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  1. #1
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Default Something worth Grinding For.

    The Ultimate Weapon.

    Ok lets be real, level cap is hitting 30, TR is the new end game, so it's time for this to come to life, but an idea like this needs to have dynamic to it, it needs to have prose and purpose, you can't just drop some ultimate weapon into a quest and call it done, no that simply would not do, if you plan to a final weapon for a type, it needs to have a journey behind it, a story, a purpose and a meaning, but above all, it needs to be a painfully laborious grind to obtain, or else, it's simply not fun.

    So, allow me to explain my idea in a manner that I know. See I am a collector of dwarf axes, it just was the thing I enjoyed from the game, it's what I used in PnP when I played a dwarf, a dwarf used a dwarf axe, so that was how I played, and how I approached DDO, and it worked well for me. I am sure others have number crushed and picked their preferred ideal weapon that they tended to collect from one life to another to another, building upon a theme. I could be wrong, but that is what I have done, so I wager I can't be the only one who has done this.

    So here goes my idea, Kruz knows of another druid of his kind, a Druid of the Eternal Life, and they have finally unlocked the means to fuse a soul of a person to their cherished weapon, literally making a Living Weapon that shares a heart beat with its wielder.

    To make this Living Weapon, a player must collect every weapon of the same kind into a collecting "bag" think to necro IV, where you collect tome pages or shield parts into a "bag", this "bag" would get a fancy name, we shall call it the "Schematic of War" for weapon (I have a reason for this)
    Each weapon type would get its own Semantic: IE: 1 for Quarterstaffs, 1 for Great Axes, 1 for Great Swords, 1 for Daggers, 1 for Khopeh, 1 for Scimitars, Etc, etc, etc, there would be 1 for each and every weapon type, including Long bows, Throwing axes, etc.

    Visual example as follows.

    The next part would be that a player would then need to "collect" the parts, for some items it would be simple, for example, with a Great Axe, simply collect all the "special" great axe's in the game, IE: all Named Great Axes, as well as GS and Alchemical.

    A point of stipulation, you would only need to collect a single variant of each type, IE: You could use Either The base Antique Great Axe OR the Epic A-Great axe, you would not need both, you would not need to upgrade the GS item or Alchemical, you would not need to upgrade Cleaver, etc, etc, as long as you had a great axe of any variant of the type needed it would be enough.

    Now, the next question "what about the easy ones, like Great Crossbow, that has a grand total of 3 items to get?, being the Korthos, GS, and Alchemical."
    Ok, well barring the fact that the weapon sucks and no one uses it, and that is why it's not being added to, that is a great question.
    The idea would be there would need to a minimum number of "special" items that a player would need to acquire, if the single class of weapons did not have enough, like for example: Great Crossbows, Hand Axes, Darts, Throwing axes, Light Hammers, Throwing Hammers, they would need to fill the gaps with other items from a similar group to balance things out.

    I mean lets be real here, it's not fair that someone needs to farm around 25 Long bows to get a Living Longbow, while someone else only needs to acquire 3 throwing axes to get a living throwing axe, beyond you know, the fact that Longbows totally outclass throwing axes, so, to fix that issue other items would be added to the mix to make things a bit more fair, For example, to get any of the Throwing Weapons, you would need to collect ALL the throwing weapons in the game, (IE: All Throwing hammers, axes, Daggers, and Shurikens) and which one you got would be contingent upon the "Bag" you started with.

    So in that front, to get a Throwing Weapon, you would need to collect all 19 different throwing items in the game, while still a bit less than the bow, let's be real, throwing weapons are quite a bit less powerful then Longbows anyway, so it really does balance out as far as the game balance goes.

    So we get the idea of how things will be balanced, the next question is of course, why do this? What do I get from this "Living Weapon"

    Ok, well my motives are quite simple, and I have 3 of them.
    1: The idea to put a new kind of grind into the game for players to quest after, something for the player that may already have "everything" this gives them something to work for, but more than that, it spans the whole game, not just one pack that you end up endlessly grinding the same 6 quests, you now span the whole game with your quest to obtain this "Living Weapon"
    2: It frees up inventory, the idea is once a players get this Living Weapon, they will no longer need to a full bank tab of stuff to deal with each and every situation.
    3: Increase activity along older and more varying content.

    Ok, now, the next question:

    What do I get for all that, I mean, what is this "Living Weapon"

    Ok, it's a weapon that levels with you, it binds to the character, and matches their level. I know the tech is there for weapon to know a characters alignment and class, so it has to be there to know the characters level as well.

    In that front, the Living Weapon becomes both a one-time quest weapon, and an ideal TR item, that would serve its soul mate through all levels, but would not level up 1 level at a time, it would have tiers to how it leveled.

    It would level at 1, 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18, (This ends Heroic) and then 21, 24, 27, and 30th. (Which perfectly Ends Epic)

    Now, before people get in on why I split this like this, it's pretty straight forward, the last Heroic Level needs to be 18th, because most (not all) TR's will take 18th and then jump to 20th, this means that 18th level will see the most activity along the hardest content, so the weapon needs to get an update right at that point to keep it top notch and viable.
    Also, it would cap perfectly as the proposed end game of 30th, so players who have hit cap, would still have their "trusty friend" right to the end.

    The base stats of all "Living Weapon" would be +.5[w], and No matter the type (IE: Axe, Sword, Bow, Dagger) of weapon it would do: Piercing, Slash, and Blunt damage. It would aligned, metalline, and made of Crystal.
    Now from there, it would "grow" in power with each "Level" jump it took, that way it never becomes this "over powered" like many older raid items, that are amazing at their level, make astounding twink items, but then burn out. (all data is made up and only to be used as a guideline as to where Living weapons should fall in power levels vs level of toon as they level).



    The exact stats would need to be worked out based on each type of weapon, I mean what works for a bow is not really going to work for a great axe, equally so, what works for a dagger is not going to work for a cross bow, so, each weapon type would need to cater to a play style.

    But there would be a few "Universal Traits:
    1st level: They would all be "Keen" (as well as additional traits signature to their weapon type)
    3rd level: they would all be 1 [w] and "Ghost Touch" (as well as additional traits signature to their weapon type)
    6th Level: they would all be 1.5[w] (as well as additional traits signature to their weapon type)
    12th they would all be at least 2[w] (as well as additional traits signature to their weapon type)
    15th they would 2.5 [w] and have improved crit range. (as well as additional traits signature to their weapon type)
    18th they would all be 3[w] (as well as additional traits signature to their weapon type)
    a few things would be noted,
    Melee weapons as the levels up go, would proc heal effects on hits, from lesser vamp at levels 6 to greater vamp by level 12, as well as similar effects to how the axe of famine works, where it proc's a restoration.
    I'll leave the floor open to what other classes would want in that regards, because I am sure there would be many things I will overlook, and things I had not thought of, my hope here was to lay a foundation for this idea, and see where it could be improved.

    This idea could also open the door for others things to be made, like armor, jewelry, clothing, etc, so that a player could in fact be fully equipped in "Living" gear at some time in the future.

    On final stipulation would be, to keep things going, when a new weapon of the type was put into the game, all older Living weapons would deactivate (Like the completionist feat goes away if a new class is added, in this case, I guess the weapon would return to it's "base" state, while still not bad, it would not be viable in the end game) and would not reactivate until it was 'fused' with the new weapon of its type, while I realize that may not be appreciated, it would need to be there to keep the grind up and justify new weapons and items being put into the game.

    All "Schematic" bags would be need to be updated to contain the new weapons, so that any future Living weapons would need to be made with the new items as well as all the old ones. I am not sure how much I like this idea, I mean I realize that it might not go over well, it's also kinda needed to keep the replay value ongoing, and justify people running the new stuff when it comes out, you know. The trick at that point would be to limit the amount of new named items per "pack/expansion"but given loot gen is the new "new thing" I am not so sure this would even be a worry.

    Such is my idea.

  2. #2
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    wish i wasn't out of rep...

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  3. #3
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    I agree that some sort of weapon that travels along TRs with a character could be an interesting concept, and I've been dabbling with a few ideas of my own for such a thing. If you'll forgive me, I don't quite agree with this set-up.

    I do enjoy the idea of a weapon that levels with you, but the ultimate weapon is a bit too much power, too fast. I think people would be more inclined to just grind out all of the weapons on one life rather then work for it over time with TRs. Once they have it, they then have a super weapon they have little-to-no reason to ever part from. It breaks all the DRs, it deals more damage, you plan that it gives health back, and then extra stuff on top of all that? If Lv 21+ living weapons continue to grow as the heroic levels, it will also outshine anything future-wise, unless they make Lv 30 EE raid loot extremely ridiculous. And given Turbine's current choices with loot gen and named items, it brings doubt to the ability to surpass the current suggested weapons.

    I think this would harm the raid scene even more then current loot gen. With the Ultimate Weapon needing any copy of a particular named item, I think people will just race through EN content to get the copy they need. They won't need to run raid content anymore except to get non-weapon items. Though, this brings up a good question - is the Ultimate Weapon exclusive? I would suggest so; that would give two-weapon fighters at least incentive to grind raids, for a good off-hand pairing.

    I would strongly urge you to not include special event loot on the weapon lists. Although Turbine does recycle some, there can be quite the period between the events showing up, and you never know when they decide to retire a particular event.

    As a few alternatives to think about, I've had two concepts I've been entertaining for a 'Legacy" item, but haven't flushed out yet:

    Idea 1:
    Certain items have a "Legacy Augment Slot." When you perform a TR or epic TR (not certain which, perhaps even both are required), whatever augment crystal that is in the legacy slot fuses permanently with the item, and the legacy augment slot is empty, ready for another one. The item can store up to 6 different abilities in this manner; if you TR with a 7th ability in the Legacy Slot, you must choose one of the 7 abilities to drop. If, however, the filled slot is the same or similar as an existing stored ability (Like, a 2d6 Fire augment crystal in the slot, and you already have 2d6 fire), the abilities stack up to a certain point.

    This particular route would allow a player to effectively customize their item as they wished, but it would take time to get that powerful. A new thought just struck me - perhaps a Heroic TR fuses an ability to the weapon, while an Epic TR allows the same ability to be fused and stacked atop of it, up to a certain maximum.

    Idea 2:
    A special item that get additional bonuses based on your heroic and Epic past lives, based on what lives you have and how many.
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  4. #4
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    An overall interesting idea, but you lost me when you suggest collecting all of the named versions of a weapon type. For dwarven axes, not a big deal. For other weapons, very huge time sink. I should loot a twilight on my acrobat so I can upgrade the ultimate quarterstaff? After 6 years, I still don't have a Sword of Shadows, let alone an extra one to set aside to craft with.

    Don't get me wrong, I like the overall proposal, but there is such a huge disparity in the number of some types of weapons that you create a massive grind for some when it's not necessary for any sort of balance. I get the personal collection aspect, but for this to have a wider audience, I'd think you'll need to modify that part.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by katz View Post
    wish i wasn't out of rep...
    You can't give negative rep anymore.
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    While the concept is interesting, I don't believe DDO has the drive or capability to make anything to this degree.

    They would have to introduce new stuff that fits the mold of the new system, and at this point I would not have it as specific weapons.
    I would have it as a base weapon that you achieve through some sort of initial quest and then have options from various quests/raids to upgrade with ingredients.

    Similar to starting with a base Greensteel and then shard crafting to upgrade.. just over a longer period of time and more tiers as you level coming from several different area's..
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    Cool Good Idea

    I like this idea a lot! (I like long grinds for cool rewards) But, I am hoping beyond hope that they Epicify Vale of Twilight for Endgame gear & weapons. Someone mentioned it in the forums and I've been salivating at the idea since.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JOTMON View Post
    You can't give negative rep anymore.

    i wasn't thinking of negative....

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  8. #8
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post
    Don't get me wrong, I like the overall proposal, but there is such a huge disparity in the number of some types of weapons that you create a massive grind for some when it's not necessary for any sort of balance. I get the personal collection aspect, but for this to have a wider audience, I'd think you'll need to modify that part.
    I did address this.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    I did address this.
    Sorry, it was a long post and I missed it. I'll skim it again when I'm bored.

    The concept of upgradable weapons that level with you is promising. I'm just not a fan of the 100% collection aspect tied to the advancement.
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    I like it.
    Ooooo
    Also the thread name has me humming the Mulan song.

    "What do we waaant? A weapon worth fighting fooooor!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Substitutename View Post
    Also the thread name has me humming the Mulan song.

    "What do we waaant? A weapon worth fighting fooooor!"
    Yeah, me too.

    Another idea has struck me - rather then being a storage item that holds all the different weapons, what if the "Living Weapon" itself was the container? You do "something" to get the living weapon - maybe run high-end raids to get one to drop, or maybe even buy one via CoV for an exuberant amount.

    When you first get the living weapon, it has some raw stats, it's alright, nothing too amazing. But, when you store a particular named weapon in it, that's when the Living Weapon gets a buff. For weapons that have different versions based on difficulty, the higher the version, the stronger the buff, and overrides lower ones. A named weapon may add to the Living Weapon's enchantment modifier, or some damage, provide a little toward special abilities, etc. That way, someone can continue to build up its strength as they run around collecting more weapons. Also, when new weapons are introduced, the living weapon doesn't get completely reset, it just has the potential for more powers.
    Anything can be explained by drunken wizards.

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  12. #12
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    Default /tongue in cheek -- You've been watching 2 much Soul Eater Glane!

    /tongue in cheek -- You've been watching 2 much Soul Eater Glane! (I kid, I kid!) :P! !!

    Cool idea! Props for all the hard work into making the post/thread!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul_Eater_(manga) (just in case glane hasn't heard of Soul Eater, also NOT saying that is where u got the idea from at all!).
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    The Ultimate Weapon.
    Such is my idea.
    And a good one it is!
    I like the concept of the weapon leveling up with you, and not having to carry around an arsenal.
    I like the concept of spanning multiple content and levels to put this together as opposed to just one set of 4-6 grind-it-until-it-hurts quests.

    +1
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  14. #14
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whereispowderedsilve View Post
    /tongue in cheek -- You've been watching 2 much Soul Eater Glane! (I kid, I kid!) :P! !!

    Cool idea! Props for all the hard work into making the post/thread!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul_Eater_(manga) (just in case glane hasn't heard of Soul Eater, also NOT saying that is where u got the idea from at all!).
    I admit.. I had never.. ever.. heard of that anime.. and the story line looks.. rather amusingly crazy.

  15. #15
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Worldcrafter View Post
    Yeah, me too.

    Another idea has struck me - rather then being a storage item that holds all the different weapons, what if the "Living Weapon" itself was the container? You do "something" to get the living weapon - maybe run high-end raids to get one to drop, or maybe even buy one via CoV for an exuberant amount.

    When you first get the living weapon, it has some raw stats, it's alright, nothing too amazing. But, when you store a particular named weapon in it, that's when the Living Weapon gets a buff. For weapons that have different versions based on difficulty, the higher the version, the stronger the buff, and overrides lower ones. A named weapon may add to the Living Weapon's enchantment modifier, or some damage, provide a little toward special abilities, etc. That way, someone can continue to build up its strength as they run around collecting more weapons. Also, when new weapons are introduced, the living weapon doesn't get completely reset, it just has the potential for more powers.
    I thought of this, and some fuseable construct was my original idea (Similar to the Lordsmarch weapons, where you combine different weapons to gain additional effects), and it was from there that built this idea.

    See, a large part of the appeal is not simply in a gimmick but about attaining something that is ultimately great.

    In that venture, my hope was to put into the game something that would fit the bill as THE "End Game" weapon for those that do not like to TR, while at the same time serve them for their next life IF they opt to peruse it sometime in the future.

    It's goal was to cater to both communities, after all, it is Their Cherished Soul Bound Weapon, for this life and if they opt, for the next.

  16. #16

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    I dislike a single weapon that combines:

    - Blunt, Piercing and Slashing damage
    - Metalline
    - Aligned

    Once you get the living weapon you equip it and never, ever, ever switch it out for any reason? No thanks.

  17. #17
    Community Member taurean430's Avatar
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    This is a pretty interesting idea.

    The danger level seems high though at first read. I'd say there's a definite reason named khopeshes more or less disappeared and no upgrade to the ESOS can be found. The capitan obvious portion being they dwarfed other available weapons to the degree of being viewed as the only option for relative builds.

    Too many dr bypassing effects on one weapon I think though...
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    Well, contemplating it again, the weapon is meant to be gained after you have gotten every. Single. Other. Weapon. Of the same type, at least. And enough of whatever the "special ingredient" is to balance out the weapons that have few named.

    Oh! Can the ingredient be "The Shattered Dreams of Players?" Since, y'know, they want more named items of the weapon type they want, and it didn't happen?

    So many shattered dreams for great crossbow...

    Back on track. Some people keep a "golf bag of weapons," where they have their bag stuffed with so many different items to respond to so many situational encounters. Given how much of a grind it would be to make a particular Ultimate Weapon, I could see them not minding a single condensing item.

    The issue for me arises that this would kill new content weapons, unless the new weapons had ridiculous, new powers. Otherwise, someone would only grind for them so they could restore their Living Weapon to full function again. There would be Living Weapons, and then other content would have to offer other items to be considered worthwhile.
    Anything can be explained by drunken wizards.

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  19. #19
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Worldcrafter View Post
    Well, contemplating it again, the weapon is meant to be gained after you have gotten every. Single. Other. Weapon. Of the same type, at least. And enough of whatever the "special ingredient" is to balance out the weapons that have few named.

    Oh! Can the ingredient be "The Shattered Dreams of Players?" Since, y'know, they want more named items of the weapon type they want, and it didn't happen?

    So many shattered dreams for great crossbow...
    I laughed.

    On a serious note, I would wager that the overall demand would be around 25 weapons I guess it could be less for 1 handed weapons as most players would want 2 of them, or a weapon and a shield. So, there would need to be a balance and the overall numbers would need to be worked out.

    The idea of course would be that this would have to be a large scale grind, spanning many levels and packs. I understand that it would need work to get to the exact requirements of each item.

    Back on track. Some people keep a "golf bag of weapons," where they have their bag stuffed with so many different items to respond to so many situational encounters. Given how much of a grind it would be to make a particular Ultimate Weapon, I could see them not minding a single condensing item.
    This was my thinking. After all, this is meant to replace your other weapons.

    I guess in a lore sense, the idea is for it to be a sentient weapon, that adapts to any situation that it encounters, after all, it contains the soul of the player that crafted it, as such, it has a life within it.

    On a real sense, while it's ability to bypass DR would make it the go-to weapon (which was the whole point of making it to start with) in terms of raw power on a scale of 1 - 10, it would be around a constant of 7, where loot-gen if replaced regularly could maintained at around a 3 - 4, with the rare find raid gear that starts at a 9 and dwindles down to a 2 as the levels move on, and then needs to be replaced, but players are looking for that 9 spike, but that spike does not come in the later levels.

    So, in terms of raw power, breaking out the GS (which is the highest "spike" raid gear in the game) at level 12 might be better then keeping the Living weapon going, by level 15, the living weapon is quickly rivaling it, it's other "features" however, are what should make it the idea choice for a player, like as I tried to point, its things like life recovery for melee that it gives more desired options.

    In the end of things, yes, it would be at the final end, the best weapon in the game, that is its overall intention. But it would be elegant in that regard as opposed to brutal about it.

    The issue for me arises that this would kill new content weapons, unless the new weapons had ridiculous, new powers. Otherwise, someone would only grind for them so they could restore their Living Weapon to full function again. There would be Living Weapons, and then other content would have to offer other items to be considered worthwhile.
    I have no intention for this weapon to something everyone will have in their golf bag, in fact, I expect it to be out of reach for the majority of players, like the eSoS continues to remain, so new raid gear will remain a viable option for many if not most of the player base.

    This is intended as I put forth, for the players who like a particular type of weapon, and most likely already have everything in regards to it, and are looking for the "final" thing, that "End Game" weapon.

    Knowing that if the game grows, they will need to grow with it again, the wheel never really stops.
    Last edited by Ungood; 10-31-2013 at 07:30 PM.

  20. #20
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    I dislike a single weapon that combines:

    - Blunt, Piercing and Slashing damage
    - Metalline
    - Aligned

    Once you get the living weapon you equip it and never, ever, ever switch it out for any reason? No thanks.
    I don't understand this, what would be the motive to grind across the entire game, every pack, raid, and expansion, to create this "final weapon" just so you invariably have to swap out?

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