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  1. #1
    Community Member Shorlong's Avatar
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    Default Mabar Lag Explained (Not AOE, not Gargoyles)

    The Summoning Chamber uses 4 instances (probably more, but there are never enough people on to make that happen). These four instances are shared with raids and the crafting hall. Those are i2049, i2050, i2051, i2052. The reason why you are having lag is because you are in one of these instances.

    Now, to the people who were yelling at me after my group had a successful run and they all lag-failed, let me try to explain this in simple terms. I know there are level differences, but that has nothing to do with it. here is what the issue is.

    Normally, on an average night, if there are more high levels doing the summoning chamber, it would look like this.

    Level 1-6 - i2049 (full)
    Level 7-13 - i2049 (full) - i2050 (23)
    Level 14-20 - i2049 (full) - i2050 (full) - i2051(20)
    Level 20-25 - i2049 (full) - i2050 (full) - i2051 (full) - i2052 (20)
    Level 26-30 - i2049 (full) - i2050 (full) - i2051 (full) - i2052 (17)

    So, i2049 is always laggy because EVERY level range is using that one. This is also being used by anyone in the crafting hall, and also anyone running any raids. i2050 is somewhat laggy, but ok, will probably notice some hiccups. i2051 and up are going to only fail due to players, should experience no lag.

    Now, let's look at this past Saturday night and see what could have happened then. Now, please remember, these numbers are just conjecture, there may have been more instances, I do not know. But, humor me here.

    Level 1-6 - i2049 (full) - i2050 (full) - i2051 (12)
    Level 7-13 - i2049 (full) - i2050 (full) - i2051 (full) - i2052 (17)
    Level 14-20 - i2049 (full) - i2050 (full) - i2051 (full) - i2052 (23)
    Level 20-25 - i2049 (full) - i2050 (full) - i2051 (full) - i2052 (20)
    Level 26-30 - i2049 (full) - i2050 (full) - i2051 (full) - i2052 (18)

    So, as there are more players on, the earliest to get there and get in a group had the most issues, as i2049 and i2050 are completely full to the brim and bursting, whereas i2051 will probably have some noticeable lag, could cause a wipe or fail. i2052 will probably be a little laggy, but not too bad.

    Now, to refute some claims. I have gotten a few groups to try some things, and I can say this much:

    • Mass invis on the altar does nothing one way or the other.
    • AOE's do NOT cause the lag. We laid down dancing balls, firewalls, acid rain, earthquake, lightning storm and blade barriers. Had some FPS drop, noticeable graphical lag for some. Had zero effect on game and we finished.
    • Pets, companions and summons. Just like the argument has been said on the forums before, this does nothing to increase or decrease lag. The companions are drawn client side (which is why on my computer, I see my owlbear beside me, and my wife see's it standing behind me on her computer). The small amount of data being sent to show that actions are happening are not enough to cause any lag. It would take hundreds of players all with them out to have any significance on that particular instance, and then it wouldn't be game breaking.
    • Waiting to ready the altar, or not pulling the lever does NOT reduce or increase the amount of lag.


    The only thing I can see that doesn't help is the aggro issue. It does seem to be similar to the Baudry quest with the kobolds aggroing the boxes. However, I think that is in addition to the instance issue described above.

    I hope I made some sense to someone, and that I do not sound like a blabbering idiot (granted, that is unavoidable with me). I'm just hoping to clarify it for some people.
    Shorlong - Pale Master, Cevon - Druid Archer, Gorgnak - Barbarian, Addanc - Bear Tank, Juristash - Shadar Kai Assassin, Treiah - Morninglord Tempest Ranger, Baylfyre - CC Bard, Deimanus - Bladeforged Melee Arti, Daerian - Healing Cleric Morninglord, Krazig - Pally Tank, Veriste - Shadar Kai Death Knight, Xanapheia - TWF FVS, Helainia - Shadar Kai Henshin-Theif

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  2. #2
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    so in other words, close down crafting halls and raids and leave Mabar up and there wont be any lag. problem solved
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  3. #3

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    I hate to say it, but I believe that it has been either determined by the player community, or it has been mentioned briefly by the devs, that the instance number (i2049, i2050) does not necessarily have anything to do with lag issues.

    The origin of this speculation came from some very creative and extensive testing from folks in Over Raided on Orien. While players still seem to cling to the fact that the instance number is everything to do with the lag, I am pretty sure that it does not. There are always coincidences. But, I am of the belief that the instance number is nothing more than what it appears to be... merely a number.

    It would be GREAT if we could get a systems dev to engage with us, explain instance lag and instance crashing, and other lag factors. Then, perhaps, we the players might be able to capture better data surrounding our lag failures that might shed some light on what is going on.

  4. #4
    Hero JOTMON's Avatar
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    I agree Mass Invis does not contribute to lag

    Quote Originally Posted by Shorlong View Post
    ~[*]Mass invis on the altar does nothing one way or the other.

    I disagree that it does nothing one way or the other.

    Mass Invis from what I see when cast does help.

    No mass invis on alter - Gargoyles go straight for the alter ignoring players until player establish aggro, usually after the gargoyles have thrown a hit or two on the alter.

    With Mass Invis- Instead of all the gargoyles making a bline to the alter they aggro on the nearest party member.

    Is it a substantial difference, perhaps not, but in cases where 20-30 hits on the alter would have mattered.. I say it does make a difference.
    Last edited by JOTMON; 10-28-2013 at 04:42 PM.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by JOTMON View Post
    I disagree with this one.

    Mass Invis from what I see when cast does help.

    No mass invis on alter - Gargoyles go straight for the alter ignoring players until player establish aggro, usually after the gargoyles have thrown a hit or two on the alter.

    With Mass Invis- Instead of all the gargoyles making a bline to the alter they aggro on the nearest party member.

    Is it a substantial difference, perhaps not, but in cases where 20-30 hits on the alter would have mattered.. I say it does make a difference.
    I think he meant mass invis does not cause or prevent lag.

  6. #6
    Community Member Grosbeak07's Avatar
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    Chatting with guildies, I've found that when they are getting the worse of lag, their frame rates are nil. 0. Screen freeze. That's not exactly "lag", but an issue related to mobs and lots and lots of AOE. Still something that Turbine should be able to fix. This DOES NOT ACCOUNT for all lag, there is lag involved, but I suggest people check their frame rates (Control + f) to see and turn on their network connection (UI panel to turn it on) and see which is affected.

    In runs with limited AOE (usually daytime), I've found little lag and near perfect runs. But when 27 casters start dropping acid clouds, rain, ice storm, earthquake etc, everything grinds to a halt frame rate wise and no doubt stresses the servers, which is causing lag spikes in people in content no where near Mabar.
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  7. #7
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    mass invis does seem to work on the altars. everytime altars are invis'd, gargoyles run straight for us. its after the lag wipe that you see some gargoyles beating on the altar before you get kicked out, but some also run around like they are looking for something.
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  8. #8
    Community Member Shorlong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krelar View Post
    I think he meant mass invis does not cause or prevent lag.
    Yes, exactly what I meant ! I have seen/heard/read some people say that invis on the altar causes lag, or it reduces lag. It has NO effect on the lag. It DOES, however, make the fight a little easier...if you aren't lagging.
    Shorlong - Pale Master, Cevon - Druid Archer, Gorgnak - Barbarian, Addanc - Bear Tank, Juristash - Shadar Kai Assassin, Treiah - Morninglord Tempest Ranger, Baylfyre - CC Bard, Deimanus - Bladeforged Melee Arti, Daerian - Healing Cleric Morninglord, Krazig - Pally Tank, Veriste - Shadar Kai Death Knight, Xanapheia - TWF FVS, Helainia - Shadar Kai Henshin-Theif

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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cauthey_No_CCInfo View Post
    I hate to say it, but I believe that it has been either determined by the player community, or it has been mentioned briefly by the devs, that the instance number (i2049, i2050) does not necessarily have anything to do with lag issues.
    That's been said by devs a couple of times. However:

    -Devs have been wrong before. There could also have been trying to discourage players from causing lag by overloading a crafting hall instance.

    -Those particular instances are a common correlation in lag problems. There is a relationship there, even it's not a direct cause/effect one.

    -I don't know many players who bother with crafting anymore; I do, and it's absolutely normal to freeze (and often near-DC) for one to five seconds when deconstructing a single item. It's also normal to freeze simply being in there. The entrance load screen is typically longer than most, and logins take longer on average; you test both of those against yourself.

    Whether or not those particular instances directly cause lag is not something I have the background to know or the ability and data to test. Believe what you will, my money's on it being a factor.

  10. #10
    Community Member Cedrica-the-Bard's Avatar
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    Thanks for this! Hubby and I stopped trying due to lag but tonight we got three successful runs in, zero lag, simply by waiting 5-6 minutes before entering the dragon chamber.

  11. #11
    Community Member HernandoCortez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shorlong View Post
    So, as there are more players on, the earliest to get there and get in a group had the most issues
    This information has been passed around for a while now. But good work on the thread. You managed to explain it well.

    But I don't think that statement above is correct. I have entered dragon instances near the door closing time, yet I had zoned in into a laggy instance.

  12. #12
    Community Member Hendrik's Avatar
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    Lag is caused by the players wearing pants while playing DDO.

    There is an easy fix....



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  13. #13
    Community Member HernandoCortez's Avatar
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    Lagfail on a i2052.

  14. #14
    Community Member Shorlong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HernandoCortez View Post
    Lagfail on a i2052.
    Yeah, the 20-25 instance on Thelanis just now was up to instance i2054, so I am assuming that 2053 would be the first one not to lag. Downside, I got into 2054, and we had around 12 people. Never saw the dragon, but I was on my frenzy barb (with no pots) and another barb in the room (who ran out of pots)....I got enough aggro on teh gargoyles (and was down to around 20 hp) and started running around the room with sprint boost on while they chased me..that lasted a good 30 seconds before I finally got hit. Then they got the altar and it was over. Funnily, the instance did not end, and I sat there for two minutes and zoned out, losing my key....
    Shorlong - Pale Master, Cevon - Druid Archer, Gorgnak - Barbarian, Addanc - Bear Tank, Juristash - Shadar Kai Assassin, Treiah - Morninglord Tempest Ranger, Baylfyre - CC Bard, Deimanus - Bladeforged Melee Arti, Daerian - Healing Cleric Morninglord, Krazig - Pally Tank, Veriste - Shadar Kai Death Knight, Xanapheia - TWF FVS, Helainia - Shadar Kai Henshin-Theif

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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shorlong View Post
    The Summoning Chamber uses 4 instances (probably more, but there are never enough people on to make that happen). These four instances are shared with raids and the crafting hall. Those are i2049, i2050, i2051, i2052. The reason why you are having lag is because you are in one of these instances.

    Now, to the people who were yelling at me after my group had a successful run and they all lag-failed, let me try to explain this in simple terms. I know there are level differences, but that has nothing to do with it. here is what the issue is.

    Normally, on an average night, if there are more high levels doing the summoning chamber, it would look like this.

    Level 1-6 - i2049 (full)
    Level 7-13 - i2049 (full) - i2050 (23)
    Level 14-20 - i2049 (full) - i2050 (full) - i2051(20)
    Level 20-25 - i2049 (full) - i2050 (full) - i2051 (full) - i2052 (20)
    Level 26-30 - i2049 (full) - i2050 (full) - i2051 (full) - i2052 (17)

    So, i2049 is always laggy because EVERY level range is using that one. This is also being used by anyone in the crafting hall, and also anyone running any raids. i2050 is somewhat laggy, but ok, will probably notice some hiccups. i2051 and up are going to only fail due to players, should experience no lag.

    Now, let's look at this past Saturday night and see what could have happened then. Now, please remember, these numbers are just conjecture, there may have been more instances, I do not know. But, humor me here.

    Level 1-6 - i2049 (full) - i2050 (full) - i2051 (12)
    Level 7-13 - i2049 (full) - i2050 (full) - i2051 (full) - i2052 (17)
    Level 14-20 - i2049 (full) - i2050 (full) - i2051 (full) - i2052 (23)
    Level 20-25 - i2049 (full) - i2050 (full) - i2051 (full) - i2052 (20)
    Level 26-30 - i2049 (full) - i2050 (full) - i2051 (full) - i2052 (18)

    So, as there are more players on, the earliest to get there and get in a group had the most issues, as i2049 and i2050 are completely full to the brim and bursting, whereas i2051 will probably have some noticeable lag, could cause a wipe or fail. i2052 will probably be a little laggy, but not too bad.

    Now, to refute some claims. I have gotten a few groups to try some things, and I can say this much:

    • Mass invis on the altar does nothing one way or the other.
    • AOE's do NOT cause the lag. We laid down dancing balls, firewalls, acid rain, earthquake, lightning storm and blade barriers. Had some FPS drop, noticeable graphical lag for some. Had zero effect on game and we finished.
    • Pets, companions and summons. Just like the argument has been said on the forums before, this does nothing to increase or decrease lag. The companions are drawn client side (which is why on my computer, I see my owlbear beside me, and my wife see's it standing behind me on her computer). The small amount of data being sent to show that actions are happening are not enough to cause any lag. It would take hundreds of players all with them out to have any significance on that particular instance, and then it wouldn't be game breaking.
    • Waiting to ready the altar, or not pulling the lever does NOT reduce or increase the amount of lag.


    The only thing I can see that doesn't help is the aggro issue. It does seem to be similar to the Baudry quest with the kobolds aggroing the boxes. However, I think that is in addition to the instance issue described above.

    I hope I made some sense to someone, and that I do not sound like a blabbering idiot (granted, that is unavoidable with me). I'm just hoping to clarify it for some people.
    I agree instances can and have contributed to lag due to filling up...but someone had a theory that mass invis on altars has a detrimental effect on gargoyle and dragon AI. After reading this, every single instance I have been in where invis was used on altars we had lag,and sometimes crippling lag to fail. All other instances I have been in where invis was asked not to be used, every single time was no crippling lag and succeeded. Sampling size is approximately 25 runs...good enough for me to believe.

    If you think about it, if the baddies are queried to look for altar 1st, their AI is bugged until a player can agro them...makes sense.

  16. #16
    Community Member Vengeance777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cauthey_No_CCInfo View Post
    I hate to say it, but I believe that it has been either determined by the player community, or it has been mentioned briefly by the devs, that the instance number (i2049, i2050) does not necessarily have anything to do with lag issues.

    The origin of this speculation came from some very creative and extensive testing from folks in Over Raided on Orien. While players still seem to cling to the fact that the instance number is everything to do with the lag, I am pretty sure that it does not. There are always coincidences. But, I am of the belief that the instance number is nothing more than what it appears to be... merely a number.
    I was the player from OR that posted the i2049 theory. While at the time it seemed to be the case and the old info of swapping instances did help, it no longer does. The game has changed since then and Devs have confirmed 1 instance number does not lag anymore than any other instance. Lag can strike any instance anytime and it does. Since the Baudry fix was done lag has gotten significantly less likely to happen, though it still can occur in raids and quests, usually with mobs that spawn in hostile.

    As for Mabar we've still been collecting info from fellow Orien players. What we've found out is lag mostly occurs in Level 26+ instances. It only happens when prehostile (already aggroed on Lever or Alter) Gargoyles spawn during the raid. The only way to stop the lag when it hits is for the hostile mob to die or for all players in monsters aggression list to die.

    The lag is no longer instance wide. Today a level 26 raid in i2049 had lag so bad all players in instance froze in place, party, voice chat, and guild chat still worked fine, but general chat was delayed by up to 3 mins. During this time a low level Dragon fight in i2049 experienced no lag what soever and suceded. It seems lag is now isolated to your particular quest zone of an instance and no longer instance wide. SO other Dragon fights can no longer affect yours.

    It has also been tested that lag can strike an instance no matter what the party size is. I've personally seen lag hit in a dragon fight with less than 16 people total and had runs with 30+ people experience no lag.

    Some other things we've learned.

    - Based on what we know, the lag appears to be caused by Gargoyles sharing the same AI as the Kobolds in the old version of Protect Baudry's interests. When the Mabar event was tested on Lamania the first year the baudry Kobolds were placeholders and actually spawned in place of the Gargoyles. The alter is most probably a reskinned box and the gargoyle are copy and pasted Kobold AI with a different monster used in its place with new dialog. Most likely there was an oversight and the Mabar gargoyles weren't patched when the Baudry kobolds were.

    - Waiting to activate alters until well after the 10 minute countdown for the doors to close does not alleviate lag in any way. We've seen runs succeed just as many times as runs fail when the alter is not clicked until well after countdown. I've been in just as many successful Dragon fights that started as soon as the timer hit 0 and ones that waited 5 mins afterwords.

    -AOEs DO NOT CAUSE LAG PERIOD. The only thing AOEs can cause is visual FPS drop. Disco ball can really drop your fps if you have a low end or onboard graphics card. Its especially bad if you have your graphics set to "Optimal settings" on a laptop. This can make it appear you are lagging but you are not, your graphics card is hitting a data bottleneck and no longer able to display what you are doing in real time. Turn your graphics to very low before heading into a Dragon fight and this issue will be fixed.

    - Firewall is hands down the best way to protect the alters and prevent lag. Firewalls last 30 seconds, constantly tick damage when the gargoyle is in it, and do xtra damage to undead. This gets the gargoyles aggroed at the caster instead of the alter. In the event of lag the firewall keeps ticking and can kill the bugged Gargoyle causing the lag thus curing the lag. Other AOE damage spells can work but keep in mind most do less damage then firewall, or cause visual impairment. Spells like Blade barrier are decent when an arcane isn't arround but keep in mind it only hits when a Gargoyle runs through it, it won't keep doing damage when players freeze in place because of lag like firewall will.

    -At the first sign of lag when gargoyles are in a room, spam energy burst, cleaves, everything is nothing or any other attack/spell that hits multiple mobs at once. With luck you will drop the gargoyle thats causing lag and stop the lag before it bottlenecks and the game stops accepting data from the players.

    - Leaving the levers on longer then the Dragon is in the room increases the chances of Lag dramatically. The more gargoyles that spawn the more chances for whatever is bugging them to happen.

    - Lower level Dragon instances have the best chance to succeed. Gargoyles and the dragons have significantly less hp than the 26+ instance. A lagged gargoyle will usually instantly die to a firewall or from 3 hits by a melee, and the dragon fights are a lot shorter meaning less time for a bug to occur.

    - Level 26+ has the greatest chance to lag. The Gargoyles and Dragon have significantly higher HP so they last longer meaning more time for the lag bug to happen.

    Hope some of this info helps others.
    Last edited by Vengeance777; 10-29-2013 at 12:18 AM.
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  17. #17
    Community Member TBot1234's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vengeance777 View Post
    I was the player from OR that posted the i2049 theory. While at the time it seemed to be the case and the old info of swapping instances did help, it no longer does. The game has changed since then and Devs have confirmed 1 instance number does not lag anymore than any other instance. Lag can strike any instance anytime and it does. Since the Baudry fix was done lag has gotten significantly less likely to happen, though it still can occur in raids and quests, usually with mobs that spawn in hostile.
    Thanks for the update Vengeance777. I was about to re-read the i2049 posts, then jumped online to test instead. Had hella terrific lag in i2051. Anyway, it is good to read this. I wish other people would. It is a bit fun to see people recounting urban legends for 7 minutes between the time you enter the chamber and the time the dragon appears (You there, dismiss your pets; no AOE; no earthquake; no disco; no summons; don't click the altars right away; don't pull levers, etc.). On the other hand, I guess it's a testament to people's willingness to try to figure out how to survice a rough situation. And Mabar has undoubtedly been pretty rough!
    "So maybe it's about time we all get a reality check and realize that if you raid, run epics, and have capped toons and worry about ED's TR's and all that jazz, you are a small part of the population of this game, a very small part in fact." -- Ungood

  18. #18
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    Have you ever noticed how most instances start out with no lag? The first wave of gargoyles come out, they get nuked, danced, fire walled etc, and things seem fine? Then about a minute or two in, things start to go south.

    I have noticed that the high level instances often last a little longer than the low level instances and are significantly more prone to lag by all accounts.

    I have also noticed when I finish a low-level instance that my raid channel lights up immediately with OMG LAG!!!! comments as all the toons from my instance are loaded back into the graveyard. It's basically 100% correlation from what I can see.

    I think it is other instances unloading that is causing existing instances to freeze up.

    Food for thought.

    I should add: for the first time in about 36 runs, I had control over every member in my 20-25 room. I forbade anyone to touch the altar. We did not prep it until every instance but the 26s were done. We watched the who panel to determine this. After every group except the 26s were done, which took about 5 minutes, we prepped the altar. We did not experience any lag whatsoever. Absolutely none. It was the way Mabar was intended. I am absolutely convinced instance unloading is the real problem.
    Last edited by Katie_Seaglen; 10-29-2013 at 01:35 AM.

  19. #19
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    Not so certain about the instances. I have had lagless runs in i2049 on prime, and failed in i2051 off prime because of lag.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shorlong View Post
    The Summoning Chamber uses 4 instances (probably more, but there are never enough people on to make that happen). These four instances are shared with raids and the crafting hall. Those are i2049, i2050, i2051, i2052. The reason why you are having lag is because you are in one of these instances.

    Now, to the people who were yelling at me after my group had a successful run and they all lag-failed, let me try to explain this in simple terms. I know there are level differences, but that has nothing to do with it. here is what the issue is.

    Normally, on an average night, if there are more high levels doing the summoning chamber, it would look like this.

    Level 1-6 - i2049 (full)
    Level 7-13 - i2049 (full) - i2050 (23)
    Level 14-20 - i2049 (full) - i2050 (full) - i2051(20)
    Level 20-25 - i2049 (full) - i2050 (full) - i2051 (full) - i2052 (20)
    Level 26-30 - i2049 (full) - i2050 (full) - i2051 (full) - i2052 (17)

    So, i2049 is always laggy because EVERY level range is using that one. This is also being used by anyone in the crafting hall, and also anyone running any raids. i2050 is somewhat laggy, but ok, will probably notice some hiccups. i2051 and up are going to only fail due to players, should experience no lag.

    Now, let's look at this past Saturday night and see what could have happened then. Now, please remember, these numbers are just conjecture, there may have been more instances, I do not know. But, humor me here.

    Level 1-6 - i2049 (full) - i2050 (full) - i2051 (12)
    Level 7-13 - i2049 (full) - i2050 (full) - i2051 (full) - i2052 (17)
    Level 14-20 - i2049 (full) - i2050 (full) - i2051 (full) - i2052 (23)
    Level 20-25 - i2049 (full) - i2050 (full) - i2051 (full) - i2052 (20)
    Level 26-30 - i2049 (full) - i2050 (full) - i2051 (full) - i2052 (18)

    So, as there are more players on, the earliest to get there and get in a group had the most issues, as i2049 and i2050 are completely full to the brim and bursting, whereas i2051 will probably have some noticeable lag, could cause a wipe or fail. i2052 will probably be a little laggy, but not too bad.

    Now, to refute some claims. I have gotten a few groups to try some things, and I can say this much:

    • Mass invis on the altar does nothing one way or the other.
    • AOE's do NOT cause the lag. We laid down dancing balls, firewalls, acid rain, earthquake, lightning storm and blade barriers. Had some FPS drop, noticeable graphical lag for some. Had zero effect on game and we finished.
    • Pets, companions and summons. Just like the argument has been said on the forums before, this does nothing to increase or decrease lag. The companions are drawn client side (which is why on my computer, I see my owlbear beside me, and my wife see's it standing behind me on her computer). The small amount of data being sent to show that actions are happening are not enough to cause any lag. It would take hundreds of players all with them out to have any significance on that particular instance, and then it wouldn't be game breaking.
    • Waiting to ready the altar, or not pulling the lever does NOT reduce or increase the amount of lag.


    The only thing I can see that doesn't help is the aggro issue. It does seem to be similar to the Baudry quest with the kobolds aggroing the boxes. However, I think that is in addition to the instance issue described above.

    I hope I made some sense to someone, and that I do not sound like a blabbering idiot (granted, that is unavoidable with me). I'm just hoping to clarify it for some people.
    I would say thank you for this, but your level ranges are wrong, and if those are wrong, how can I trust your numbers per instance? Wiki says chambers are Levels 1 through 8 (Summoning Chamber A), Levels 9 through 14 (Summoning Chamber B) Levels 15 through 19 (Summoning Chamber C), Levels 20 through 25 (Summoning Chamber D), Levels 26 through 30 (Summoning Chamber E)... and I've been running chambers A, C, D and E.

    I do not know what calculates as full, but if you are in a raid party when entering an instance, everyone in your party (if in the same level range), will enter the same instance, so the "full" is not a static number. I usually recommend that ppl activate all altars as soon as there's enough ppl covering all altars and levers, to stop more ppl entering.

    I know these instances are shared with crafting hall and some raids, so you may be right on that one, but this is only a problem during high activity times, like 5pm EST on Saturday. When running mabar I've had the least issues in chamber C, completed every time, so your theory doesn't quite hold there either. Ppl may experience a lot lag in one chamber level, why none at all in another, no matter of instance number.
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