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  1. #121
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post
    Jeez, it's a shame our new favorite word "paladin" couldn't be used in this context to try to bully someone out of disagreeing. I guess "troll" had to do.
    "Troll" is the greatest word in the English Language.

  2. #122
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skavenaps View Post
    pretty sad you are arguing with a troll and you are the one that troll.

    2 levels of monk give evasion, +2 a stat via stances, 2 feats and running speed, wisdom to AC..

    So no.. Im pretty sure that not near come close to paladin, druid, fvs.. or anyone.

    Plus, Monk splash allow you to buy feats to unlock +1 crit multi. What special feats open Rogue 2? Fight 2? or Pal 2?
    2 levels of Rogue gives Evasion and it gives Spot, Search and Disable Device as class-skills. With the recent nerf to True Seeing and Detect Secret Doors spells, that's worth more than it used to be. UMD as a class skill = any scroll ever printed is your play thing.

    Druid, FvS, Wizard, Sorc and Cleric all give level 1 spells, infinite spell points (Magical training), ability to use scrolls

    2 levels of Paladin gives a big boost to saving throws (At least +6 if you put even a tiny investment into Cha) as well as the Paladin aura and the ability to avoid parties at the Playboy mansion. Yeah, a Paladin splash generally sucks.

    2 Ranger levels gives TWF, Bow Strength, Favored Enemy, Wild Empathy, Rapid Shot and +2 BAB compared to the Monk's +1 BAB.

    MOST classes give some really nifty benefits with a 2 level splash. Monk happens to give benefits that have good synergy with other melee classes and Evasion is just plain AWESOME because, well... it's Evasion. That doesn't mean that it's overpowered. It just means that the capstone of most pure classes just aren't worth the opportunity cost of whatever splash you give up to get that capstone.
    (Except Sorcerer, of course. Warforged Sorcerers *NEED* to get the Sorcerer capstone so that they can make themselves immune to Reconstruct.)
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  3. #123
    Community Member Grimlock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post
    Alignment restrictions never really made sense to me in PnP or DDO. I guess a character that plays instruments automatically shouldn't be able to follow or respect the law? Or a character that plays instruments shouldn't be able to know kung fu?

    The books and the world that they have set up are fine, but at some point common sense has to take over and rules have to be adapted or ignored to 1) allow for more freedom and 2) make any kind of sense.
    The alignment restriction is in place because of being a Monk or Paladin is a way of life. It makes sense for characters of this class to have a rigid code or ethic that they follow to the letter. Mixing this up with every other class is silly. The fact a Monk archer is far and away better than a pure Ranger who is set up to be a ranged archer is ridiculous. The point being there is no balance in the game between multi-classing and making a pure class character. The whole point of multi-classing is to get a little of this and a little of that with the expectation that you are giving something away in return. The only case in DDO where you actually take a hit on something for multi-classing is if you are a caster DC focused toon like a Wizard, Sorcerer, etc.

    Another suggestion the developers could consider - one I suggested not long after the game came out was add in a Ring of Evasion. In pnp this is a 25k gold piece item that grants evasion. I think adding an items like this could help curb the multi-classing virus that has consumed the game and allow players to take advantage of making a pure class toon with a new revamped Capstone system.
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  4. #124
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimlock View Post
    Why is it the pure classes get the shaft? Why aren't there capstone's players can take at level 20 that balance out the multi-class element everyone is taking part of? Shouldn't characters who remain pure all the way exemplify their class?
    Were capstones removed since I last logged in to the game last night?

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  5. #125
    Community Member Grimlock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    Were capstones removed since I last logged in to the game last night?

    TURBINE, WHY DO YOU MAKE THESE KINDS OF STEALTH CHANGES? RAAR!
    I apologize if my post was confusing - capstones are still very much in the game. Are most of them worthless? Yup. Do they provide any advantage over a multi-classed character not DC focused? Nope.
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  6. #126
    Community Member dameron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    Wrong - You Need your DM to be naive enough to allow you to do this without 3-4 years of Role-Playing!

    PnP has checks and balances in place that DDO does not!

    On the other hand - For some reason Druids are no longer required to be True Neutral But Bards still get the inane Non-Lawful Requirement and DDO still ignores Every Deity that's not Lawful Good when it comes to Paladins.

    I could easily see a God like Olidammara having Bardic Paladins for instance.

    However the Monk bit is clearly for Min/Maxing purposes here and therefore would not be allowed by any DM with half a brain.
    No. I'm right. t's a perfectly valid combination given how trivial changing alignment is designed to be in PNP. Now the real question is why you'd do that in PNP. It's FAR from min/maxing in PNP. Two levels of monk gimp that particular character and two levels of rogue would be preferable. Sure, the +3 to saves is nice but a bard/paladin is likely to already have exceptional saves. And you have to remember, the monk bonus feats in PNP are either Improved Grapple or Stunning Fist at 1st level, and Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows at 2nd. Not exactly overwhelming. Two rogue levels give sneak attack, trapfinding, and evasion as well as tons of skill points. It's close, but the monk levels give much less than they do in DDO, and it's likely that a theoretical bard/paladin will want to wear armor and even carry a shield.
    Last edited by dameron; 10-31-2013 at 01:04 PM.

  7. #127
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimlock View Post
    I apologize if my post was confusing - capstones are still very much in the game. Are most of them worthless? Yup. Do they provide any advantage over a multi-classed character not DC focused? Nope.
    I know my Warforged Sorcerer loves his Sorc capstone...
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  8. #128
    Community Member dameron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    MOST classes give some really nifty benefits with a 2 level splash. Monk happens to give benefits that have good synergy with other melee classes and Evasion is just plain AWESOME because, well... it's Evasion.
    Which points to the real culprit, that Turbine hates AC and that physical armor has been worthless at end game for years.

    Now the problem with a Ring of Evasion is that it would allow evading attacks while wearing any kind of armor, so it would immediately be more powerful than the limited versions granted to rogues and monks as class abilities. In fact you'd probably see quite a few rogues rocking that ring if it ever came out.

  9. #129
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimlock View Post
    The alignment restriction is in place because of being a Monk or Paladin is a way of life. It makes sense for characters of this class to have a rigid code or ethic that they follow to the letter.
    For monk and paladin I will admit that it makes sense the way they are written. However, alignment restrictions only make sense until someone comes up with a good example of how they wouldn't be 100% restrictive (think drow, evil -> good). It all comes down to how closely you want to follow what has been written, and how confident you are in players' abilities to justify or create outside of the existing guidelines. I'm more for creative freedom (lock-step role playing seems to make marionettes of PnP players when following especially restrictive class guidelines) as long as there is some consistency to the actions and a reasonable justification for them. I view no document as untouchable (especially DnD books), since I fully realize they were written by simple people like you or me.

    As for alignment restrictions within DDO, well at no point during playing do we actually role play our alignments, so I don't see why they are relevant here. This is a game where we run around attacking monsters. Alignments are irrelevant.

  10. #130
    Community Member Grimlock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post
    For monk and paladin I will admit that it makes sense the way they are written. However, alignment restrictions only make sense until someone comes up with a good example of how they wouldn't be 100% restrictive (think drow, evil -> good). It all comes down to how closely you want to follow what has been written, and how confident you are in players' abilities to justify or create outside of the existing guidelines. I'm more for creative freedom (lock-step role playing seems to make marionettes of PnP players when following especially restrictive class guidelines) as long as there is some consistency to the actions and a reasonable justification for them. I view no document as untouchable (especially DnD books), since I fully realize they were written by simple people like you or me.

    As for alignment restrictions within DDO, well at no point during playing do we actually role play our alignments, so I don't see why they are relevant here. This is a game where we run around attacking monsters. Alignments are irrelevant.
    Good points in there Flavius, but without alignment restrictions there is no balance. The rules for playing a class if you meet an alignment criteria was created to help prevent twinking. As DDO is a purely combat oriented game with minimal role play I understand why they have ignored many of the pnp rules, but they certainly could have found another way to balance all of that out such that you don't need 2+ levels of Monk to maximize your potential in the game.
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  11. #131
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimlock View Post
    Good points in there Flavius, but without alignment restrictions there is no balance. The rules for playing a class if you meet an alignment criteria was created to help prevent twinking. As DDO is a purely combat oriented game with minimal role play I understand why they have ignored many of the pnp rules, but they certainly could have found another way to balance all of that out such that you don't need 2+ levels of Monk to maximize your potential in the game.
    I agree that the game is always in need of balancing, and better capstones (as long as they aren't so good that they discourage multi-classing altogether) would be a good step toward allowing for more variety and creating a better balance.
    Last edited by FlaviusMaximus; 10-31-2013 at 01:52 PM.

  12. #132
    Community Member relenttless's Avatar
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    I don't think they are overpowered.

    However:

    I have played this game now for nearly four years, until about 4 months ago I had never rolled a monk or even splashed it (number of reasons none that important). Other classes played have been fighters, barbs, rogues, fvs, cleric, ranger, pally, arti and wizz

    I had a first life pally who I went pure monk with for her first tr.

    My immediate thought was Wow!...this is SO EASY.... I don't take much damage, when I do I can heal, I evade everything, and I hit like a train, these wrap things have some fabulous effects not available on a lot of other weapons and by comparison to all my other previous toons it almost seemed like cheating.

    As a tr I can't see how that toon won't be splashing monk on just about every life...

    Just an observation
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  13. #133
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    I don't think monks are over powered at all. I do agree they are quite strong at the moment. They do enhance alot of other classes with splashing, but so do alot of other classes:

    - 2 Pal gives Divine Grace and if you use a Twist Divine Might. A str based character can with effort maintain a cha of 30-40+. An extra 10-20+ to all saves and str.

    - Clr/FvS splash can also give Divine Might, open up Empower Healing for better Coccoon healing, Scroll mastery, etc

    - 2 FvS highly regarded for Shiradi builds

    - 2 Ftr two feats, haste boost, tactics bonus

    The list goes on.
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  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by dameron View Post
    It's always been this way. Start a bard, level to 16, change alignment to lawful good (so you can no longer advance as a bard but retain all abilities). Take two levels of paladin and then switch to monk (or the other way around). You end up with a 16bard/2monk/2paladin and all you need is one atonement spell. It's all perfectly legal.
    That would be a very casual/careless DM to allow anything like that without a strong compelling reason, series of events leading up to that life changing decision, perhaps a special quest where you have to prove your change of heart, etc.
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  15. #135
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimlock View Post
    Good points in there Flavius, but without alignment restrictions there is no balance. The rules for playing a class if you meet an alignment criteria was created to help prevent twinking. As DDO is a purely combat oriented game with minimal role play I understand why they have ignored many of the pnp rules, but they certainly could have found another way to balance all of that out such that you don't need 2+ levels of Monk to maximize your potential in the game.
    Alignment restrictions are for flavor and not balance. How does 2 pally levels for cha to saves make a bard more powerful than a sorc? It doesnt. This is why 3.5 didnt use the same alignment restrictions for the PRC versions of many classes like they did for the core class. Paladins have to be LG. Divine champion can be any alignment. They still get lay on hands, cha to saves, and even more selectable feats than a paladin. The major issue is we dont have this ability in DDO. We only have the core classes, and the PRE are tied to those class levels. If I wanted a bard to have cha to saves in PnP Id have a few levels of divine champion.

    The entire idea that bard cannot be lawful, but a rogue can be any alignment, is hilarious. Shows how out of focus they were when the archtypes were created for 3.5.
    Last edited by Chai; 10-31-2013 at 02:24 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  16. #136
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Braegan View Post
    That would be a very casual/careless DM to allow anything like that without a strong compelling reason, series of events leading up to that life changing decision, perhaps a special quest where you have to prove your change of heart, etc.
    Just be divine champion, no change of heart needed, continue to play songs in the name of the same god youve always played songs for.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  17. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Just be divine champion, no change of heart needed, continue to play songs in the name of the same god youve always played songs for.
    True that would solve the 2 Pally splash, tho the 2 monk levels adding in got some 'splaining to do!
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  18. #138
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Braegan View Post
    True that would solve the 2 Pally splash, tho the 2 monk levels adding in got some 'splaining to do!
    There are a TON of 1-2 level splash PRC that get evasion in PnP. Some get feats, some are granted other desireable abilities, etc...

    While one would have a hard time making a 16 bard 2 paladin 2 monk, it wouldnt be hard to make a 16 bard 2 (cha to saves) 2 (evasion + other abilities) in PnP, and not have to do the alignment dance with the DM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  19. #139

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    Alignment restrictions never really made sense to me in PnP or DDO. I guess a character that plays instruments automatically shouldn't be able to follow or respect the law?
    The problem is not that the restrictions don't make sense. The problem is that you do not understand what alignment is.

    Lawful has absolutely nothing to do with "the law", any more than being 20th level means you have a lot of carpentry tools.

    A paladin is not obligated to follow the law. If the law stated that all paladins have to sacrifice and eat a baby once a month, they are not compelled to obey this law just because it was written down on a piece of paper somewhere.
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  20. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    There are a TON of 1-2 level splash PRC that get evasion in PnP. Some get feats, some are granted other desireable abilities, etc...

    While one would have a hard time making a 16 bard 2 paladin 2 monk, it wouldnt be hard to make a 16 bard 2 (cha to saves) 2 (evasion + other abilities) in PnP, and not have to do the alignment dance with the DM.
    Oh sure, there are lots of ways to do what you're talking about. My post was a response another poster made saying all they had to do to make a 16 bard/2 pal/2 monk was level up as a bard, have a spell cast on you, presto change alignment, now advance as a pally and then a monk.

    So yeah, in most pnp groups I was in you made legitimate builds or you had to have a real good reason why the DM would allow it.
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