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  1. #21

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    Bringing +n tomes in store before the drop on a regular basis (at least 1 tome every 25 hours gameplay) ingame is p2w. p2w is not actually supporting the game, it is ruining the game. You will see. Soon you play this game alone with your store-leveled and store-geared characters. But do not worry I do not blame the players. Players are allowed to have their own opinion and share it in forums. I just blame the providers. I blame them for making a game where you have to pay for content, classes, races, and additionally pay for experience, character stats, and gear. Most games just do the one or the other. Character progression is just a joke when it can be bought. Rude p2w since 2012 (Motu and Experience stones), where is the resistance? Viva la revolution.
    Last edited by morkahn82; 11-01-2013 at 11:49 AM.

  2. #22
    The Hatchery zwiebelring's Avatar
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    This is what many people do anyways. Playing DDO solo except for raids. I like my store-boosted toons.
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Don't get trapped into the "its only +1 more mod" mentality. The major character power being sold here is qualifying for feats.
    I agree with Chi on the whole inconvenience/pay to circumvent inconvenience, grind/pay to circumvent grind issue.
    He has WB/Turbines number, and anyone who has considered his track record knows it.
    For the sake of the game though I wish he was wrong more often than he is.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirgog View Post
    The bad thing about pretending to be an idiot to troll is that there are people who actually agree with intentionally stupid posts.

    You would have had better luck trolling by announcing that there were +6 tomes in store, and linking a rickroll (or worse, Rebecca Black or Mass Text) as a 'click here to see the store announcement'.
    hahahahahaha
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Nope.

    Don't get trapped into the "its only +1 more mod" mentality. The major character power being sold here is qualifying for feats. Take the 12 monk 6 ranger 2 other class monkcher build for instance. Its tough to qualify for all the feats you want to max out damage potential without high end tomes, and then still get to 40 wis to get the 4th arrow shot in 10k stars. Stats needed: 23 str, 21 dex, start + levels + tomes only, then still a decent con and wis needs to be 40+ after all mods, for optimal damage.

    Many of the good builds that got posted right after the enhancement pass use +5 tomes to qualify for all desired feats, and coupling those feats is a lot more character power than the +1 mod you get for adding 2 more points.
    Nope, you've probably got some people fooled with this but it's red herring, either you didn't think it all the way through, or you're being deliberately disingenuous.

    The +1 to a stat you're "saving" at build or level up, on a complex build is still only getting you a +1 to a stat on the OTHER ability. +1 to a stat is +1 to stat. If it allows you to put all 5 heroic level ups into Wisdom instead of only 4 into Wis and 1 into Dex, it's still +1 wis you've gained. Now obviously you can upgrade your +4 wis tome as well with a store bought +5 wis tome, and we've added +2 to that ability effectively, in this narrow example...

    So a whole +1 modifier (in this case +1 DC and a little closer to 40 wisdom) .... Raw power? Still nope. Still wrong, Still being incredibly "black and white" when you love to talk about how everyone ELSE can't see the shades of grey
    You guys filibustering a new mode have already succeeded in scaring the Dev's into not doing it the right way and re-scaling the existing settings, why in the world are you still filibustering? Drunk on your success? Schadenfreude? Spitefulness?

  6. #26
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Nope, you've probably got some people fooled with this but it's red herring, either you didn't think it all the way through, or you're being deliberately disingenuous.

    The +1 to a stat you're "saving" at build or level up, on a complex build is still only getting you a +1 to a stat on the OTHER ability. +1 to a stat is +1 to stat. If it allows you to put all 5 heroic level ups into Wisdom instead of only 4 into Wis and 1 into Dex, it's still +1 wis you've gained. Now obviously you can upgrade your +4 wis tome as well with a store bought +5 wis tome, and we've added +2 to that ability effectively, in this narrow example...

    So a whole +1 modifier (in this case +1 DC and a little closer to 40 wisdom) .... Raw power? Still nope. Still wrong, Still being incredibly "black and white" when you love to talk about how everyone ELSE can't see the shades of grey
    Nope, its still raw character power. Im the one who is usually reminding everyone else about the argument of degree when they are trying to hammer me with absolutes, like how its only +1 better, which is what people did when they started selling +2 in the store, and every plus after that it was "just another plus 1". You do realize we are up to +4 "just another plus ones" right? Builds that were not possible before are now entirely possible and they are the current crop of optimal builds.

    Try to make that build without +5s accross the board. I already hammered it out in another thread, and it does far less damage due to less str, and wis not getting to 40. Youd have to gimp another needed stat past the point where it doesnt qualify for the feat, so if youre dropping dex, thats 1[W] youre dropping. Wis below 40 is less arrows per shot. Str below 23 is 1 less crit multiplier. With +5 tomes, no sacrifice is needed.

    What part of min maxing isnt being understood here? It is literally selling raw character power. Youve only touched on one stat, where are you getting the points to pay for the other 2 to meet the requirement?
    Last edited by Chai; 11-01-2013 at 05:45 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  7. #27
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    oh goodie. i love the "its only +1 more to ___" arguments now that +5 tomes are in the store and soon to see +6's. as Chai said, back when +2s went into the store that argument was used then. people are going to still use that argument with +6s too?

  8. #28
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    At the base, it is just a +1, no matter how you slice it, it only adds +1 above the existing. So, in every sense of the word, that is all you are getting a +1 to the stat.

    Regardless of how much or little you want to play up the importance of that +1, it does not change the absolute fact that is only a +1 to the stat.

    Now, you might say, "But that +1 allowed me to do something that was of importance" like for example, take a feat, or even out a stat to get a +1 to a skill check, or it may have had an overall zero impact on your build because you ended on an odd number, and the was no feat you needed for it.

    Case in point, I got a Mabar +5 int Tome for my Wizard, because, well they were a wizard, and I ended up with a 45 int thanks to it, from a 43 (I had only a +3 before), so I did a full +1 DC and such for that tome, and +2 to my stat points, but in the end of things, that was all I got for it.

    While someone else may have used the tome to unlock supreme cleave, or something, and thus got a significant power boost, but even then, that does not change that the tome in and of itself, only gave them whatever more then they already had, and most players had at least +3, if not +4's, so, it's still just 1 or 2 stat points, even if it unlocked that special feat.

    At the other side, yes, players are now looking at what they can unlock, and that opens doors to what power they can tap into, but the Tome itself does not open those door, the players and how they design builds do.

    No build is made or broken by 1 stat point. But everyone always will want +1 more if it's available to them.

  9. #29
    Community Member relenttless's Avatar
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    Default +6 tomes too OP!

    Quote Originally Posted by Darthsarlacc View Post
    Please sell +6 tomes in the store so I can even out my stats.

    Thanks
    I think +6 tomes are way OP.

    So please re-engineer the entire game so that stat increases occur on an odd number rather than even, therefore +5's would be sufficient to even out my stats.

    thank you
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  10. #30
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    At the other side, yes, players are now looking at what they can unlock, and that opens doors to what power they can tap into, but the Tome itself does not open those door, the players and how they design builds do.
    The optimal builds cannot be built without tomes. They are selling raw character power in the store. Its right next to the raw XP and raw past lives, in aisle 7 row 2.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    At the base, it is just a +1, no matter how you slice it, it only adds +1 above the existing. So, in every sense of the word, that is all you are getting a +1 to the stat.

    Regardless of how much or little you want to play up the importance of that +1, it does not change the absolute fact that is only a +1 to the stat.

    Now, you might say, "But that +1 allowed me to do something that was of importance" like for example, take a feat, or even out a stat to get a +1 to a skill check, or it may have had an overall zero impact on your build because you ended on an odd number, and the was no feat you needed for it.

    Case in point, I got a Mabar +5 int Tome for my Wizard, because, well they were a wizard, and I ended up with a 45 int thanks to it, from a 43 (I had only a +3 before), so I did a full +1 DC and such for that tome, and +2 to my stat points, but in the end of things, that was all I got for it.

    While someone else may have used the tome to unlock supreme cleave, or something, and thus got a significant power boost, but even then, that does not change that the tome in and of itself, only gave them whatever more then they already had, and most players had at least +3, if not +4's, so, it's still just 1 or 2 stat points, even if it unlocked that special feat.

    At the other side, yes, players are now looking at what they can unlock, and that opens doors to what power they can tap into, but the Tome itself does not open those door, the players and how they design builds do.

    No build is made or broken by 1 stat point. But everyone always will want +1 more if it's available to them.
    Economically speaking, it's a huge difference: the cost of stat points at creation are 1:1 until 14, when the cost begins to increase rapidly. If you don't mind being underpowered early on, 14/14/14/14/12/8 would get you the most bang for your buck with a fresh 28-point human. +5s across the board would guarantee you 19/19/19/19/17/13 at level 19, unadorned and not counting your levelling stat points.

    Assuming raising 18 to 19 would cost 4 points if you could do that, a supreme +5 tome would be worth 65 build points. Those stats should cover feat requirements for any relevant stat by 20, and the only permanent "loss" would be early skill points; that's not even considering racial stats or past lives.

    Not to say that your +1 DC is gamebreaking, but just to keep things in perspective.

  12. #32
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Its right next to the raw XP and raw past lives, in aisle 7 row 2.
    I don't see Past lives for sale, either raw, or cooked.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrancisP.Fancypants View Post
    Economically speaking, it's a huge difference: the cost of stat points at creation are 1:1 until 14, when the cost begins to increase rapidly. If you don't mind being underpowered early on, 14/14/14/14/12/8 would get you the most bang for your buck with a fresh 28-point human. +5s across the board would guarantee you 19/19/19/19/17/13 at level 19, unadorned and not counting your levelling stat points.

    Assuming raising 18 to 19 would cost 4 points if you could do that, a supreme +5 tome would be worth 65 build points. Those stats should cover feat requirements for any relevant stat by 20, and the only permanent "loss" would be early skill points; that's not even considering racial stats or past lives.

    Not to say that your +1 DC is gamebreaking, but just to keep things in perspective.
    To be fair, +1 to a stat is also provided by a level up, enhancement's, and ED's.

    I made the same argument as you a while back in regards to +4 tomes, but you know what, +4 tomes have been in the game for years. Not months, they have been around for years, so at the best, for the min maxer, they are still only getting +1 to a stat. If that breaks a build, that build was glass to start with.

    The real point here is that you can get them in the game (at least you could, not sure if there was some goof there as of late), so they may be selling those build points, but they are also giving them away for free.

  14. #34
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    I don't see Past lives for sale, either raw, or cooked.
    They are, its simply a matter of semantics. Raw XP on sale, plus some math for bonuses. People will be "leveling" (buying) 0 favor lives now. Completionist for the rich. Already been experimented with, and proven.

    But don't worry, its only another +1 right? Same thing was said when +2s went on sale, then 3s, then 4s and now 5s. Those "only a +1s" have added up to the current crop of optimal builds that weren't possible previously without that stack of "only a +1".

    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    The real point here is that you can get them in the game (at least you could, not sure if there was some goof there as of late), so they may be selling those build points, but they are also giving them away for free.
    A mere technicality people are happy to justify any level of p2w with. Give us a .000001% chance of acquiring them in game, and they can sell scads of them in the store, no questions asked. How many folks does anyone here know who farmed a complete set of +5 tomes in game? How long did that take?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    I made the same argument as you a while back in regards to +4 tomes, but you know what, +4 tomes have been in the game for years. Not months, they have been around for years, so at the best, for the min maxer, they are still only getting +1 to a stat. If that breaks a build, that build was glass to start with.
    Selling character power is selling character power. I said all of the same things each time they ramped it up to another +1 in number. Fact that it has been in the game for years doesn't make it any less of a degree in character power sales. In one of the first "slippery slope" threads people were being completely exaggeratory when trying to deny what I was saying, and I distinctly remember a couple of them saying "this isn't a big deal, come back when they are selling +5 tomes and past lives in the store." Trains pulling up to that station folks, have your tickets ready.
    Last edited by Chai; 11-02-2013 at 06:28 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darthsarlacc View Post
    On a side note, why are tome prices still high on the AH if most people have them already?
    Should not +2 tomes sell for next to nothing? Next to nothing for a new player not next to nothing for a player with maximum plat on every char on multiple accounts.
    Because most characters don't have them already. The forums of any game tends to be disproportionately filled with the upper 5% of the player base. Back when it was first announced that 5000 favor would give a +5 tome there were actually people saying that it was useless because everyone had all their +5 tomes already. I, like most other players, got my first (and only) +5 tome ever from the Mabar event, but when people only run with their elite guild they tend not to even notice how the average player plays. Some people seriously need to spend more time in pick-up groups just to see how the majority of players live. It would be very enlightening for them.
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  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by erethizon View Post
    Because most characters don't have them already. The forums of any game tends to be disproportionately filled with the upper 5% of the player base. Back when it was first announced that 5000 favor would give a +5 tome there were actually people saying that it was useless because everyone had all their +5 tomes already. I, like most other players, got my first (and only) +5 tome ever from the Mabar event, but when people only run with their elite guild they tend not to even notice how the average player plays. Some people seriously need to spend more time in pick-up groups just to see how the majority of players live. It would be very enlightening for them.
    not necessarily true. +5 tomes were in the store once, maybe twice now so those willing to spend the money bought their sets. the top small per cent probably had some of the +5 tomes that they wanted already. some of the hardcore players i knew farmed for those tomes like crazy, especially during +2 loot bonus days and never got their full set.

    i remember that thread about 5000 favor. in that thread i posted that for now the favor will be good for the general player base, but eventually when +5 tomes become more common that favor will become more and more worthless like the 1750 favor is for a lot of us. each time it goes on sale in the store and the more chances in game that players eventually pull some the bigger that per cent gets. most players i knew in the game farmed for their 1 +5 tome during Lagbar. i suggested to also include other rewards that a variety of players would like so in 2 years we wouldn't see threads about how to improve the 5000 favor guy.

  17. #37
    Community Member Trillea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    What i got from that was the intention of their post was to point that you are spending time on these forums as opposed to say, the EVE online forums.
    The DDO forum game beats the heck outta any other game's forums.
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  18. #38
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    A mere technicality people are happy to justify any level of p2w with. Give us a .000001% chance of acquiring them in game, and they can sell scads of them in the store, no questions asked. How many folks does anyone here know who farmed a complete set of +5 tomes in game? How long did that take?
    I have a friend that got a few pure +5's, (I can't remember if he was missing dex or int), and that's not including the +4 to +5 upgrades, which are a lot more common. Personally, I am not a farmer, and I think in my entire time playing this game, I have a grand total of 3, 20's list, but iirc, in the high ed raids, the 20's completions had a chance for +5 tomes.

    Selling character power is selling character power.
    By this logic, you could make the claim that selling a +1 long sword in the store is the same as selling raid gear. It's not that simple, which is why these kinds of absolutes never work.

    In one of the first "slippery slope" threads people were being completely exaggeratory when trying to deny what I was saying, and I distinctly remember a couple of them saying "this isn't a big deal, come back when they are selling +5 tomes and past lives in the store." Trains pulling up to that station folks, have your tickets ready.
    They are, its simply a matter of semantics. Raw XP on sale, plus some math for bonuses. People will be "leveling" (buying) 0 favor lives now. Completionist for the rich. Already been experimented with, and proven.
    I'll be very honest, if someone buys a Super Mario's Otto box, with a 500% Exp pot and a hundred gold rolls, to zip past a life or three, It does not bother me, because it neither steals money from my pocket nor does it cause me physical pain, in fact, I would shake their hand and thank them for supporting the game, and hope that the money they spent on those frivolous things would support the overhead work like bug fixing.

    If it is a +1 or a +100, if I can enjoy the game without it, then it matters not if someone else has it and I don't.

    If Turbine sells this stuff and players want to gobble it up, wonderful, this only helps me, If they have +6's and I have +2's and we are both ripping up the content, it's impossible for me to have an issue with it.

    +5 tomes, +20 tomes, bah, you make it sound like it means something, like, it matters how someone else plays their game, if you are not to their level, then don't worry about them, if you are running neck and neck with them, then you get to pat yourself on the back that you did not buy the tomes and they spend money to let you play the game for free. Everyone wins.
    Last edited by Ungood; 11-02-2013 at 10:13 PM.

  19. #39
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    I have a friend that got a few pure +5's, (I can't remember if he was missing dex or int), and that's not including the +4 to +5 upgrades, which are a lot more common. Personally, I am not a farmer, and I think in my entire time playing this game, I have a grand total of 3, 20's list, but iirc, in the high ed raids, the 20's completions had a chance for +5 tomes.



    By this logic, you could make the claim that selling a +1 long sword in the store is the same as selling raid gear. It's not that simple, which is why these kinds of absolutes never work.





    I'll be very honest, if someone buys a Super Mario's Otto box, with a 500% Exp pot and a hundred gold rolls, to zip past a life or three, It does not bother me, because it neither steals money from my pocket nor does it cause me physical pain, in fact, I would shake their hand and thank them for supporting the game, and hope that the money they spent on those frivolous things would support the overhead work like bug fixing.

    If it is a +1 or a +100, if I can enjoy the game without it, then it matters not if someone else has it and I don't.

    If Turbine sells this stuff and players want to gobble it up, wonderful, this only helps me, If they have +6's and I have +2's and we are both ripping up the content, it's impossible for me to have an issue with it.

    +5 tomes, +20 tomes, bah, you make it sound like it means something, like, it matters how someone else plays their game, if you are not to their level, then don't worry about them, if you are running neck and neck with them, then you get to pat yourself on the back that you did not buy the tomes and they spend money to let you play the game for free. Everyone wins.

    Its about the cold hard fact that they are selling character power, and people trying to deny it, then justify it when they cannot deny it. Im wondering why this is. If they don't mind it so much, they should own it, not care about what everyone else thinks, rather than deny its happening or try to make it into some personal discussion about how the person somehow cares how others play, which has never been the case. If my viewpoints on this issue echoed those who disagree with my stance on p2w id be here 3 times a week linking the tomes, xp pots and timer bypass I bought, and own it 100% lock stock and two smoking barrels. But those who disagree with me don't do that, because they too understand the issue Im referring to isn't getting any smaller, and its influence on future decisions on where the direction of the game is headed is too profound to outright support, so they attempt to deny its existence, or its degree of impact instead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    By this logic, you could make the claim that selling a +1 long sword in the store is the same as selling raid gear. It's not that simple, which is why these kinds of absolutes never work..
    Nope. That logic doesn't work because Im not the one arguing the absolute here. Im the one talking about the degree, and how it has raised to the point where it can no longer be dismissed or denied. People continue to say "its only a +1 higher" and THEY are arguing the absolute. They would argue this regardless if we were going from +1 to +2, or +5 to +6 they think it still only +1 higher. This is false, and anyone who understands the stance of degree knows this. When we look at the big picture, a +5 tome is worth a much higher amount of build points with regards to qualifying for feats, which was clearly pointed out by another poster in this thread. Whats being sold now is the literal possibility to build things that could not be built without those tomes. Raw character power. Its right next to the past lives in the win department.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  20. #40
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Its about the cold hard fact that they are selling character power, and people trying to deny it, then justify it when they cannot deny it. Im wondering why this is. If they don't mind it so much, they should own it, not care about what everyone else thinks
    That is because you're whole stand is a red herring.

    It's Obviously it is not about players getting access to the power itself, because for all intents and purposes Turbine gave away +5 tomes in the Mabar event, and no one has a hissy fit they are giving away Raw Character Power,

    So the problem is not the +5 tomes, there is no issue with players having these tomes, because they are in the game, so we can totally dismiss the fact there is any problems or issues with more Raw Character Power™ existing in the game.

    This, any fussing about the +1 or whatever the + is, is nothing but a red herring.

    As I see it, the real problem you have is with Turbine trying to make some money off their game. Why anyone would have a problem with such a fundamental need by a company to turn a profit form their product, I will never understand, in fact it boggles the mind that such a rip would exist, I mean, do you go into Wal*Mart and fuss they are trying to make money by selling stuff?

    Side note:

    All things said and done, this game takes money to run, so to everyone that is willing to open your wallets and support this game by buying Otto's boxes, tomes, cosmetic, all that stuff, and all those things, I want to say: Thank you for keeping the game going, because without you, we all would not have a game to enjoy.

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