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  1. #41
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    teamwork in DDO = you hjealing meh!
    Get ur own hjealz u dumb barb or G.T.F.O.!!1!
    Quote Originally Posted by Originally Posted by Random Person #2 View Post
    People who exploit bugs in code are cheaters cheaters cheaters. And they are big fat ****yheads too.

  2. #42
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vellrad View Post
    Get ur own hjealz u dumb barb or G.T.F.O.!!1!
    I have my own hjeals, it's called you.

    Now hjeal meh!

  3. #43
    Community Member Ryiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pHo3nix View Post
    In good groups you don't need to discuss strategy in advance cause usually good players know what's the best thing they can do with that toon, in that quest and can adapt to changes quickly without needing instructions; discussing strategy might be useful in a group of medium-bad players with medium-bad toons, cause they can't adapt to changes quickly and they usually cannot fullfill many roles at once, so you give them their simple job and they "might" be able to get it done
    Exactly! When I have an Artificer or Rogue in my party it is generally assumed that they will be handling traps. If there is a Divine, it is assumed they will provide some healing in addition to melee or offensive casting unless the party specifically states "BYOH". If there is an Arcane, it is assumed they will provide some buffs in addition to melee or offensive casting. If there is a S&B melee, it is assumed they will be attempting to tank.

    Having to state the roles of the various party members is not an indicator of teamwork but rather an indicator of either bad or inexperienced players. For an experienced party it should not be necessary to state their roles outside of a raid.

    Quote Originally Posted by axel15810 View Post
    - Items like the Torc allow you to refill SP easily so no need for a bard or cleric to do this
    Try running Epic Elite and refilling your SP with a Torc. You'll die very quickly.
    Ryiah | Raeyah | Reikara
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  4. #44
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    I have my own hjeals, it's called you.

    Now hjeal meh!
    GTF0 n00b!!1!
    Quote Originally Posted by Originally Posted by Random Person #2 View Post
    People who exploit bugs in code are cheaters cheaters cheaters. And they are big fat ****yheads too.

  5. #45
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    teamwork in DDO = you hjealing meh!
    Sadly, this is true.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  6. #46
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RavenAmazing View Post
    To achieve synergy, one would require a team to begin with. The lack of LFM's is a start. Ever since the Bravery Bonus showed up, if you don't post your LFM as elite, you are gonna solo it. Most, if not all F2P players have to start their quests on normal, and no one will join. Evident by the solo LFMs, active for xx minutes.

    Mean people. Good Lord, give it a rest. It is a game. So what, you died, res and start over. The rages are not necessary. I won't join any LFM with restrictions; byoh, solo a tower, self sufficient...etc. That is the give away, in my opinion. Of course, right after these LFMs are ran, the group leader comes here to the forum complaining about some toon who couldn't figure out a trap or whatnot, "I even posted in the LFM", blah blah blah rage.

    One of the most fun quest I have ever done, back in the day, was Acid Wit, elite at level, with some guildies and a few puggers. I think we had somewhere around 80 deaths total and we were all naked. We eventually beat that quest after who knows how long. It was satisfying, fun and one of my all time better memories of DDO. The flip side to that was a guild scheduled "Gimp" toon run. We were doing Von 5/6 Elite. Remember...we were all gimps. Needless to say, the guild leader, and several officers completely raged when we all wiped at Velah. I left that guild.

    Zerging is another killer. Who wants to join a quest that is half finished by the time you enter? Personally, I want to see the quest, not try to catch up. Even worse when the party leader is a high evasion toon, zergs forward leaving all traps intact. They may be able to get past the trap, but the 1st life Fighter you just let in the party is gonna die. Now he has an excuse to rage and something to post about :P. Don't get me wrong, there are great groups in this game, however, you will get into 6 bad ones before you find 1 good one, it would seem.

    Sorry for the text wall, but I find this topic contrary to what I witness in game. I rarely PUG anymore because of this and I refuse to put up an LFM simply because I may not know every little nuance of a quest. I believe in synergy, I strive to make "support" toons for this reason. I don't care about kill counts, I care about ransack, optionals and clearing the map, but that is just me, and I don't believe I am alone here.

    In summation: I don't believe there is any synergy in DDo because players stopped "Playing" long ago and began "Working" instead. If you can TR in a week or less, this is for you. Don't loose sight of the fact that it is still a game.

    Thank you for letting me state my opinion.
    Quote Originally Posted by AzB View Post
    You are not alone. I see so much criticism here on the forums about Turbine and how "things will never change". Yet very few people are willing to consider changing the one thing we all have control over... ourselves.

    Playing/working, you hit the nail on the head. And work is serious bidness, so you better not slow me down or cause me to have to redo something it took all of 11 minutes to accomplish!

    I can TR in 10 days. I choose not to. Keep looking, there is a subculture of folks still playing this game who really are interested in playing and not "grinding" and trying to keep up on treadmill headed for a moving target. For some of us, the journey is the destination. Why hurry to an endgame and then complain that there's no endgame? Enjoy the moment.

    You two and I need to hook up.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryiah View Post

    Try running Epic Elite and refilling your SP with a Torc. You'll die very quickly.
    Agreed, but Epic Elites are a very tiny percentage of the quests ran on the servers on a daily basis so your point is rather moot.


    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    I think that people can play DDO the way they want - I've never understood people who claim that the game is too easy or promotes soloing, etc. I don't understand why people need to be "encouraged" to group - if that's what they want to do why don't they just do it?

    As for the OP, I think that when teamwork is "encouraged" by a MMO that = required grouping. If people want to have teamwork, they will. If anyone doesn't have teamwork while playing DDO it is only because one or more people in their "team" doesn't want it.
    I don't think grouping should be required either, just attractive. The devs could just do something simple, like give say a 15% XP bonus to any quest that is completed by a full party. Code it so players all have to be present during most of the quest to receive the bonus, that way you couldn't just get people to jump in at the end. That alone would go a long way in helping the pug scene and wouldn't hurt soloers a bit.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Right, theres a difference between teamwork desired for best results, and forced cooperation. Some people come here from MMOs where forced cooperation made it leveling and farming loot had one clear best way to do it in orders of magnitude, with a formulaic group made up of the holy trinity tank > heal > DPS > and some CC.

    While its fun to play this way, its no fun to have it be required for several reasons. One is that its not fun to wait for the less popular classes to become available in the LFM. The second is because having a specific class icon means having specific abilities, no more and no less. It gets boring real quick.

    On the other hand, in a game where its not required at all can become equally as stale. If everyone can heal and everyone can cc and everyone can be decent enough DPS, the class icon, and abilities associated with it become mere semantics.

    The answer of course in a game such as this, is to make the "forced cooperation" not require specific classes or roles, but have it built into the quest mechanics itself. There were alot of examples of this early on in the first few years of content, but only a few in the more recent content. Alot of the quests are fun forward and kill hack and slash etc....
    Finding a middle ground is what I see as the best way. Allowing some level of character diversity, but not a comfortable level. DDO devs tossed a lot of the ability to do this out the window when they chose to, basically, not have any real regeneration of pools in the game. So instead of soloing being a play>rest>play>rest...proposition, with grouping involving a lot less resting, we got scaling.

  9. #49
    Community Member JasonJi72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow View Post
    You two and I need to hook up.
    Are you leaving me Talon? *cries*

    Seriously, who is going to carry my soulstone now?

    Jyn.

    Heal a Barbarian?... Yeah right!

    Oh wait... I have a Barbarian now... *facepalm*
    Jyn... Kender... Thelanis

    *Insert clever comment here*

  10. #50
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pHo3nix View Post
    How is that not team play? More individuals working together to complete a task with efficiency is team play: you can't solo the 3 towers with the same speed of 3 toons each doing their tower (unless of course they are the kind of players that join the "wiz king--solo a tower" lfm and they die at the 1st mummy).
    Quote Originally Posted by mikarddo View Post
    As said - each toon running a tower completely seperated from the others isnt what I consider team work. Its smart and efficient but doesnt really involve working together.

    True that team work does not always mean having to stop to make a plan - it can also simply be something that happens - you are definitely correct about that. Still, that seems somewhat on the low side in DDO compared to many other games as well quite likely because most characters in DDO are designed to work well enough alone and hence dont regularly have to enhance each other apart from throwing a Cocoon when someone is stunned or similar small stuff

    I am not saying this is all bad either. As someone else posted its also because one DDO character is usually able to able many enemies at a time where in other games it often takes the combined effort of several characters to handle one or a few enemies. Obviously the latter promotes a greater deal of teamwork and player interaction.

    I'm going to add to this the fact that in PnP a group of 3 Players would NEVER split up in this dungeon!
    A Group of 6 wouldn't even consider splitting up.

    Wiz King is in my view one of the worst designed quests in DDO.


    On the other hand we've got Shadow Crypt...Which yes can be soloed by those with the right abilities, gear etc. BUT usually involves the group sticking together {We'll ignore the pikers at the start which are usually latecomers anyway}.


    Every one of the Necropolis quests feels like PnP - Even those that are universally loathed:

    Tomb of the Tormented - You've got your Maze Runner, your trapper and if done right everyone else coordinates killing trash.

    Tomb of the Blighted - Eurrgh - Horrid quest but would be remembered for years as a great PnP session or three!

    Tomb of the Unhallowed and Forbidden - Again the group sticks together {except for the two spots with levers - and even then Teamplay is Required unless you know the metagame}.

    Cursed Crypt - Yes you see people going off in separate directions in good groups but again Teamplay is pretty strong in this one.

    Shadow Guard - Usually soloed by the one person who knows it with everyone else following along behind BUT when you get a good group those fights between swims that can be insane solo become a breeze.

    Shadow Lord - Again there's the metagame {Hirelings at levers} or you can split into Two groups - This is another quest that would provide hours of satisfaction for a PnP group.

    Shadow King - Stick together, Bring the mobs to one spot {the lights} throw Firewall, Acid Rain, ice Storm, Blade Barrier etc. Profit - Random Traps and a truly horrific end fight when it works - This is Teamplay at it's finest!

    Shadow Guard - One of my favourite quests in the entire game - Usually soloed on Rogues with a Cleric Hire or Cleric with a Rogue Hire BUT again is on a different level with a group.

    Bloody Crypt - Splitting up would not be considered in PnP and I prefer to avoid it in DDO BUT this quest does not suffer as much from the solo a side as Wiz King Does.
    Groups regularly stick together!

    Burning Heart - ENFORCED Splitting up at the start but done right and a PnP Group would just become two three man teams at this point.

    Crimson Heart and Sanguine Heart - Both can be zerged or methodically run in pretty much the same time period {Zerging doesn't speed em up that much} - Well made quests.

    Immortal Heart - Super Easy when zerged, Optionals are out of the way and rarely done - I like this quest but I know it's badly made - The weak link in Necro.


    And back to Sands:

    Chains of Flame and Offering of Blood are much better designed quests than Wiz King as both promote Teamwork!
    ADQ despite the preponderance of one person soloing the quest while the LFM is up also works in a group.


    Yes I know that EVERY SINGLE Quest in DDO can be soloed but Teamwork is also available and required by the majority of players.

    Wiz King's big issue has always been the BYOH Solo a Tower Crowd and the impossibility of learning it solo as a newbie - So rarely do you see Groups up for this quest that aren't BYOH, Solo a Tower {+ these days IP Multiple runs} that it just kills the quest viability.

    And yes you can say Learn it - Don't join my BYOH Solo a Tower Group until you know it off by heart BUT that is easier said than done and you should NOT have to run a quest solo before being allowed into groups. {It should be the other way round in fact and despite the horror of trying to keep up with groups in Tempest Spine the first few times and then the horror of trying to keep a Tempest Spine group together as leader when the zergers go charging off while I'm trying to make sure the newbies are through the Lava I love said raid - I Truly LOATHE Wiz King!}.

    If I can run it solo why do I even NEED a group? then comes up and you get even more BYOH Solo a Tower LFMs!

    It's a self fulfilling prophecy!

  11. #51
    Community Member pHo3nix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrande View Post

    Unless, they changed the mechanism that all bosses on all towers need to die within 10 seconds of each other or they resurrect in 1 minute.
    How is this better team work? It would just mean that the faster ones have to prepare their bosses and then wait for the slower ones to do the same, it would require someone to write in chat or say in voicechat "kill" and that is. You coudn't solo it anymore and people that aren't able to solo a tower would be utterly useless, while now they are just way less useful than people that can solo a tower but can still be helpful (maybe).

    I find that there's way more team work in n toons built to solo working together than in a "perfect" party, where team work means that everyone depends too much on the others to work properly and if the healer dies it usually means wipe.
    Cannith: Hazrael--Nyal--Thalax

  12. #52
    Community Member Ryiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    On the other hand we've got Shadow Crypt...
    Except that Shadow Crypt is ideally run with two groups splitting up for approximately two-thirds of the quest. One group heads east from the start and the other heads west. Both meet up at the levers and continue on from there.
    Ryiah | Raeyah | Reikara
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  13. #53
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryiah View Post
    Except that Shadow Crypt is ideally run with two groups splitting up for approximately two-thirds of the quest. One group heads east from the start and the other heads west. Both meet up at the levers and continue on from there.
    This is NOT the way DDOWiki shows.

    A way that I've used to great effect many times.

    I'm glad for you that you've found a way to shave even more seconds off the completion time BUT doing it your way it would require many runs for a newbie to become competent - Following the Wiki it takes ONE!


    The one thing people forget is that Newbies can take different amounts of time to memorize a quest - Some people may run Shadow Crypt once per life; not running it again until 6 months later - They may NEVER become competent at your route as they'd need to memorize both ways for safety whereas thanks to DDOWiki there's a much better way to learn it for all.

    And a group that sticks together does NOT take any longer on that route than one that splits up. In fact it's usually faster in my experience!


    Now you could make this point for Wiz King too I don't doubt - The DDOWiki is brought up quite often as a great learning aid - BUT the difference is that it only requires ONE Person to know Shadow Crypt to competently lead a group of fresh out the box Newbies through it {at least till the end when you find you're the only one who can harm the Vamp that is!}.
    And it's rare to find a Shadow Crypt group up there the leader refuses to lead.

    On the other hand it's virtually impossible to find a Wiz King Group up with a leader willing to Lead!

  14. #54
    Community Member Ryiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    I'm glad for you that you've found a way to shave even more seconds off the completion time BUT doing it your way it would require many runs for a newbie to become competent - Following the Wiki it takes ONE!
    It is considerably faster than seconds. Closer to minutes depending on the party. Each group handles four of the gears as opposed to a single party dealing with all eight.

    http://ddowiki.com/page/The_Shadow_C...uo_Walkthrough - Two group path courtesy of the source you claim does not have it
    Ryiah | Raeyah | Reikara
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  15. #55
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryiah View Post
    It is considerably faster than seconds. Closer to minutes depending on the party. Each group handles four of the gears as opposed to a single party dealing with all eight.

    http://ddowiki.com/page/The_Shadow_C...uo_Walkthrough - Two group path courtesy of the source you claim does not have it
    Yay the DDOWiki's added it since I last looked {Possibly I missed it back then as I wasn't after 8 gear runs} - Good to know.

    But here's where we disagree:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryiah View Post
    Each group handles four of the gears as opposed to a single party dealing with all eight.
    I never go for Eight when there's Twelve available!


    If you're all about zerging to the end in the fastest time possible then it's great that there's a way for you to do that.

    UNFORTUNATELY there's many people playing DDO who don't subscribe to that playstyle and they should be looked after too so as we don't end up with one server running.


    You can call me names if u like {gimp, bad, noob whatever} BUT I prefer to look at gameplay & difficulty from the perspective of a 1st life newbie as opposed to the perspective of a Twinked Out 3rd Life+ Vet!
    And yes I do have Two 3rd Life Characters though neither could be considered twinked out on their current life.

    I know well the difficulty difference between playing my 3rd Life and my 1st lifers.
    I know well the change in difficulty NOT having 30 resists and +2 Shrines provides.
    I have been involved in some embarrasing wipes and in a small few rescues.
    I've seen players {not me} booted from parties for having too few HP without even a word AND Known at the time that none of the 3-4 Casters of that level I had at that time would have been able to get to the HP total supposedly wanted but NOT posted in the LFM!
    I've led Pugs and joined Pugs led by others.
    I've ran with Good Healers and Bad.
    I've ran with Good Trappers and Bad
    I've ran with Great Tanks and with None.
    I've seen the vast difference Good CC makes to a Party's chances {and yes it's VAST!}.
    I've played every character class and race though not all builds as I prefer to gimp my own toons thank you.

    I regularly state things on these forums that others violently disagree with but that I do believe in {No Trolling here}.

    I do find it hard to get along with people although conversely I find I'm a good leader when I need to be.

    AND I'm always willing to help others so long as I'm not busy with something else at the time. {as too often is the case}.


    I may have had considerably different views on Wiz King had it been that two years ago I'd been able to find a group willing to run the entire quest BUT that was an impossibility then and it's an Impossibility now!

    The last couple of times I ran Wiz King I got lucky in that the Boss was in the first tower - Because of my severe dislike of this quest at that point I simply say Yay and move on.

    I STILL haven't learned more than one tower in this quest and have no intentions of learning it in future as to me it is a Necessary Evil that I have to get through and so long as there's IP Multiple Run Groups up I'm happy to join them for my completion.

    AND I'd guess that there's many more players out there who do the same simply because like me they've never been given the chance to learn the d@rn quest in a GROUP!

    Soloing with a Hire the whole quest and attempting to Solo a Tower while in a full group are two entirely different things as y'all well know!

    Soloing on a Lesser Difficulty then joining a group on the only difficulty it's ever run - ELITE BB - thinking Hey I know this quest is a recipe for disaster and Blacklisting!


    Be fair to the Newbies and Put up a Wiz King Learning Run once a week those of you who know it so well - I most likely won't join as I hate the quest that much BUT newer players than me will not be so jaded!

  16. #56
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    I'm glad I've been in a group where shadow crypt was done the way it was supposed to
    We started following the wiki, but all of us got on the wrong path. So, we started viewing the crypt as a maze. I took a paper and started noting down the paths we were taking. It took 1.5 hour to complete but it was a GREAT experience.
    After that I entered the crypt solo enough times to scribe all 3 instances in paper. That way noone gets lost anymore in my groups. Just say which room you're into and I'll find a way to get to us without needing to follow the wiki way from the start.

    I also found an extra room in one of the instances. The one that has blue fountains east has an extra green room. It has green attic, water, pyramid, fountains. The green attic can only be accessed if you go east from blue water. And every exit of green attic leads to center. I was thrilled with the discovery

    More on topic, adventures that come to mind that require synergy are "summoning chamber" (big fan, even through lag), Spinner of Shadows (*) (I love when we breeze through epic elite with the cleric never needing to shrine with a mediocre group, because we simply worked together and everyone followed instructions).
    Every once in a while I also have those kinds of experience in normal, zerging quests. I did an epic hard Feast or Famine and everyone was playing his role nicely. I was the fighter and took aggro off everyone else and then got the mobs wherever the wizard placed his AOEs. The fvs had no trouble keeping me up while still throwing a bunch of cometfalls. The monk was at the back of the mobs finishing them off. The paladin was a bit weak so he played the role of secondary tank, keeping anything that slipped past me to the casters. The rogue mechanic was with the caster contributing nicely to DPS and also was the one that opened ALL the levers and doors in the quest.

  17. #57
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    There's really nothing more that I could add to this thread, very good points have been made.
    The reasons for me personally are:
    -Teamplay can make you lose xp/min because it might slow you down.
    -Soloing is barely harder.
    -Lots of parties are just group soloing/zerg rushing.

    I remember when self-healing was very rare and was quite near imbalanced.
    I also remember the times when I was considered cool for soloing epics.

  18. #58
    Community Member AzB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow View Post
    You two and I need to hook up.
    BYOH, Know it, be useful, zerrrgggg!

    I'm on Cannith, send me a pm if you are too.

  19. #59
    Community Member pHo3nix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post


    I may have had considerably different views on Wiz King had it been that two years ago I'd been able to find a group willing to run the entire quest BUT that was an impossibility then and it's an Impossibility now!
    We've all been new to the game once, none of us spawn with full knowledge of quests. I think that the only way to really learn a quest is soloing it, i've always done that when i was a newbie and i'm still doing it now: the only difference is that when i was a newbie i tried to solo them on normal, now i try to solo them on elite.

    The real problem today is that everyone feels entitled to Elite BB even if they are bad players with bad toons, and it's not only a problem of 1st life toon; there are toons with multiple lives that are so bad i usually wonder how the hell they could reach cap so many times, then i remember that stones and uber xp pots create a new generation of noobs that think they are good cause they can buy past lives and gears with real money but that really cannot play the game.
    Cannith: Hazrael--Nyal--Thalax

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    Some friends and I used to use synergy and strategy in epic elite all the time, like funnelling enemies into chokepoints with Sleet Storm and Symbol of Death cast on them. There's a lot you can do if you work together. We got completions on some content we were seriously underequipped for owing to persistence and willingness to try out different tactics to beat the encounter.

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