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  1. #1
    Community Member Gabrion's Avatar
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    Default Horc Monkcher concept, help appreciated

    So up front...started playing back in 2006, been in and out a few times since then, but recently haven't played for a year and a half or two. Came back and found a lot of interesting changes and want to try some out.

    One character I have is an elf bard/ranger split. Long, long ago (I think she was created in 2007 or so) the idea was to bring bard buffs to the party, then to serve the secondary role as a ranged status debuffer, CCer, etc., by carrying crursespewing/destruction/paralyzing/etc. (trust me, they were all good at one time).

    She was never my "main" and I just started playing her lately for the sake of picking up a mabar +5 tome. So I had to redo enhancements, and as a result, I discovered that archery itself isn't nearly as gimped as it used to be. I really dig the new arcane archer for instance, and as I stared digging into some other archer related things (monks, DWS), I found even more I like. So I have been reading a lot to try to understand the monkcher concept (and I think I do have an ok understanding), but I have some outstanding questions.

    ___________

    1) Why not T5 DWS over AA?
    Most of the build advice I've come across really emphasizes T5 AA enhancements. Call me crazy, but it seems like Heavy Draw, Head Shot, and Improved Archer's Focus (especially the first two) outstrip Moon Bow, Arrow of Slaying, and Runebow. Crazy talk?

    2) Is Half Orc an ok race choice?
    Personally it seems pretty good. A strength bonus without penalties to important stats, more STR enhancements (plus some bonus STR if injured, though that isn't a good thing to plan around), and a line that increases power attack, which works with Heavy Draw.

    3) Speaking of Improved Power attack...when used with Heavy Draw, does each point in the Orc enhancement increase dmg by 2, as it would for two-handed weapons?

    4) How do I get 10 Thousand Stars. Sorry, this must be the simplest of my questions, but the DDO wiki seems jacked up in this regard. It says 10K stars is still linked to an enhancement line, but some of the builds I've been reading seem to indicate it's a monk feat (though again, it doesn't show up on the wiki as a martial arts feat). Either way, my understanding is that I need 6 monk levels...I at least have that right?

    5) Same question about Master of Forms. I can either take full 12 monk levels OR just 6 and take it as a feat?
    I personally would really like Master Earth stance for the built in crit multiplier, but is it really necessary?

    6) Do Manyshot/10K Stars fire multiple projectiles when special ranged attacks are made (Arrow of Slaying or Head Shot for instance), or only with regular auto-attacks?

    7) How to get enough Ki?
    If I understand correctly, passive Ki regeneration is per six seconds, so the minimum to earn 20 Ki for 10K stars in during the 1 minute cooldown is +2 passive. Assuming I'm correct about that, it seems like an item with +1 Ki regen and one enhancement (Kensei Ascetic Training, Henshin Contemplation, or GMoF Enlightenment twisted in at Epic levels) should do the trick. I'll say that, while I understand switching to Water Stance between combat and/or sneaking with Stealthy from Ninja are options, I don't like them as much.

    ______________

    So those are the outstanding questions I have right now. Unless I get some feedback explaining that it's really dumb, I'm considering a Half Orc 6 Monk/6 Ranger/??. If I'm not an elf, those investments in monk and ranger are necessary, but it honestly seems like there are a ton of viable options to flesh it out.

  2. #2
    Community Member Arkadios's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabrion View Post
    So up front...started playing back in 2006, been in and out a few times since then, but recently haven't played for a year and a half or two. Came back and found a lot of interesting changes and want to try some out.

    One character I have is an elf bard/ranger split. Long, long ago (I think she was created in 2007 or so) the idea was to bring bard buffs to the party, then to serve the secondary role as a ranged status debuffer, CCer, etc., by carrying crursespewing/destruction/paralyzing/etc. (trust me, they were all good at one time).

    She was never my "main" and I just started playing her lately for the sake of picking up a mabar +5 tome. So I had to redo enhancements, and as a result, I discovered that archery itself isn't nearly as gimped as it used to be. I really dig the new arcane archer for instance, and as I stared digging into some other archer related things (monks, DWS), I found even more I like. So I have been reading a lot to try to understand the monkcher concept (and I think I do have an ok understanding), but I have some outstanding questions.

    ___________

    1) Why not T5 DWS over AA?
    Most of the build advice I've come across really emphasizes T5 AA enhancements. Call me crazy, but it seems like Heavy Draw, Head Shot, and Improved Archer's Focus (especially the first two) outstrip Moon Bow, Arrow of Slaying, and Runebow. Crazy talk?

    For my monkcher I'm doing 50%melee/50%ranged so tier 5 ninja spy works best for me, I believe the idea behind the tier 5 aa is that arrow of slaying+manyshot+furyshot (fotw ED) = hella high crits/burst dps. I don't pretend to know the numbers but tier 5 DWS may do more sustained damage if you're planning on ranging all the time.

    2) Is Half Orc an ok race choice?
    Personally it seems pretty good. A strength bonus without penalties to important stats, more STR enhancements (plus some bonus STR if injured, though that isn't a good thing to plan around), and a line that increases power attack, which works with Heavy Draw.
    I don't see why Half Orc wouldn't work however most builds will follow either human for extra feat/skill point, half-elf for rogue dilly SA or Elf for the +4to hit/ranged enhancements.

    3) Speaking of Improved Power attack...when used with Heavy Draw, does each point in the Orc enhancement increase dmg by 2, as it would for two-handed weapons?
    I don't know about this one


    4) How do I get 10 Thousand Stars. Sorry, this must be the simplest of my questions, but the DDO wiki seems jacked up in this regard. It says 10K stars is still linked to an enhancement line, but some of the builds I've been reading seem to indicate it's a monk feat (though again, it doesn't show up on the wiki as a martial arts feat). Either way, my understanding is that I need 6 monk levels...I at least have that right?
    10k stars is a monk bonus feat you can take at monk level 6, however I belive (but haven't tested myself) you can take as a normal feat too as long as you have 6 monk levels, for 10k stars you have to make sure wis is your highest stat as the amount of arrows you fire is based of your wisdom (40+ is about the least you'd want to make 10k stars useful)

    5) Same question about Master of Forms. I can either take full 12 monk levels OR just 6 and take it as a feat?
    I personally would really like Master Earth stance for the built in crit multiplier, but is it really necessary?
    You get Adept of forms for free at monk 6, master of forms at monk 12 and grandmaster of forms at monk 18 however you can pick them up as normal feats (but NOT monk bonus feats) as long as you have at least 1 monk level (feats still require character levels 6,12 and 18.

    6) Do Manyshot/10K Stars fire multiple projectiles when special ranged attacks are made (Arrow of Slaying or Head Shot for instance), or only with regular auto-attacks?
    It'll fire multiple slaying arrows etc.

    7) How to get enough Ki?
    If I understand correctly, passive Ki regeneration is per six seconds, so the minimum to earn 20 Ki for 10K stars in during the 1 minute cooldown is +2 passive. Assuming I'm correct about that, it seems like an item with +1 Ki regen and one enhancement (Kensei Ascetic Training, Henshin Contemplation, or GMoF Enlightenment twisted in at Epic levels) should do the trick. I'll say that, while I understand switching to Water Stance between combat and/or sneaking with Stealthy from Ninja are options, I don't like them as much.
    Correct if you plan on only using a bow, personally I'll do 10kstars>manyshot>10kstars> then melee enough that either 10k or manyshot is off timer picking up my ki from that

    ______________

    So those are the outstanding questions I have right now. Unless I get some feedback explaining that it's really dumb, I'm considering a Half Orc 6 Monk/6 Ranger/??. If I'm not an elf, those investments in monk and ranger are necessary, but it honestly seems like there are a ton of viable options to flesh it out.
    You might want to consider 8 fighter levels as the last 8 but with a base of 6rgr/6mnk there's a lot of options for multiclassing
    Answers in red.
    Quote Originally Posted by katz View Post
    wow. i actually made it to someone's sig! O.o


    yay!

  3. #3
    Community Member Gabrion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkadios View Post
    Answers in red.
    Thanks, that answered a lot of my questions. I guess the one outstanding one is how exactly improved power attack stacks with Heavy Draw. If anyone knows, please pipe up.

    And ya, I'm aware that the 6 Monk/6 Ranger base leaves a lot of options. Some I've considered:

    6 Monk/6 Ranger/8 Fighter (like you suggested)
    I see this as offering the most feats, making it much easier to meet prereqs for OC while also fleshing out melee options to supplement bow use (GTWF and Improved Crit at least). It also gets access to some kensai enhancements, though I imagine between 16 points on Orc, 36 (at least) on DWS, and whatever is possible in AA, there won't be a lot of room to pick up enhancements from whatever the third class is.

    12 Monk/6 Ranger/2 Fighter
    Similar to the above, but with more monk investment it gets Improved Evasion, Master of Forms without a feat, and some other goodies. Fewer feats from fighter, but shouldn't be a big deal.

    12 Monk/6 Ranger/2 Pally or FvS

    This is the Divine Might option, which is pretty interesting. It might require race other than Horc though since the CHA penalty, plust the fact that most build points need to be spent in WIS/STR/DEX, with leftover going into CON, make it harder to get a respectable CHA. I guess even starting with a 6 it's possible to get somewhere from +6 to +10 CHA mod, which is a respectable addition to STR. Of course the Pally version gets that added to saves, while the FvS gets a nice mana pool and access to Empower Heal (I've heard this is good with a thing called cocoon, though obviously haven't been in epic levels yet).

    10 Monk/6 Ranger/4 Pally
    I list this one separately because I've thought about it a fair bit and would almost certainly go human in this case (probably spending minimal points in the racial enhancements). It still gives Improved Evasion from monk, but obviously requires picking up Master of Forms Feat. The big difference here would be actually trying to dedicate a chunk of enhancement points to KotC - at least deep enough to pick up Divine Sacrifice. Assuming this works with ranged attacks (I don't see a limitation listed), Divine Sacrifice attacks would be at x6 crit multiplier in heroic levels with a bow of sinew and x7 with OC. Plus 4 lvls Paladin gives access to emp heal (haha I still don't know if this is really good, but I see it mentioned a lot). This seems to be the most stat intensive since it needs big starting STR for OC, relatively high DEX for IPS, needs to reach 42+ WIS for 10K Stars, and wants as high of CHA as possible for +saves and Divine Might.

    Actually I've probably thought of another dozen or so class splits that could work, but these are some of the top contenders in my mind right now.

  4. #4
    Community Member Gabrion's Avatar
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    Ya turns out my idea of picking up divine sacrifice with Paladin doesn't work so well. I thought from the wording that divine sacrifice applied a sort of buff to your next attack, whatever that may be (which would make it nice to use before high dmg abilities like arrow of slaying etc). Turns out, it's just an attack itself, and more importantly, melee only. I guess pally 4 still picks up turn undead for divine power (saving an epic twist) and access to emp heal, but FvS or Cleric gets you divine power with less investment.

  5. #5
    Community Member Arkadios's Avatar
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    Yeah I currently have a 12monk/6ranger/2fighter levelling following the Zendark build, a toon I plan to TR into a 8fighter/6ranger/6monk But I personally like all those level splits, the 2 pally option looks really nice for DM (I know the twist is annoying but it's still kinda nice) so does 2clr (I'd go 2 clr over 2 fvs purely for access to radiant servant wand&scroll mastery) + empower healing.

    What it all boils down to is do you want more versatility (12mnk/6rgr/2ftr), more dps(8ftr/6mnk/6rgr), higher saves(12mnk/6rgr/2pally) or better healing(12mnk/6rgr/2clr).

    What you have to watch out for on the pally and clr(or fvs) splash is your feats as you'll get less than you will want so you'll have to be really picky when choosing them.
    Quote Originally Posted by katz View Post
    wow. i actually made it to someone's sig! O.o


    yay!

  6. #6
    Community Member BinyaminTsadik's Avatar
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    There are a few main things you should know when making a monkcher

    1. Dex for damage from NinjaSpy II works and so does the added poison from the tree
    2. Wisdom increases the DPS from 10k stars
    (the cooldown between 10ks is 30 seconds and its duration is 30 seconds and the CD between many shot is 60 seconds and its duration is only 20 seconds, so 10ks will be on way more making wisdom all the better)
    You will want 40-50 wisdom minimum
    Your fighting pattern will look like this
    10ks, manyshot, 10ks, melee for 30 seconds (to recharge ki), repeat

    3. Tier 3 earth stance adds +1 to the crit multiplier and can be taken as a feat now, so 12 monk is no longer required for the build.


    also another build to consider is 11 ranger / 9 monk which includes all of the free twf and ranged feats that a ranger has to offer and improved evasion from the monk.

    This may be the best option for a Horc because you can almost dump dex making improved evasion all the better and still get the feats you need from the ranger without the dex requirement. 10ks also no longer requires Dex to get.
    This way you can get to 23 (base) strength and put all of the rest into wisdom with ease.

    Another build is 6 monk / 2 ranger / 12 fighter for helves and elves (for access to AA)
    Last edited by BinyaminTsadik; 11-05-2013 at 05:13 AM.
    Instead of complaining that there are no healers, go roll one...

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by BinyaminTsadik View Post

    This may be the best option for a Horc because you can almost dump dex making improved evasion all the better and still get the feats you need from the ranger without the dex requirement.
    I have a HO 8ftr / 6mnk / 6rng. It works well, but be sure to have 19 dex for improved precision (when i solo, this feat basically multiply my dps by 4). I picked HO for roleplay reason, but the math doesn't agree.
    For enhancements, I use tier 5 from AA and core 3 + dmg boost from sniper.

  8. #8
    Community Member BinyaminTsadik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glouky View Post
    I have a HO 8ftr / 6mnk / 6rng. It works well, but be sure to have 19 dex for improved precision (when i solo, this feat basically multiply my dps by 4). I picked HO for roleplay reason, but the math doesn't agree.
    For enhancements, I use tier 5 from AA and core 3 + dmg boost from sniper.
    11 ranger / 9 monk will get you improved precision for free without the dex requirement.
    Instead of complaining that there are no healers, go roll one...

  9. #9
    Community Member Gabrion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BinyaminTsadik View Post
    There are a few main things you should know when making a monkcher

    1. Dex for damage from NinjaSpy II works and so does the added poison from the tree
    2. Wisdom increases the DPS from 10k stars
    (the cooldown between 10ks is 30 seconds and its duration is 30 seconds and the CD between many shot is 60 seconds and its duration is only 20 seconds, so 10ks will be on way more making wisdom all the better)
    You will want 40-50 wisdom minimum
    Your fighting pattern will look like this
    10ks, manyshot, 10ks, melee for 30 seconds (to recharge ki), repeat

    3. Tier 3 earth stance adds +1 to the crit multiplier and can be taken as a feat now, so 12 monk is no longer required for the build.


    also another build to consider is 11 ranger / 9 monk which includes all of the free twf and ranged feats that a ranger has to offer and improved evasion from the monk.

    This may be the best option for a Horc because you can almost dump dex making improved evasion all the better and still get the feats you need from the ranger without the dex requirement. 10ks also no longer requires Dex to get.
    This way you can get to 23 (base) strength and put all of the rest into wisdom with ease.

    Another build is 6 monk / 2 ranger / 12 fighter for helves and elves (for access to AA)
    Thanks. From researching monkchers (since this would be my first) I picked up a lot of this information already, but another voice echoing it is still appreciated.

    I had not, however, considered your idea of 11 Ranger/9 Monk. It seems very viable for exactly the reasons you said...Imp Evasion is still picked up from monk, while ranger gives IPS without the DEX requirement. At first glance it seems counter intuitive to have a) have a sub standard DEX on an evasion toon and b) go 11 levels deep in a class knowing core enhancements break at 12. But, again as you said, improved evasion actually serves as an (albeit imperfect) solution for low dex (whereas it would be a worse idea on a character with only evasion). On core enhancements, fortunately (or unfortunately), neither AA or DWS offer great enhancements at 12, so that isn't a big problem IMO.

    I'm not sure this is the route I'll go (still very tempted by the Pally, FvS, or Cleric Splash for Divine Might), but it is certainly nice to have another viable looking option. Also, if I continue to enjoy playing an archer, this conveniently gives a Ranger past life if I TR.

    Last thing. Taking another look at my earlier comments about T5 DWS and AA, I think I see where I was misguided. I didn't understand Head Shot had such a long CD compared to Arrow of Slaying. Plus in a FotW build, it seems redundant since you can reach near auto-crit anyway. Arrow of Slaying synergizes with knowing your next attack will be a crit (and do multiplied dmg), while Head Shot does not. I'm still intrigued by Heavy Draw (specifically how it gets improved by improved power attack), but I can't see that being worth what AA gives.

    Thanks again for the replies.

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