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  1. #21
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    Seriously...this is something I hate about the game right now. The capstones need to be much better, pure builds should all be viable. I'm all for multi-classing but right now it seems like any melee build without at least 6 monk and any divine build without 2 monk is gimp.

  2. #22
    Community Member brian14's Avatar
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    On capstone which is definitely NOT better than evasion (in fact complete **** IMO) is ranger capstone. Of course rangers get evasion too...
    "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder."

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  3. #23
    Bwest Fwiends Memnir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorian View Post
    There was a Dev quote a while ago stating that capstone enhancements should be as good as or better than evasion. And that is how they made their design decisions.
    They actually said that?




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  4. #24
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirgog View Post
    Kensai capstone is pretty sick.
    And not ever close to good enough to make up for the loss of the broken synergies from splashing.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Memnir View Post
    They actually said that?

    Yup. It was during Shadowfell "expansion" BETA. And here's the exact quote:

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Ideally any capstone is at least as good as Evasion (if not better).

    We understand some work may need to be done on individual abilities to achieve the proper balance.
    Later on when players complained about the bad capstones, we were told by the Devs that they had received nothing but positive feedback about the Capstones. So either the surveys during BETA weren't working or whoever compiled the information ignored most (or all) of the negative feedback about the Capstones.

    During the Lamannia chat sessions, I believe it was Steelstar who became the point man about the Capstones. His replies were basically, we're looking into it but we feel they are balanced enough. I forget if it was Steelstar or Vargouille during the same period of time said that they wanted to hear only realistic improvements of Capstones and were ignoring calls for bettering until then.

    ...And there's been no revisit to capstones. Or talk of capstones since the "realistic capstones" entered into the conversation.

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Memnir View Post
    They actually said that?
    Yes, you see they were practicing their new EXTREME philosophy.
    Things worthy of Standing Stone going EXTREME PREJUDICE™ on.:
    • NEW - Fix the flipping non-proficiency penalties for wildshape!
    • Redo the Favor rewards so there is a reason to do max favor again.
    • Redoing the drop rates of tomes in generic and raid loot tables.
    • Task Lynnabel with updating the remaining legacy named loot to not suck.
    • Tiering the Runearms so that artificers aren’t screwed out of the advantages of Cannith Crafting in Epic levels on their signature item.
    • Finishing the enhancement tree passes (including racial PrE’s) before rolling out yet another DDOStore™ Enhancement Tree.

  7. #27
    Community Member IronClan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adelair View Post
    I really like the Rogue Assassin capstone, but then I already get Evasion and Improved Evasion.
    +4 sneak attack die is indeed an enticing capstone that (judging from the ultimate sneak attack thread) makes it impossible to build a higher sneak damage toon than a pure Rogue/Assassin.

    However

    You knew that was coming? An Assassin is so bound to Rogue levels (being your assassinate DC) that you could argue that Assassin is the one build that is almost certainly never going to splash in the entire game. even a two splash costs you 3 DC, triple the penalty that a Arcane pays for example. add the loss of 4d6 sneak... and no ones doing it.

    IMO you could make the argument that if every casting class had a capstone that gave the equivalent of 3 DC and 4d6 spell damage, no one would ever multiclass a caster again except for flavor builds. for that reason I think Assassin kinda sucks as a class/PrE because there's literally no multiclass option that is worthy of considering.

    I know it's radical but I honestly think they should put Evasion and improved evasion (for those with evasion already) in as ED level 30 feats (can only have one) along with some really nice other options that make it hard to just choose evasion.

    This will throw a wrench into the whole evasion splash thing.

    I also think Barbs should get evasion at 2 and improved evasion at 7 or 8. Because god knows that class needs some help, and evasion is thematic for the class.

  8. #28
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    +4 sneak attack die is indeed an enticing capstone that (judging from the ultimate sneak attack thread) makes it impossible to build a higher sneak damage toon than a pure Rogue/Assassin.

    However

    You knew that was coming? An Assassin is so bound to Rogue levels (being your assassinate DC) that you could argue that Assassin is the one build that is almost certainly never going to splash in the entire game. even a two splash costs you 3 DC, triple the penalty that a Arcane pays for example. add the loss of 4d6 sneak... and no ones doing it.

    IMO you could make the argument that if every casting class had a capstone that gave the equivalent of 3 DC and 4d6 spell damage, no one would ever multiclass a caster again except for flavor builds. for that reason I think Assassin kinda sucks as a class/PrE because there's literally no multiclass option that is worthy of considering.
    The capstones worth keeping are rare, fo sho.

    I know it's radical but I honestly think they should put Evasion and improved evasion (for those with evasion already) in as ED level 30 feats (can only have one) along with some really nice other options that make it hard to just choose evasion.
    In PNP this is found on GEAR. So is, FWIW, monk WIS to AC. You can freaking BUY that ****. Of course, there's also the Belt of Magnificence, which is pretty sick slot consolidation.

    This will throw a wrench into the whole evasion splash thing.
    If only evasion was the only splash. I like making evasion more obtainable, but I'd like the really bad capstones to get a big boost and maybe some tweaks on other trees.

    One thing that would work on some would be adding a few points of spell pen to caster capstones - and picking a few key spells and increasing their max CL (lots of the more common spells are max-CL at 15 or something silly).

    I also think Barbs should get evasion at 2 and improved evasion at 7 or 8.
    No - and definitely not so flipping early.
    Because god knows that class needs some help,
    Yes
    and evasion is thematic for the class.
    No. Give them more HP, bodyfeeder, lifeshield or anything like that if you want but what they need is more DPS.
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post

    I also think Barbs should get evasion at 2 and improved evasion at 7 or 8. Because god knows that class needs some help, and evasion is thematic for the class.
    I would love to see the barb and kensei capstones instead get some kind of additional big DPS bump (maybe CON as well for barbs). That way the best melee DPS in the game would come from pure melee builds, as I think would make sense. You'd then have to choose between DPS (pure) or survivability (splash). Right now the extra DPS from pure isn't there, no it makes no sense not to splash.

  10. #30
    Community Member IronClan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoogroves View Post

    No - and definitely not so flipping early.
    Any reason why? I think even with this, they take so much damage and are so much of a pain to heal in groups that they still need serious help. The truth is that Monk and Rogue get it this early and Both of those classes can be high Melee DPS when built right. Both of those classes have WAY WAY better survivability than a Barb, and bring more to a group than a Barb does. Granted Rogues are indeed a lot squishier but they don't tend to get mass aggro like a Barb does so that evens out. They can also mitigate aggro (Bluff diplo whatever) unlike a Barb... once Barb's HP bar is dropping like a rock it's going to keep dropping like a rock until the healer runs out of SP or the Barb becomes a stone, or the present pack of mobs all dies and on to the next, where you will again be baby sitting the Barbs health bar. Monks are worlds ahead in terms of healing them, having PRR and evasion makes a huge difference, avoiding the damage in the first place, and lets be honest, there are some Monk/Fighter builds that are comparable possibly even better sustained DPS (12/8 Monk Kensei) that have everything.

    I think 2 Barb getting evasion wouldn't even be enough, that's why I would put improved evasion at 7 or 8 (that's 1 or 2 levels sooner than Monk gets it). It fits the barb theme and it also adds another splash that is attractive to a game where 2 Rogue and 2 monk have ruled the roost for too long. At least then Barb's can join Pali's in the realm of "at least they're good for a 2 splash"

  11. #31
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    The sorc capstone is pretty awesome. Immunity to stuns, 2 charisma and 2% crit (5% ish damage), 30 spell power (another 5% is damage), 2 maximum caster levels (another 5% ish damage). Graphical change. Higher mana cost. I'm pretty happy with it. Considering my sorc has a 17 reflex save, I'd much rather have the capstone than evasion.

  12. #32
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Any reason why? I think even with this, they take so much damage and are so much of a pain to heal in groups that they still need serious help. The truth is that Monk and Rogue get it this early and Both of those classes can be high Melee DPS when built right. Both of those classes have WAY WAY better survivability than a Barb, and bring more to a group than a Barb does. Granted Rogues are indeed a lot squishier but they don't tend to get mass aggro like a Barb does so that evens out. They can also mitigate aggro (Bluff diplo whatever) unlike a Barb... once Barb's HP bar is dropping like a rock it's going to keep dropping like a rock until the healer runs out of SP or the Barb becomes a stone, or the present pack of mobs all dies and on to the next, where you will again be baby sitting the Barbs health bar. Monks are worlds ahead in terms of healing them, having PRR and evasion makes a huge difference, avoiding the damage in the first place, and lets be honest, there are some Monk/Fighter builds that are comparable possibly even better sustained DPS (12/8 Monk Kensei) that have everything.

    I think 2 Barb getting evasion wouldn't even be enough, that's why I would put improved evasion at 7 or 8 (that's 1 or 2 levels sooner than Monk gets it). It fits the barb theme and it also adds another splash that is attractive to a game where 2 Rogue and 2 monk have ruled the roost for too long. At least then Barb's can join Pali's in the realm of "at least they're good for a 2 splash"
    Because it isn't thematic and it doesn't improve their weakness (DPS).

    They can get evasion w/ a 2 level splash just like everyone else. The problem is that they can get better DPS by about another 18 levels of splash. Giving them evasion just makes them evadier and not hittier - and barbs need to be flipping hittier.

    Let the rangers have evasion, let the barbs hit like trucks.
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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Any reason why? I think even with this, they take so much damage and are so much of a pain to heal in groups that they still need serious help.
    The reason is because giving barbs evasion/better survivability would defeat the whole purpose of the class. Barbs aren't supposed to be survivable, by design they're supposed to be a Top tier DPS/ low survivability class. In fact barbs are by design are supposed to be the least survivable class in the game. Having the worst survivability in the game is supposed to in return give you the best melee DPS in the game. The problem is it doesn't...that's what they need to fix, the DPS part. Giving them evasion would make them too much like other classes.

  14. #34
    Community Member IronClan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoogroves View Post
    Because it isn't thematic and it doesn't improve their weakness (DPS).
    But it is thematic, they have uncanny dodge and jump/swim for the same reason because twisting/jumping/avoiding/moving athletically is thematic for a Barbarian, anticipating/sixth sense (trap sense) is also thematic.

    Their weakness is that they can't mitigate ANY significant source of damage and can't self heal worth a lick without 9tps per use Store elixers or unfun side effect silver flame pots. In a game where NO other class/build combo including many that have higher DPS, suffers anything remotely like that for the sake of their DPS.

  15. #35
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    But it is thematic, they have uncanny dodge and jump/swim for the same reason because twisting/jumping/avoiding/moving athletically is thematic for a Barbarian, anticipating/sixth sense (trap sense) is also thematic.

    Their weakness is that they can't mitigate ANY significant source of damage and can't self heal worth a lick without 9tps per use Store elixers or unfun side effect silver flame pots. In a game where NO other class/build combo including many that have higher DPS, suffers anything remotely like that for the sake of their DPS.
    What DPS are we talking about?
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  16. #36
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    The Troll capstone needs to be stronger.

  17. #37
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    Barbarians aren't a soft DPS class, they're tough guys. They're actually meant to be tougher and more vigorous than the Fighter, but with weaker armour and less combat skill. Warriors of the heart rather than of the head.

    Frenzied Berserkers are meant to be suicidal DPS, sure, and that's one way to take the Barbarian class... but not is it not the only way, it's not even the major way. Ravager is probably the tree that's closest to the original core Barbarian, having balanced offense and defense with a eye towards having lots of health and dealing big or nasty hits.

    The problem with the Barbarian is that his base mechanics are outdated or underplayed, and he doesn't get enough compensation for his fairly savage drawbacks. He doesn't need evasion, and frankly the game doesn't need more character that do rely on evasion. If I wanted to buff him, I'd look at ideas such as:

    Rage granting additional temporary hit points when activated, possibly with a component that refreshes regularly throughout the entire duration of the rage.
    Rage granting some "modern" melee damage bonus, perhaps a percentage damage increase while active or after scoring a vorpal hit.
    Increasing the Damage Reduction for all Barbarians to scale up to 10 by level 20 and granting an equal amount of resistance to all elements.
    The introduction of some component of PRR, as Barbarians are meant to be tough and take hits well, ie, modernising his Damage Reduction.
    Increasing the Barbarian's bonus speed as he levels up. He gets much more than 10% in tabletop, I don't see why he couldn't get, say 20% at class level 10..
    Adding stances that modify the behaviour of Intimidate, allowing the Barbarian to choose between gaining aggro and debuffing enemies' defences, or reducing aggro and debuffing enemies' attacks (or vice versa).

    A lot of the sort of stuff that's covered by existing enhancements, but cooking more of it in to the basic package and consolidating the idea of the Barbarian as the tough guy who gets things done by big numbers and sheer physical presence.

    That said, I'm not as unhappy with my present Barbarian life as I was prepared to be owing to the class's general reputation.

    To reiterate, however, the Ravager capstone is terrible. Terrible. A single target move with a DC too low to matter that takes up a massively valuable daily Rage use? For that cost it shouldn't allow a save at all, like Power Word: Kill... and even then I'd probably just've had a simple Strength increase instead. Also, Fury? A central tree mechanic that's rendered redundant by equipping a "deadly" item, which you will certainly do? Not too pleased with that.

  18. #38
    Community Member Saravis's Avatar
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    Capstones comparable to evasion? I think they threw that goal out the window.
    The Eldritch Knight capstone is a joke. A 30 second 10% damage and +25 spellpower action boost that can only be used every two minutes and +2 to casting stat. The damage boost is less than half of what you can get on a regular action boost and most EKs aren't going to be casting focused.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by axel15810 View Post
    I would love to see the barb and kensei capstones instead get some kind of additional big DPS bump (maybe CON as well for barbs). That way the best melee DPS in the game would come from pure melee builds, as I think would make sense. You'd then have to choose between DPS (pure) or survivability (splash). Right now the extra DPS from pure isn't there, no it makes no sense not to splash.

    Wait a sec, why on earth should pure class builds be highest dps in game? That doesnt make sense at all to me.

    Should they be comparable dps to a well designed multiclass build? Sure. But if innovative multiclassing cant give advantages over a simplistic pure build they may as well not give the option of multiclassing at all.

    The fact you chose dps as the angle where a pure class should have the advantage is telling in itself. Why do you think dps and not survivability should be the reward for pure melee?

    As far as the op, wether evasion is stronger than capstones is entirely dependant on build. However, 2 monk gives a lot more than evasion, stances, unarmed, centered abilities, 2 feats(even 2 toughness if ya want). I use monk splashes on many builds where evasion is of no concern whatsoever.

  20. #40
    Community Member Lonnbeimnech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01000010 View Post
    Wait a sec, why on earth should pure class builds be highest dps in game? That doesnt make sense at all to me.

    Should they be comparable dps to a well designed multiclass build? Sure. But if innovative multiclassing cant give advantages over a simplistic pure build they may as well not give the option of multiclassing at all.

    The fact you chose dps as the angle where a pure class should have the advantage is telling in itself. Why do you think dps and not survivability should be the reward for pure melee?

    As far as the op, wether evasion is stronger than capstones is entirely dependant on build. However, 2 monk gives a lot more than evasion, stances, unarmed, centered abilities, 2 feats(even 2 toughness if ya want). I use monk splashes on many builds where evasion is of no concern whatsoever.
    Cuz a guy that spent his entire life going nuts and smashing things with a big ax (20 barb) should be able to go nuts and smash things with a big axe better than a guy that spent some of his life going nuts and smashing things with an axe, but also spent some time learning archery and some time picking locks and picking pockets (12 barb/6 ranger/2 rogue) for example.

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