" could not do.

    When I first TR'ed, I realized that this was "the game" and for me, playing that meant 1 toon, as I was not nor will I ever be able to run several toons though a dozen past lives of so, so I settled for a single "main" and several "Raid alts"

    When the cap hit 25, My main Kept TRig, and my Raid Alts, Slowly Leveled from raid EXP. This pretty much shot them all down, and still today, my highest toon is 22nd.

    So really my game has not changed, for me, it was "one main" years ago...

  13. #73

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    Aren't you looking over the wrong timeframe? Give yourself 4 years and see how you go.

    In any event, Turbine has failed by its preoccupation with TR. They should be making good content that takes a long time to play and makes you aspire to play (e.g. Shroud crafting in the day) rather than gimmie it all now because I have 5 alts to feed stuff.
    Last edited by Fafnir; 11-01-2013 at 09:17 PM.

  14. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanngiostr View Post
    I don't know maybe you enjoy this



    For me I enjoy leveling my Character.

    If my XP bar is full then I am bored.

    As the game is now I don't bother Flagging for much more than Von, Giant hold, and Shroud and that is only because, the flagging quests are good XP.

    I TR the instant I hit 20, get my tokens and, empty my TR cashe.

    Farming for gear is an after thought many lives ago I farmed some gear from raids including a cleansing gem from Shroud.

    I did get to do a bit of raiding when I capped to 25 and farmed my destinies back in U17.


    With Epic TR your character will stay flagged for raids and keep favor if you enter into a series of Epic TR in a row you can keep your raid completion counters.

    For me I see this as a reason to start raiding again while doing ETR.


    I'm not sure what anyone is doing at cap nowadays with barely any new loot no new raids I don't see the point.


    For me I hit the button because I know it will drop XP any "food" that I happen to get along the way is just bonus.

    Back when Dragon Touched armor was all the rage I specifically did my leveling in Prey, Monastery, and ETK.

    2 birds 1 stone.

    But anything that grants no XP I'm not really interested.

    Back in the days before MOTU when raids like Shroud, HOX, and VOD granted XP even when their were capped toon in them I always ran in weekly guild runs whenever I was within level range.

    Raising the level cap and killing XP in a lot of raids with over level players killed these raids for me.

    I KNOW....one can form a party of at level players to run these raids for XP but, when its faster to just do some XP in a quest that doesn't need to wait to fill I won't be running them.
    I agree with this guy.

    I would however like to see a system return with the level 30 cap where you have a benefit from running all retuned level 30 raids. That is, like the desire to get epic raid tokens back in the 20 days.

  15. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by NXPlasmid View Post
    It's going to be the death of this game. TRing is basically boring and there is a direct correlation between effort and reward, do the xp, get the benefit. Grinding raids for unique gear is psychologically different. It random, like gambling. We all keep hitting the feed button because you don't know which time you hit it will drop the food... T
    Agree

  16. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    There have always been advantages to racking up some PLs for any toon . . . but what I'm seeing with ETRs . . . it's looking like to really see the pay off you need to rack up 10-30 lives.

    The difference between a 36-pointer and a triple-heroic completionist isn't that much . . . 10-30 PLs of ETR on the other hand with the insane 9x stacking is looking like a lot.

    So the question is who the hell has time to do this for more than one character?

    I've got 6 toons leveled and EDs out pretty decently. 4 have good PLs and all are well geared (my gimp has an ESoS, I gave it to him just to make good toons cry). There is no way in hell I can continue to "feed" all 6 with EPLs . . . probably have to abandon 5 and just work on one.

    Am I the only to observe this?

    Is this by design?
    Depends if Turbine get their stuff together once they hit 30 and can revive a robust end game that provides something for everyone. As I see it a completionist is off the table but iconic reincarnation seems nice since it gives you both heroic and iconic feat. But the real meat is in 9x doing what gives you HP. The PRR is nice, but it's in a painful sphere where I just don't feel like gearing to play divine for that long.

    The other stuff is just gravy. Triple do arcane for 9% crit, triple martial for 9% doublestrike and primal for 9% doubleshoot. But it's like you say - either go completely nuts on one or do some here and there on a few. The Xp target for going nuts seems insane in itself, but again - that depends on the end game.

  17. #77
    Community Member Nightmanis's Avatar
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    I'm the total opposite. Before U18, I only played 1 toon, my main fighter. After U18, I decided to work on my rogue. Since then, I just kind of alternate between the 2. Some EE gear, some EH gear, some EN gear if the EE/EH gear really isn't much better (I'm not going to work for a useless item just to wave my e-peen around. I'm looking at you High Road boots) and my fighter has a single fully maxed out CITW sword. My rogue doesn't only because she's part monk and those Antipode wraps really aren't that great. She's the same way, some EE stuff, lots of EH stuff, a few EN stuff, etc. Both still need to work on getting their black dragon armour to tier 3 (Honestly, I don't really care. She kills stuff so fast it's mind numbing at times, even in EE) and both could use some effort to get everything to EE.

    I only have 2 past lives on each one, and I might go for the ETR for some of the extra doublestrike only because it's helpful for both builds (S&B Offensive builds are still viable, though not the best) and yeah some PRR will help my rogue a pretty penny. Does this mean they are 100% necessary for my build? Not really. My fighter with the EE First blood (when I get around to TRing him) will have a burst doublestrike of 97%. Adding 9% gives me more doublestrike than I can actually use. The extra PRR is useful, so sure there's 4 lives I can see going through. That's it. More hp? Why not. But needing 27? Oh hell no.

  18. #78
    2015 DDO Players Council Sebastrd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fafnir View Post
    Aren't you looking over the wrong timeframe? Give yourself 4 years and see how you go.

    In any event, Turbine has failed by its preoccupation with TR. They should be making good content that takes a long time to play and makes you aspire to play (e.g. Shroud crafting in the day) rather than gimmie it all now because I have 5 alts to feed stuff.
    TRing is the only reason I still play this game. Different strokes and all...

    Astreya the Unturning

    It's always a shame when the hammer of poor design choices smashes the fun of player tactical adaptation.

  19. #79
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erethizon View Post
    The problem with past life feats is if they are not strong enough then people will avoid doing them (and then leave the game because they have nothing to do). Stacking is an interesting fix. The past life feats are still individually weak enough that they don't make much of a difference (so people that have past lives will still play with people that don't), but they stack enough times that, if you do them all, the bonus becomes meaningful.
    As long as the game doesn't become balanced for toons with 50 heroic + epic TR lives. The one thing I enjoyed about TR in the past is even when Im on a first life toon and someone else is on a completionist Im like 90-95% as powerful. This insane level of stacking couples with heroic TR benefits + the insane hamster wheel run to get it all is going to do exactly what the OP said, and people will consolidate down to 1 or maybe 2 toons to run through it all.

  20. #80
    Community Member darksol23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    There have always been advantages to racking up some PLs for any toon . . . but what I'm seeing with ETRs . . . it's looking like to really see the pay off you need to rack up 10-30 lives.

    The difference between a 36-pointer and a triple-heroic completionist isn't that much . . . 10-30 PLs of ETR on the other hand with the insane 9x stacking is looking like a lot.

    So the question is who the hell has time to do this for more than one character?

    I've got 6 toons leveled and EDs out pretty decently. 4 have good PLs and all are well geared (my gimp has an ESoS, I gave it to him just to make good toons cry). There is no way in hell I can continue to "feed" all 6 with EPLs . . . probably have to abandon 5 and just work on one.

    Am I the only to observe this?

    Is this by design?
    Agreed.

    Pre-MOtU - I had 8 characters maxed at 20 and flagged to run all raids and 10 other alts < level 20.

    MOtU - I dropped down to 4 characters who got leveled to 25 and flagged for CitW. I also started chain TRing one of these four to completionist and then some.

    Shadowfail - I'm down to 2 that I bothered to cap.

    U20 - I'll be down to just Epic TRing the completionist and all others will just be plat mules.
    Officer of the Platinum Knights of Cannith, Founder of the guild GHOSTBANE of Cannith
    Main - Death - Completionist and then some...
    Other Characters - Holy, Leap, War, Optimusprime, Intimitank, Lanfear, Can, Afkbiobrb, Garagesale, Leverpuller and many more

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