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  1. #21
    Community Member Ellihor's Avatar
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    I really dont belive this is going to work because if turbine replies to this "server representative" it will be automatically recognizing him and giving him a lot of voice power over the costumers and in forums, creating an entity that isnt their peon. I dont think they are ever going to let it happens.
    Last edited by Ellihor; 10-31-2013 at 06:45 PM.

  2. #22

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    Cap- I really like this idea, and I appreciate someone finally coming up with a constructive plan to give feedback to the developers. I hope this idea comes into play, and if it does I would be more than happy to represent The Hand of Death.

    Yellowfinger

  3. #23
    Community Member Th3ThirdFall3n's Avatar
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    Red face

    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    Having perused your suggestion I have a few issues:

    1. Unions are Bad Mmkay!

    2. So basically any guild that doesn't join doesn't get a say - Lovely - NOT!

    3. 95% of the people in the big guilds who do join WON'T get a Say - One Person per guild = Rofl!

    4. As someone who regularly posts on these forums and who does attempt to make constructive suggestions wherever possible AND as someone who plays this game very differently to yourself I will continue to do things my own way thank you very much. {Not having a go at you personally or your gaming preferences - Just saying that those preferences should NOT be given preference over other people's.}.

    5. Oh and Unions are and always have been a bad idea that gives far too much power to a minority - Completely the Opposite of what they were designed to do btw!

    I was thinking more about Guilds such as ATCZ, Templar and Silver Legion than the likes of Divach Ruin.

    I had serious issues with one guild a while ago PRE their opening up of Guild Rectuitment {Since when EVERY SINGLE person from that Guild I've run with has been great!}.
    Strangely enough Cannithtrade which I know you also follow is famously anti that guild for the very reasons that I now have no issues with them.

    So I know for a fact that the people you're likely to get as representatives will not be truly representative of the Guild as a whole.

    *Snip*
    *Snip*
    *Snip*
    So yea, most of that was just a bunch of cry-baby stuff. IMO ideas like this are always good, ASSUMING they work as planned. I mean HEY, if I don't PERSONALLY have to get off my pike to go rag on Turbine about something they're doing wrong, then I'm doing something right.

    With that said I'd like to bring attention to that little thing there: ATCZ doesn't actually have A LOT of people. If you've ever been into our mumble we've got idk... 11 INDIVIDUALS MAX that are from our guild who play actively and join in mumble, and only about a couple who don't use the mumble. We've got a secret door full of toons which you're more than welcome to try and detect for yourself, but not a very large amount of PEOPLE. So I wouldn't count Zerg Tribe among the *high volume* guilds. Not anything like Divach(eww) and MUCH LESS so like Templawl(even more eww. Thanks to Vyrn for helping me correct that spelling btw. And though he's no longer a Temp, the stench is strong in him).

    ALSO most, if not all, of Zerg Tribe tends to agree on relatively every aspect of the game we find import in forming an opinion about. Worthy examples include, but are not limited to: People who are dumb, Xp pieces are Zergbites(yea, there's a cereal), DDO is Mario Kart and Lotusfly is Yoshi, and Mabar's Wand of Detect Secret Horse. SOOOOOO, I wouldn't see anything wrong with the idea in reference to our guild considering that no one's really gonna whine about, "Wahh wahh, my voice is not being heard." Hell we might even bring back Heavyarms to be our Rep on that(might wanna contact Gordy for details on that lol).

    Finally: I loved the Cannithtrade reference xD Really bro, Cannithtrade lost it's value as a source of ANYTHING other than trolling ages ago, and all those who STILL do stuff like trade and talk about DDO in any credible sense have since moved on to better avenues of communication or simply left the channel, but they altogether ignore it for the most part even if they do still have it.

    Lastly, I will be Completionist next life. Just saying

    +1 Caprimancer
    The Photomancer, Zerg Tribe's resident piking pirate.
    (Tell): Abbinormal tells you, 'thank you for opening my eyes to what people think of teamwork, for bringing to the light what this game really is, have it all you want, as soon as i log out, I am removing this garbage from my computer'

  4. #24
    Uber Completionist Capricorpus's Avatar
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    Based on responses that I've gotten both on the forums and in game, the list of guilds that are on board to one extent or another seems to be:

    - Clan Battlehammer
    - Ordo Draconis
    - Coup de Grace
    - The Hand of Death
    - Fortitude
    - A Tribe Called Zerg

    I'm still awaiting responses from a couple people, and I'll continue reaching out to some mainstream guilds tomorrow.

    If enough people are on board, I plan on starting to reach out to the wider server group and beginning to formulate a process of implementation over the weekend.


    Grats in advance, Photo, even though I'll probably say it again later. Yay! :P
    Cap, Ascendance, Cannith
    Capricorpus / Capiorcorpus

  5. #25
    Community Member Jeromio's Avatar
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    Personally I think that this sounds like a good idea.

    I think if there's going to be a 1 person per guild thing, issues up for vote should first be described beforehand so the guild representative could bring it up within guild for discussion and find out about the members' opinion and act upon that during the "union" discussions and voting.

    I'm not yet sure if the Spellbinders supports this. I've just brought it up for internal discussion, and will let you know the outcome of this later on.
    Proud officer of Spellbinders: http://spellbinders.shivtr.com/
    Lyrandar(EU)->Devourer(EU)->Cannith

  6. #26
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capricorpus View Post
    Based on responses that I've gotten both on the forums and in game, the list of guilds that are on board to one extent or another seems to be:

    - Clan Battlehammer
    - Ordo Draconis
    - Coup de Grace
    - The Hand of Death
    - Fortitude
    - A Tribe Called Zerg
    So apart from one guild I've never heard of there's no surprises here then.

    This ^ is exactly why I personally will be having absolutely nothing to do with this idea.

    Anything Zerg is involved in is an instant no anyway.

  7. #27
    Community Member Jeromio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    So apart from one guild I've never heard of there's no surprises here then.

    This ^ is exactly why I personally will be having absolutely nothing to do with this idea.

    Anything Zerg is involved in is an instant no anyway.
    Analogy: a country would refuse to be a UN member because countries like North-Korea, Iran etc are members. Seems a bit silly to me.
    Note: I don't mean to indicate anything bad about ATCZ; I've got no personal bad experience with any of their members.

    If you actively refuse to be part of a decision making process, it means that you fully accept the results of such a process without being able to affect it in any way. It also means that what you consider to be "bad guys" might have an impact on your future gaming experience without you being able to change it in any way.
    Proud officer of Spellbinders: http://spellbinders.shivtr.com/
    Lyrandar(EU)->Devourer(EU)->Cannith

  8. #28
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeromio View Post
    Analogy: a country would refuse to be a UN member because countries like North-Korea, Iran etc are members. Seems a bit silly to me.
    Note: I don't mean to indicate anything bad about ATCZ; I've got no personal bad experience with any of their members.

    If you actively refuse to be part of a decision making process, it means that you fully accept the results of such a process without being able to affect it in any way. It also means that what you consider to be "bad guys" might have an impact on your future gaming experience without you being able to change it in any way.
    A more realistic analogy would be the Soviet Union for ATCZ.

    False is N. Korea

    Fortitude are The People's Republic {Tianenmen Square says otherwise} of China

    And I'm S. Korea!


    And yes I have figured out why I couldn't recall who Coup de Grace were {Heya False}.


    I've got your new name for this "Union" Capri - Elitist Bullies are Us!


    Oh and yes Templar WERE the Guild I used to avoid like the Plague - It seems they've managed to weed out all the Elitists {haven't seen South Park around for a while} and those problems have gone away.

    I laugh every time I see Templar attacked in Cannithtrade as it just lets me know who to add to my Blacklist - Frankly Opening up Membership to the masses turned Templar from a Guild I wouldn't go anywhere near to one I'll take in any Pug.


    Congratz Darcat - You're no longer the most hated person on Cannith.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    A more realistic analogy would be the Soviet Union for ATCZ.

    False is N. Korea

    Fortitude are The People's Republic {Tianenmen Square says otherwise} of China

    And I'm . . .
    The Ukraine. DDO is game to you? How 'bout I take your guild union and smash?

    ftfy.

  10. #30
    Uber Completionist Capricorpus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeromio View Post
    Personally I think that this sounds like a good idea.

    I think if there's going to be a 1 person per guild thing, issues up for vote should first be described beforehand so the guild representative could bring it up within guild for discussion and find out about the members' opinion and act upon that during the "union" discussions and voting.

    I'm not yet sure if the Spellbinders supports this. I've just brought it up for internal discussion, and will let you know the outcome of this later on..
    Yes, the plan is to have the topics up for discussion available for at least a little while before voting to give time for just that. Not much of a point of someone being a guild representative if he/she can't discuss it with the people being represented.

    Discussion is great, feel free to let me know whenever you folks have reached a decision.

    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    So apart from one guild I've never heard of there's no surprises here then.

    This ^ is exactly why I personally will be having absolutely nothing to do with this idea.

    Anything Zerg is involved in is an instant no anyway.
    Considering you've been saying you aren't interested from your very first post, I'm not sure what new information you're giving us be reiterating your point.

    With all respect, if you're incapable of having a mature conversation with people who you may or may not be incredibly friendly with, this group really isn't for you. Please take your bashing of individual guilds elsewhere, as it really isn't productively contributing to the conversation. Thanks!
    Cap, Ascendance, Cannith
    Capricorpus / Capiorcorpus

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    A more realistic analogy would be the Soviet Union for ATCZ.

    False is N. Korea

    Fortitude are The People's Republic {Tianenmen Square says otherwise} of China

    And I'm S. Korea!


    And yes I have figured out why I couldn't recall who Coup de Grace were {Heya False}.


    I've got your new name for this "Union" Capri - Elitist Bullies are Us!


    Oh and yes Templar WERE the Guild I used to avoid like the Plague - It seems they've managed to weed out all the Elitists {haven't seen South Park around for a while} and those problems have gone away.

    I laugh every time I see Templar attacked in Cannithtrade as it just lets me know who to add to my Blacklist - Frankly Opening up Membership to the masses turned Templar from a Guild I wouldn't go anywhere near to one I'll take in any Pug.


    Congratz Darcat - You're no longer the most hated person on Cannith.
    Git off mah lawn!

    If, If's and But's was Candies and Nuts, we'd all have a Merry Christmas.

  12. #32
    The Hatchery stoerm's Avatar
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    I appreciate the sentiment but there's a point I want to make.

    It's a stated goal by Turbine to cater to every kind of player. That means casual, hard core, f2p, big spender, raider, TR grinder, role player, newbie, vet, permadeath. Guilded, non-guilded. Forum-active, lurker.

    That stated goal is in direct conflict with majority rule (which is what you suggest), even if the union had perfect representation of the entire server and not just guilded players who are also forum active.

    Turbine has two employees whose job it is to gather opinions from the forums and in game, and represent those to the devs.

    P.S. For those issues that have universal player support, this might be a good idea.

    P.P.S. The more I think about it, the better this idea is. It's good to have a voice, just don't claim to represent more than you actually do, i.e. the specific guilds that are members and consent to giving their voice to the body. Maybe call it something else.

    P.P.P.S. FranOhmsford: I'm looking forward to seeing you set up a competing body to carry the voice of the downtrodden casual playerbase, although I know from experience you are actually not a casual in the clueless noob sense. Can't think of a better adjective.

    4P.S. and totally OT: Unions like everything else have good and bad sides. Without them working people's lives would be much more like how it was during the industrial revolution in Europe or how it is in the 3rd world today. Think of child labour, long and dangerous working days, slave wages.
    Last edited by stoerm; 11-01-2013 at 03:41 PM. Reason: Thought more about it

  13. #33
    Uber Completionist Capricorpus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stoerm View Post
    ... It's good to have a voice, just don't claim to represent more than you actually do, i.e. the specific guilds that are members and consent to giving their voice to the body. Maybe call it something else.....
    Like I've said a number of times in this thread, the intention isn't to claim to be the only/most important opinion.

    Consolidating opinions and ideas into one well-stated thought might be easier for the developers to digest than hundreds of disparate individual thoughts, may of which might be misguided, confrontational, or based on inaccurate information.

    As far as representing only people on the forums goes, I've been (and will continue to be) reaching out to people in the game, many of whom aren't active on the forums, with the goal of overcoming that issue.
    Cap, Ascendance, Cannith
    Capricorpus / Capiorcorpus

  14. #34
    The Hatchery stoerm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capricorpus View Post
    misguided, confrontational, or based on inaccurate information.
    Reducing that element is a worthy goal all in itself.

    I'd just like to say I admire your courage, this looks like a full time job to me. Hopefully you get to keep your sanity.

  15. #35
    Uber Completionist Capricorpus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stoerm View Post
    Reducing that element is a worthy goal all in itself.

    I'd just like to say I admire your courage, this looks like a full time job to me. Hopefully you get to keep your sanity.
    Aye, it's already slightly frustrating. Even people who read the forums generally don't bother looking at specific server sub-forums, since not much typically goes on here.

    So far, I've gotten primarily positive vibes from people I've spoken to in the game itself, although a lot of people have said (logically so) that they'd like to talk to their guild/guild leaders before fully getting on board.

    I think one of the misconceptions people reading this thread might have is that the sole purpose of this "Union" would be to tell developers what we, a (hopefully large) segment of the Cannith population want. This is, obviously, far from being the case. One of the primary goals I had in mind was the ability to simply ask questions, one on one, to the developers and get an immediate, clear answer.

    Unfortunately, one of the primary issues I'm having is hunting people down to get a clear response. As I mentioned earlier, this forum gets little exposure, so I've got to talk to people individually if I want them to know about this. Hopefully, though, people who support this idea will attempt to help me spread it, and we can try to implement a system that would be mutually beneficial for both the players and the developers themselves!
    Cap, Ascendance, Cannith
    Capricorpus / Capiorcorpus

  16. #36
    Community Member Moltier's Avatar
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    Hi Capri!

    People dont just complain after a (usually un)finished product, but before. They complain when its just planned, and say whats the problem. They complain before their hard work is done, but the dev's managers often dont listen at all. Sometimes they do, when the rage is so high, the forum blows.

    Anyway, if someone from turbine posts here and say they are in, our guild is in as well.
    Cannith
    Csodaszarvas
    Valyria - Hulkie - Sillymilly - Killberry - Silvyanna - Walour - Corgak - Thalrian-1

  17. #37
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    I'm in.

    There are some details on your post that I disagree with, but the idea of actually sitting down and talking about stuff is a good one.

    How is this being set up? A mailing list, maybe?
    Kmnh * Kmn * Kmm * Knn * Knm

    Leader of Templar

  18. #38
    Uber Completionist Capricorpus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moltier View Post
    ....Anyway, if someone from turbine posts here and say they are in, our guild is in as well.
    As you undoubtedly realize, the odds of Turbine posting here before any system is formed are slim.

    My plan is to implement some sort of system to do what I outlined in the initial post, and then contact Turbine to attempt to work out a way we could be able to talk directly to them semi-regularly. Ideally, they'll understand that the purpose of this isn't to complain, but to move forward with communication channels that will be mutually beneficial!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kmnh View Post
    I'm in.

    There are some details on your post that I disagree with, but the idea of actually sitting down and talking about stuff is a good one.

    How is this being set up? A mailing list, maybe?
    My initial post was meant as an idea in a pretty abstract sense, the actual implementation will definitely be very much based on feedback I receive from the people interested in participating, and I'm sure a lot will be changed.

    Like I said above, the implementation isn't set in stone yet, but a mailing list sounds like a good way to avoid availability issues.

    My current vision for the system, assuming Turbine gets on board, is as follows:
    1) Any member of the group can send an email, forum PM, or in-game letter to the chairman of the group, currently me, detailing an issue and/or question they want to lay on the table
    2) The most popular issues are sent out as an email to all of the members of the group, asking for their opinions/votes
    3) A meeting to discuss issues is arranged at a time that hopefully works for a lot of people, although anybody unable to attend would still get to vote via email without participating in the discussion. The discussion would probably be held via an in-game chat channel, so people can continue whatever they're currently doing if they just want to read without having much to say on the subject.
    4) An issue would merit an official stance based on gaining the votes of a significant majority of the group members. The disagreeing minority would hopefully, in the interest of maintaining a working system, be willing to accept the official stance.
    5) Once the votes have been tallied up, Turbine will be contacted in what I, in my idealized system, envision as a short weekly (or every other week) discussion. Our official position will be mentioned, and the Turbine representative will hopefully answer a couple popular questions and explain their stance on the subject. Hopefully, they'd then take our opinion (which would hopefully represent a decent chunk of the server) into consideration when implementing changes.
    6) The boiled down version of the discussion will then be posted (probably not the discussion itself, in the interest of stopping the Turbine representative for feeling too much of a need to weigh his/her words carefully) in text format either on these forums or on an independent blog, so it'll be accessible to anyone who's interested.

    Like I said, this is a very basic (and idealized) idea, so any ideas/suggestions are more than welcomed!


    Anyways, thanks to both of you for expressing your interest!
    Cap, Ascendance, Cannith
    Capricorpus / Capiorcorpus

  19. #39
    Community Member AestorTheKnight's Avatar
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    Its a nice idea

    Though sadly, not one I think would necessarily work that well with the diversity of oppinion's present among tbe Cannith community.

    But I'd be happy to be proven wrong about that!
    So in everything, do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

    Cannith: Arqa - Celduin - Gnossos - and others.

  20. #40
    Uber Completionist Capricorpus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AestorTheKnight View Post
    Its a nice idea

    Though sadly, not one I think would necessarily work that well with the diversity of oppinion's present among tbe Cannith community.

    But I'd be happy to be proven wrong about that!

    Aye, there's definitely going to be some issues that nobody really agrees on. I'm hoping, however, that there's enough agreement to make the endeavor worthwhile.

    I think the most difficult element is going to be contacting and convincing The Powers That Be. I'm really hopeful that they'll understand the desire for direct communication as a useful tool (which I truly believe it could be) instead of a new method of getting complaints across.
    Cap, Ascendance, Cannith
    Capricorpus / Capiorcorpus

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