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  1. #101
    Community Member Ausdoerrt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    The big thing to remember here is not that DDO F2P (There were many F2P games before DDO) it was that DDO was AFAIK the first game to change it's payment model mid stride, going from Sub to Micro-Transaction, all other games were built from the ground up to follow a specific model of payment and thus better designed in that venture, however DDO showed the world that a game does not need to be stuck in one method, they are also the only game with a sub/one time purchase deal, this also setting the stage for other games to move along the lines with less fear. Basically Turbine made a jump into the Unknown, by swapping how it sold it's game, and not only did it swim, it rocked out of the pool of debt, and flew. Other games saw this turn around and realized that they were not chained to their current payment model, and that alone opened doors for them.
    Not entirely true. IIRC, many of the less-successful/less-popular sub games often "went to die" in F2P even before DDO went "free".

    Quote Originally Posted by YoureDown View Post
    Well, DDO did have some kind of influence, as I recall totalbiscuit praising the game's F2P system back in the day and calling for other games to adapt DDO's system. that video had a ton of views. BUT, you have to remember, DDO is only one of many many F2P games, some better than DDO according to an amount of people, some worse, again, by some people's standards. I think it was more due to RIFT going F2P, SW:TOR going f2p (and failing horribly), and other AAA MMO's going F2P. DDO's community is considered not that big in MMO standards, but we sure are a dedicated bunch, and because of that I think DDOs influence is weaker, since we arent many and we dont leave the game that easily (Remember all the bugs? glitches not working quests closures etc? Yeah we're still playing, even though there's competition!)
    The system back then and the system now are two different beasts.

    And again, the most influence DDO had was on feeding the media discussion, IMO.
    "People are stupid; given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. ... People's heads are full of knowledge, facts, and beliefs, and most of it is false, yet they think it all true." Terry Goodkind

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Hello Xianio, I see you have noticed that I have not been responding to you, even tho you have constantly been mewling for my attention via the typical means of tossing out insults to glean a response.
    Well of course you see that. I outright said it after pointing out that you were trolling Chai and suggesting that he ignore you.

    I view you as little more then Chai's boot lick, which means you are beneath me.
    Well, that's a little silly mostly because it's wrong. In fact, it's really too bad because you get to let your ego out - it's really about you. Personally I don't care much for either you or Chai's positions on issues and I see you both as Black to the others White. Generally you're both guilty of generalizing rather complex issues into 1 or 2 sentences.

    However, what makes you different is that you're easily the most consistently aggressive, insulting and dismissive person on this forum. While most here are capable of disagreeing with each other and moving on, for you, that seems to be impossible. You take a disagreement and react to it like it's a personal attack. Basically, you're a bully and a troll - something I tend to dislike.

    So, you really shouldn't think of me as a "Chai Supporter" because that's reductive and doesn't give you the credit you deserve.

    While you are of course welcome to continue your trekking after me
    Thank you, I probably will although with much less frequency than you may expect. Mostly to do a variation on this:

    But make no mistake, I will still warn people about your misuse of terms, until you start to use them correctly.
    Because the grandiose'ness' of this claim is far to funny not to engage with.

    Finally, just so that we're clear on the rules Ungood: Much like I said to you the first time you engaged with me, I'm only ever going to play by your rules. If you make a post using antiquated, DnD nerd-esq terms so will I. If you attempt to marry me to another poster, I will do to you in return. If you dismiss me as 'unworthy' I'll tailor my response so it gives the impression that I believe myself to be smarter than you.

    Game clock.
    O.O This is truly embarrassing. I can't believe I wrote shot clock instead of game clock. I feel bad because I should feel bad.

    He got him in an arm bar and everyone expected him to tap out, but then his opponent did a reverse triple axel that won over even the Russian judge. He went and stood on the winner's podium, was thrown a bouquet of flowers, and awaited his gold medal, but then his opponent swallowed the 57th hot dog to take the title.
    This doesn't make ANY sense... any competition worth it's salt would CLEARLY require more than 57 hotdogs to be each. What is this? Amateur hour? FlaviusMaximus, I expect more, so much more. >
    Last edited by Xianio; 10-30-2013 at 10:27 AM.

  3. #103
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    At this stage in the game WOW is more dangerous to DDO than DDo is to WOW.

    The critical error here being too few endgame raids + invalitadion of the previous endgame loot. Add in that the current plan for endgame is to TR over and over again, plus the fact that WOW, which has alot of focus on raids may go F2P. DDO having a much smaller population, will be more heavily impacted each time users leave this game for other games. WOW can afford to take that beating, which is why they did not go F2P right away. They werent going to kill off a good formula of 11 million subs taking in 10-15 bucks a month each.

    Now that people are leaving that game, if they decide to go F2P, many of those who came here from other MMOs in the first place might turn that direction. DDOs next content update is looking like it will be 2 quests. The hard core D&D crowd may hang in there and stay around, but those whose first fantasy genre experience was MMOs, might go check that out now that they dont have to pay up front.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  4. #104
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausdoerrt View Post
    Not entirely true. IIRC, many of the less-successful/less-popular sub games often "went to die" in F2P even before DDO went "free".
    I do not recall this. I mean I know of many tossing out 'Free Trials' as they were sinking, and that was a common tactic no doubt, but I don't know of any that just went "Free" as they were going down, that is not to say that did not exist, and they may have been small time things, which would explain that, but, I don't know of any popular or known MMO that went totally F2P as it was crashing and burning.

  5. #105

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    The #1 way Turbine can ensure longevity at this point is producing new content. Everything should come somewhere after that.

    WoW regardless of their upcoming decisions, will continue to prosper in some form for many more years because of the plethora of content. All the mmos that are nearing a decade or over a decade have oodles of content.

    Hopefully Turbine IS DONE upgrading systems and get back to churning out great new content in 2014 and '15. They said pretty much that in the MMO podcast. Definitely FR in '14 and Potentially Eberron in '15. Ditch as many exploiters and bugs as your team can and you have a working, winning strategy.

    Re-Working 3BC is great, especially for us old school DDOers, but refresh projects should always be packaged with some NEW content and all refresh projects should be promoted as secondary to the main course (NEW content).

    Just my opi
    Last edited by LeslieWest_GuitarGod; 10-30-2013 at 06:59 PM.


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  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    At this stage in the game WOW is more dangerous to DDO than DDo is to WOW.

    The critical error here being too few endgame raids + invalitadion of the previous endgame loot. Add in that the current plan for endgame is to TR over and over again, plus the fact that WOW, which has alot of focus on raids may go F2P. DDO having a much smaller population, will be more heavily impacted each time users leave this game for other games. WOW can afford to take that beating, which is why they did not go F2P right away. They werent going to kill off a good formula of 11 million subs taking in 10-15 bucks a month each.

    Now that people are leaving that game, if they decide to go F2P, many of those who came here from other MMOs in the first place might turn that direction. DDOs next content update is looking like it will be 2 quests. The hard core D&D crowd may hang in there and stay around, but those whose first fantasy genre experience was MMOs, might go check that out now that they dont have to pay up front.
    WoW has been invalidating endgame loot since its first expansion. And there have always been too few raids in DDO.

  7. #107
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schaden_freude View Post
    WoW has been invalidating endgame loot since its first expansion.
    Not close when measuring it in terms of degree. In a tier based progression raiding game, the entire reason to get tier 5 loot is to be able to have a snowballs chance in hell to beat tier 6 raids when they come out. If someone skipped a tier, and show up to a tier 6 raid in tier 4 gear, their contribution is minimal. The t5 gear only becomes "invalid" after the character has an entire suit of t6 gear. In DDO, by comparison, on the friday before the expansion dropped, the EE Dream Visor was selling straight up for an ottos box, even trade. On monday it was worthless. DDO invalidated the lions share of less than 6 month old raid gear, overnight.

    A WOW player will still need that t5 raid gear to get into t6 raids. In DDO, if someone started today, they can skip having to farm any of the old content for gear, and go straight to the current items when they are of a level to use them (and the XP to attain the level can be bought as of next update).

    Where DDO beats WOW is the invalidation of leveling content. DDO players still use 7+ year old content to level. In WOW those zones are ghost towns, save for the most recent. There are a very few exceptions to this rule.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schaden_freude View Post
    And there have always been too few raids in DDO.
    Not to the degree there are now. In the first two years of the game they made 9 raids. In the next almost 6 years afterward, they still havent reached another 9.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  8. #108
    Community Member goodspeed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    What WOW did was genius at a business level and annoying as hell from a player perspective. Well before their MMO launched, they invited all of the high end raiding guilds in other MMOs to give them what they wanted, then they listened. People in EQ1 were complaining up a storm that having one world boss a week per server in the same open and contested instance was not allowing fast enough loot drops for everyone who could kill that content. WOW put instanced raiding in their game. EQ would attempt to do this later on but it was too late, as they didn't listen until WOW did it, and pulled most of the endgame guilds out of most other games to play WOW. The other things players in other MMOs complained about were that the penalties for dying were too harsh, and the XP totals needed to get one level were too large. WOW responded by making dying basically an equipment repair bill (this started a major trend) and making leveling to cap super easy (also started a major trend).

    What WOW found out was that most MMO players in that era level a toon in the same respect that they drive to work. Impatient to get to their destination to say the least, to the point where they will have "MMO road rage" at anyone that causes anything to happen that makes them level slower, like die in a quest. Leveling was done best solo or duo, in the company of one other player, where in EQ and other games it was done faster in a full group chain pulling mobs.



    MMOs now days play like a single player game, with the major difference of being surrounded by other players. Ive leveled to max in three other MMOs while just trying them out, and I also played Skyrim, and each of the MMOs was the same experience as Skyrim was. The minute you start talking about forced cooperation in an MMO game forum, you are met with sneering disagreement about how my cleric isn't your babysitter, and how each player absolutely needs to be doing the killing rather than keeping everyone else propped up with buffs or heals. Its amazing how many people insist on logging into a game where they are surrounded by tens of thousands of other players, simply so they can solo their way to cap as quickly as possible. Any obstacle will not be regarded as an acceptable challenge, but as an annoyance which wastes their time, and avoided altogether, to the point that if they are required to do it once per life to flag for something else, it gets complained about until the devs crucible it out of the game.

    TR is simply another hamster wheel which allows players to level the same toon rather than play alts. It does have the illusion that it makes your toon a tad better each life, which in technicality it does, but the reality of that situation is it serves no purpose, because building a toon that can stun or insta kill at endgame is pointless as there is nothing to do once you get there, and there are first life builds that can handle that content just as easily anyhow - they just do massive burst damage rather than specialize in DC. Turbine realizes that this is the only real "endgame" left so they are attempting to leverage TRing to make more money in the store, but to do so they have to nerf the ability to get the heart of wood free in game, to that of an undesired endgame grind (when these folks want nothing more than to go back to level 1), playing through content they strategically selected in hopes that more people will buy said content for this purpose.
    And that right there is exactly why just about every mmo out there I find dull. Why waste the SSD or HDD space to play a game the same as any other by yourself. If you really wanna enjoy the journey go get a jrpg and be immersed in a story. Do I solo? Yes. Do I solo forever day after day reaching cap? Hell no, what kind of mind numbing experience is that? I loved The original eq for that. Solo some stuff, but grab a group (balanced group) and go head in for some fight for your life undead action. FF was the same. Sure it was a real pain, but you NEEDED every single person in that group. And they all had to be good at their jobs.

    Depending how the new eq is that could be my main, even with a sub, real games that offer coop are rare anymore. All f2p models have gone for a cap in a week wow mindset.
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  9. #109
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HernandoCortez View Post
    Thanks. I'm looking for some alternatives to DDO since it seems to be going to an all time low lately. Tried SWTOR, RIFT, NW and DIII so far. None was a GREAT game, but I'll keep an eye for some options.
    I would always cast my vote for you to try GW2. It's worth the up front cost IMHO.

  10. #110
    Community Member Ausdoerrt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    I do not recall this. I mean I know of many tossing out 'Free Trials' as they were sinking, and that was a common tactic no doubt, but I don't know of any that just went "Free" as they were going down, that is not to say that did not exist, and they may have been small time things, which would explain that, but, I don't know of any popular or known MMO that went totally F2P as it was crashing and burning.
    Weren't big time or mainstream, but niche and popular definitely. Then again, DDO is very much niche as well. Started with the Korean games. I remember playing RF Online for free at least a year or two before DDO went free. It wasn't mainstream, but well-known and popular, and the regular race-vs-race wars probably gathered more people in one place than DDO has active on all servers simultaneously these days. I'm sure there were many other examples, this is just the one I'm personally familiar with. Anyway, a collection of "small-time things" doing the same thing makes for a trend

    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    I would always cast my vote for you to try GW2. It's worth the up front cost IMHO.
    They also seem to be having sales quite often lately.

    But yeah, it's an excellent investment. The game is only a year old, yet has probably as much content as DDO today. A completely different style of game though, open-world themepark and all.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeslieWest_GuitarGod View Post
    The #1 way Turbine can ensure longevity at this point is producing GOOD new content. Everything should come somewhere after that.
    Correction in bold. Though in any case, they need to develop more resources to content development, that's for sure.

    Hopefully Turbine IS DONE upgrading systems
    I wish they hadn't lost focus during the "quality of life fixes" attempt, which somehow ended up turning into "change ALL the systems". Meanwhile, most of the things broken in 2011 are still annoying us today.

    Ditch as many exploiters and bugs as your team can and you have a working, winning strategy.
    There are always exploiters, they just need to minimize the effects and the spread. To do it, they need:

    - Take exploits seriously (including tangible repercussions and FAST response);
    - Establish and promote zero-tolerance policy;
    - Work on presenting their actions and rebuild a responsive relationship with the player base.

    Otherwise they'll end up aggravating many players regardless of what they do, and even if they do something right.

    Re-Working 3BC is great, especially for us old school DDOers, but refresh projects should always be packaged with some NEW content and all refresh projects should be promoted as secondary to the main course (NEW content).
    GH update was fine and all, but honestly, updates to old content should not be presented as new content at all. They also, hopefully, shouldn't take as long to prepare. I'd rather have them do a down-and-dirty epic update for all raids (once we hit the 30 cap) than re-invent the wheel on a pack-by-pack basis (see GH).


    Quote Originally Posted by Chai
    MMOs now days play like a single player game, with the major difference of being surrounded by other players. Ive leveled to max in three other MMOs while just trying them out, and I also played Skyrim, and each of the MMOs was the same experience as Skyrim was.
    I think you have it backwards here - Bethesda designs their games to play like a single-player MMO, not the other way round. They do little to build a good game, they just design a sandbox, a toolkit, and many hamster wheels, then through the whole buggy mess out and spend twice as much on promotion as they do on development.

    If you play any of the good single-player RPGs, you'll notice that the experience is very different from MMOs, because they can do a lot of the things MMOs can't - particularly non-linear story. Some recent MMO's are trying to emulate this (GW2 with living story), but still fall quite short.
    Last edited by Ausdoerrt; 10-31-2013 at 08:01 AM.
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  11. #111
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausdoerrt View Post
    Weren't big time or mainstream, but niche and popular definitely. Then again, DDO is very much niche as well. Started with the Korean games. I remember playing RF Online for free at least a year or two before DDO went free. It wasn't mainstream, but well-known and popular, and the regular race-vs-race wars probably gathered more people in one place than DDO has active on all servers simultaneously these days. I'm sure there were many other examples, this is just the one I'm personally familiar with. Anyway, a collection of "small-time things" doing the same thing makes for a trend
    I had no idea, I mean I always saw the game throw out "free trials" and such, even "Play to level X, for free" or something, but never just "Sure, it's free now" But I will take your word on that.

    They also seem to be having sales quite often lately.

    But yeah, it's an excellent investment. The game is only a year old, yet has probably as much content as DDO today. A completely different style of game though, open-world themepark and all.
    I have heard about their sales, and I would suggest taking one of them in, given they had 3 million copies sold, which at 50 dollars a copy is 150 million take in on their first year, I would like to think they are doing pretty good. They made mention that they were not going to do expansions, but I think that will hurt them, and I would expect an paid expansion to come out sometime soon to drum up more sales. It only makes sense when you consider that GW, had like 5 expansions.

    As for content, their open world and DE's are just addictive, I thought that after going from EQ to DDO that I would never go back to "Open world" again because of how convenient instance based dungeons are, but GW2 really sets a great mark on how to do open world correctly.

    and while their PvE might be taken as a bit of Everybody wins Care bear, their PvP is more then enough to crush and humble any ego you thought you had, not to mention they really level you up for Small Scale PvP, so there is no ganking low level players, I mean there is still ganking noobs, but the noobs are just as well outfitted and leveled up as the pro's, so it's all matter of skill and build knowledge, (in fact Small PvP is it's own thing, you literally have 2 entirely different builds in the game, one for Open world, and one for PvP) their WvW just does a proxy level up, which while better then nothing is not a fair as the small scale PvP, however, that is still about build and skill, as players even with a level 5 toon against your 80, can pwn you if they can out play you, as it's not "that" much of a difference.

  12. #112
    Community Member Ausdoerrt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    I had no idea, I mean I always saw the game throw out "free trials" and such, even "Play to level X, for free" or something, but never just "Sure, it's free now" But I will take your word on that.
    On RF specifically - they were lowest of the low with unfair artificial grind, ridiculously low drop rates and crafting success rates and an aggressive cash shop to remedy those intentional faults. But the game itself, all areas, races and classes were completely free.

    Though if I remember right, Anarchy Online did it way earlier, and ages before DDO? And it's probably still one of the most famous MMOs to date.

    I have heard about their sales, and I would suggest taking one of them in, given they had 3 million copies sold, which at 50 dollars a copy is 150 million take in on their first year, I would like to think they are doing pretty good. They made mention that they were not going to do expansions, but I think that will hurt them, and I would expect an paid expansion to come out sometime soon to drum up more sales. It only makes sense when you consider that GW, had like 5 expansions.
    Yeah, I saw a 40% off sale the day after I bought it :P They may not be doing expansions, but they do have regular content updates. Even if they decide to do one, will probably not be for another while - I imagine most players still have enough to do in the game.

    And if population is any indication, then they're doing quite well. Then again, I chose one of the busiest servers on purpose. Some of the mid-level areas feel a bit empty, though.

    As for content, their open world and DE's are just addictive, I thought that after going from EQ to DDO that I would never go back to "Open world" again because of how convenient instance based dungeons are, but GW2 really sets a great mark on how to do open world correctly.
    Reminds me a lot of the single-player game Kingdoms of Amalur, especially with the emphasis on 100% map exploration. But yeah, so far it seems like they're going for smooth progression and silly addicting activities rather than grind or obvious hamster wheels. Mind you, they're still hamster wheels, but don't feel overbearing. Exploring for all the random bits is still fun and at times mildly challenging.

    and while their PvE might be taken as a bit of Everybody wins Care bear, their PvP is more then enough to crush and humble any ego you thought you had, not to mention they really level you up for Small Scale PvP, so there is no ganking low level players, I mean there is still ganking noobs, but the noobs are just as well outfitted and leveled up as the pro's, so it's all matter of skill and build knowledge, (in fact Small PvP is it's own thing, you literally have 2 entirely different builds in the game, one for Open world, and one for PvP) their WvW just does a proxy level up, which while better then nothing is not a fair as the small scale PvP, however, that is still about build and skill, as players even with a level 5 toon against your 80, can pwn you if they can out play you, as it's not "that" much of a difference.
    I'd say they have the best scaling system I've seen in any game, let alone MMO. It's got the drawbacks of all scaling systems, but I think they got the balance mostly right. (Talking more about the PvE scaling, as I haven't tried much of PvP yet).
    Last edited by Ausdoerrt; 10-31-2013 at 09:32 AM.
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  13. #113
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausdoerrt View Post
    I think you have it backwards here - Bethesda designs their games to play like a single-player MMO, not the other way round. They do little to build a good game, they just design a sandbox, a toolkit, and many hamster wheels, then through the whole buggy mess out and spend twice as much on promotion as they do on development.

    If you play any of the good single-player RPGs, you'll notice that the experience is very different from MMOs, because they can do a lot of the things MMOs can't - particularly non-linear story. Some recent MMO's are trying to emulate this (GW2 with living story), but still fall quite short.
    Youve reinforced my point quite nicely here, by saying that in single player games you can do non linear story while in MMOs this is now harder. MMOS are actually beginning to be designed MORE like single player games of the past, then current single player games are. The massive anvil of irony we get hit with when realizing this, is that its very odd that MMOs feel this extreme of a need to cater to solo players, and yet, surround those solo players with tens of thousands of other solo players.

    MMOs never used to require staying on a linear story line. In fact, the early ones didnt require people to stay on a story line at all. In EQ, I could just run to zones that had mobs I could kill for Xp and kill them repeatedly in a chain pulling group. Or I could follow the story, read all the text each NPC says, do what they tell me to do etc.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  14. #114
    Community Member Ausdoerrt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Youve reinforced my point quite nicely here, by saying that in single player games you can do non linear story while in MMOs this is now harder. MMOS are actually beginning to be designed MORE like single player games of the past, then current single player games are. The massive anvil of irony we get hit with when realizing this, is that its very odd that MMOs feel this extreme of a need to cater to solo players, and yet, surround those solo players with tens of thousands of other solo players.
    Including elements like non-linear storyline or world changes/events has nothing to do with catering to solo players; it makes the game better for everyone regardless of their preferences. The efforts are in their infancy, but have potential to grow into something bigger and better that could change online gaming experience significantly 20-30 years down the line.

    MMOs never used to require staying on a linear story line. In fact, the early ones didnt require people to stay on a story line at all. In EQ, I could just run to zones that had mobs I could kill for Xp and kill them repeatedly in a chain pulling group. Or I could follow the story, read all the text each NPC says, do what they tell me to do etc.
    Two words: competition and evolution. Most arcade games also did not "require" a story or complex mechanics at first, but eventually the medium developed. Same is happening to MMOs as a genre. This is required because the players no longer fall for the basic hamster wheels as much as in the past, and the novelty of "playing with lots of people online" has worn off as well. And because there are so many alternatives now, if one game fails to evolve, then the players will flock to another that looks better, which is increasingly easy to do also thanks to F2P.

    Besides, RPGs aren't just a ruleset or a sandbox, RPGs are first and foremost an interactive story - which is insanely difficult to do when hundreds of thousands of gamers want to be "the hero". GW2 is a step in that direction, though - and slightly away from stale, unoriginal, and linear experiences you're talking about. Nor does the game require you to follow it, although you'd miss out on some bonuses.
    Last edited by Ausdoerrt; 10-31-2013 at 11:21 AM.
    "People are stupid; given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. ... People's heads are full of knowledge, facts, and beliefs, and most of it is false, yet they think it all true." Terry Goodkind

  15. #115
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausdoerrt View Post
    Including elements like non-linear storyline or world changes/events has nothing to do with catering to solo players; it makes the game better for everyone regardless of their preferences. The efforts are in their infancy, but have potential to grow into something bigger and better that could change online gaming experience significantly 20-30 years down the line.
    It has to do with it in the context of the current batch of new MMO releases, because most of them play like a linear story line and the most efficient way to level is solo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ausdoerrt View Post
    Two words: competition and evolution. Most arcade games also did not "require" a story or complex mechanics at first, but eventually the medium developed. Same is happening to MMOs as a genre. This is required because the players no longer fall for the basic hamster wheels as much as in the past, and the novelty of "playing with lots of people online" has worn off as well. And because there are so many alternatives now, if one game fails to evolve, then the players will flock to another that looks better, which is increasingly easy to do also thanks to F2P.

    Besides, RPGs aren't just a ruleset or a sandbox, RPGs are first and foremost an interactive story - which is insanely difficult to do when hundreds of thousands of gamers want to be "the hero". GW2 is a step in that direction, though - and slightly away from stale, unoriginal, and linear experiences you're talking about. Nor does the game require you to follow it, although you'd miss out on some bonuses.
    The MMOs who will keep the most players long term will incorporate linear stories, but not require people to adhere to them where there is only one way to play through the game. The older MMOs were actually better than the new ones in this regard.

    Players fall for the same hamster wheels they used to, they simply dont have the time to invest in grinding it out, so after implementing the hamster wheel, the current crop of games implemented ways to pay to circumvent the grind. Many also fell into the trap of feeling entitled to the best loot in the game even when they dont grind as much, which we never used to see alot of in older MMOs, and they are willing to pay for the loot, or pay to circumvent sizable amounts of the grind to get said loot.

    If the novelty of playing with lots of people online is gone, these companies would be cranking about more skrim type games, and less MMOs. The "surrounded by lots of people online" novelty still has a purpose. The oddity is that the MMOs are the ones trying to cater to soloers, when the soloers could be playing skyrim, and those wanting to group could be playing MMOs. Companies understand that the best way to keep the core players online is the players building and maintaining player friendships. Most MMOs have seen peopel come and go, but theres a core group in each one that stays around and keeps the wood burning, and makes that their main game. Those are the folks keeping EQ up and running currently for instance. A game that had 1.5m subs in its hayday now still has just over 100k folks, still there. There have been mulriple surveys done on this over the years and its been found that the big reason people stay playing long after the new game smell wears off, is the people.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  16. #116
    Community Member Ausdoerrt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    It has to do with it in the context of the current batch of new MMO releases, because most of them play like a linear story line and the most efficient way to level is solo.
    You are correct about certain recent releases. Although that has always been the case, it's more noticeable now since these new releases are rather limited in size (heavy instancing) and volume of content. It's less apparent in open-world games. DDO is the same really, except it's many small linear stories rather than an overarching one.

    The MMOs who will keep the most players long term will incorporate linear stories, but not require people to adhere to them where there is only one way to play through the game. The older MMOs were actually better than the new ones in this regard.
    I'm yet to see a game that requires you to follow a certain story. Closest I can think of is the way games like DDO or NW structure their quest chains.

    Players fall for the same hamster wheels they used to, they simply dont have the time to invest in grinding it out, so after implementing the hamster wheel, the current crop of games implemented ways to pay to circumvent the grind. Many also fell into the trap of feeling entitled to the best loot in the game even when they dont grind as much, which we never used to see alot of in older MMOs, and they are willing to pay for the loot, or pay to circumvent sizable amounts of the grind to get said loot.
    I think there are more players who are aware of the wheels, though. And fewer willing to give up RL to pursue them.

    If the novelty of playing with lots of people online is gone, these companies would be cranking about more skrim type games, and less MMOs. The "surrounded by lots of people online" novelty still has a purpose. The oddity is that the MMOs are the ones trying to cater to soloers, when the soloers could be playing skyrim, and those wanting to group could be playing MMOs. Companies understand that the best way to keep the core players online is the players building and maintaining player friendships. Most MMOs have seen peopel come and go, but theres a core group in each one that stays around and keeps the wood burning, and makes that their main game. Those are the folks keeping EQ up and running currently for instance. A game that had 1.5m subs in its hayday now still has just over 100k folks, still there. There have been mulriple surveys done on this over the years and its been found that the big reason people stay playing long after the new game smell wears off, is the people.
    You're basically describing one of the ways in which the genre has developed/is developing. The fact remains that one needs to make the game more compelling now than before for it to have the staying power. And that people will hardly ever play a game SOLELY because it has a multiplayer aspect, unlike in the past.
    "People are stupid; given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. ... People's heads are full of knowledge, facts, and beliefs, and most of it is false, yet they think it all true." Terry Goodkind

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausdoerrt View Post
    You are correct about certain recent releases. Although that has always been the case, it's more noticeable now since these new releases are rather limited in size (heavy instancing) and volume of content. It's less apparent in open-world games. DDO is the same really, except it's many small linear stories rather than an overarching one.
    Some of them didnt even start being developed as an MMO, but they turned into MMOs when companies saw that other MMOs were being developed which play like the single player game they are developing plays.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ausdoerrt View Post
    I'm yet to see a game that requires you to follow a certain story. Closest I can think of is the way games like DDO or NW structure their quest chains.
    If you take the foundry out of NW, then it gives you few options where you can go after youve outgrown one zone, and is very linear. Some level ranges have overlaps where theres more than one option, but compared to other MMOs, where i can sit in a field and kill mobs while completely ignoring any pre set plot whatsoever, its night and day.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ausdoerrt View Post
    I think there are more players who are aware of the wheels, though. And fewer willing to give up RL to pursue them.
    Right, even the young WOW players from 2005 are in college years now. Players dont have 12-16 hours a day to devote to building one toon up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ausdoerrt View Post
    You're basically describing one of the ways in which the genre has developed/is developing. The fact remains that one needs to make the game more compelling now than before for it to have the staying power. And that people will hardly ever play a game SOLELY because it has a multiplayer aspect, unlike in the past.
    Those people still exist, and have become the core players who stay playing the same game. Due to F2P, the rest who like to solo, or are playing with small groups of RL friends, will skip around and try game after game, and once it gets boring, bounce to the next game. They are playing MMOs like they are single player games, with their friends on LAN. The other huge number of players onthe server dont influence their decision to stay or leave. (this is btw one of the reasons I get annoyed when someone provides feedback and people reply with "if you dont like it leave then" - this doesnt work with core players, as they want to stay.)
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausdoerrt View Post
    Including elements like non-linear storyline or world changes/events has nothing to do with catering to solo players; it makes the game better for everyone regardless of their preferences. The efforts are in their infancy, but have potential to grow into something bigger and better that could change online gaming experience significantly 20-30 years down the line.



    Two words: competition and evolution. Most arcade games also did not "require" a story or complex mechanics at first, but eventually the medium developed. Same is happening to MMOs as a genre. This is required because the players no longer fall for the basic hamster wheels as much as in the past, and the novelty of "playing with lots of people online" has worn off as well. And because there are so many alternatives now, if one game fails to evolve, then the players will flock to another that looks better, which is increasingly easy to do also thanks to F2P.

    Besides, RPGs aren't just a ruleset or a sandbox, RPGs are first and foremost an interactive story - which is insanely difficult to do when hundreds of thousands of gamers want to be "the hero". GW2 is a step in that direction, though - and slightly away from stale, unoriginal, and linear experiences you're talking about. Nor does the game require you to follow it, although you'd miss out on some bonuses.
    I had noticed that, most older MMO's pretty much sucked for story line, I mean they had their own lore, but the players were not a part of it, they were not part of the game, just just existed within in it, with no real reason to be there beyond randomly kills stuff to acquire loot, power, to which all they could do with it was beat their chest at how great they were compared to everyone else.

    In today's game, players want to be a part of their world, they want to belong, and want a reason for playing beyond a number next to their bank account and a full up inventory space.

    So MMO's have had to evolve to meet that, and that is a good thing. That was a huge draw for me in GW2, when I started playing, being called "Slayer" it made me feel like I was someone special, someone important to the game design, like I belonged. It was well played.

  19. #119
    Community Member Ausdoerrt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    If you take the foundry out of NW, then it gives you few options where you can go after youve outgrown one zone, and is very linear. Some level ranges have overlaps where theres more than one option, but compared to other MMOs, where i can sit in a field and kill mobs while completely ignoring any pre set plot whatsoever, its night and day.
    While leveling my main to 60 in NW, I've seen maybe 60-70% of the story content. I did maybe 3-4 foundry quests on that toon. So you're not being entirely fair - or perhaps you didn't try the game long enough.

    Though to be fair, you're right to an extent, because NW 1) caters to players who like to level FAST, and 2) rather than provide story alternatives, it provides gameplay alternatives; you can level through solo/story content, through foundry, through PvP, or through PvE group content. It's still good variety IMO. Also, many of the later-game areas are hardly effectively soloable.

    Also, since when is grinding the same mob over and over (the metaphorical "killing boars for two weeks" popularized by South Park) is a good thing anyway??

    Those people still exist, and have become the core players who stay playing the same game. Due to F2P, the rest who like to solo, or are playing with small groups of RL friends, will skip around and try game after game, and once it gets boring, bounce to the next game. They are playing MMOs like they are single player games, with their friends on LAN. The other huge number of players onthe server dont influence their decision to stay or leave. (this is btw one of the reasons I get annoyed when someone provides feedback and people reply with "if you dont like it leave then" - this doesnt work with core players, as they want to stay.)
    IMO, the so-called "core players" are a constantly shrinking group. Even hardcore gamers are starting to do more than one game simultaneously rather than devote all their attention to one. And yes F2P is a factor, because one does not feel compelled to "get the most" out of that sub money.

    You are, once again, exaggerating with regard to player types. For example, I do not live to game, to raid or to min/max. I also get bored quickly when there's no one around in an MMO. I don't think I'm the only one, and in fact I think I'm probably part of the "in the middle" group between the two extremes you emphasize, i.e. the ~90% of MMO players on the bell curve.
    "People are stupid; given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. ... People's heads are full of knowledge, facts, and beliefs, and most of it is false, yet they think it all true." Terry Goodkind

  20. #120
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausdoerrt View Post
    While leveling my main to 60 in NW, I've seen maybe 60-70% of the story content. I did maybe 3-4 foundry quests on that toon. So you're not being entirely fair - or perhaps you didn't try the game long enough.
    Nope, i overleveled content, just like you did. There are a few forkes in the road with overlapping xp level ranges where you can go to a few different places, but the quest chains in each and every one of those places are linear, making you run the beginning quests before the other ones open up. Example: Do you want that bag in the grave yard zone? You have to run every_single_other quest out there to get it (unless you cheeze it, which there was a way to do for a while). Yoo dont get to simply walk in there, get the quest that gives you the bag etc.....then after doing all that, it cant be repeated for the same reward. It was a linear plot, able to be rewarded once for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ausdoerrt View Post
    Though to be fair, you're right to an extent, because NW 1) caters to players who like to level FAST, and 2) rather than provide story alternatives, it provides gameplay alternatives; you can level through solo/story content, through foundry, through PvP, or through PvE group content. It's still good variety IMO. Also, many of the later-game areas are hardly effectively soloable.
    Yes, the idea is to get peopel to level fast so they catch alt-itis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ausdoerrt View Post
    Also, since when is grinding the same mob over and over (the metaphorical "killing boars for two weeks" popularized by South Park) is a good thing anyway??
    Its a matter of opinion. We have seen that if you give people all options, all options will be iused. Heck we have people here in DDO who will kill the same priestess 75 times a night for 2 weeks straight on each toon to grind epic destinies. Im looking at it from a pure business standpoint in saying theres no reason to only cater to one type of player when you can cater to them all in the same game. EQ had tons of powergamers and tons of casuals. So does WOW. Once its demonstrated that all playstyle types can be catered to, they all become paying customers.

    Besides, in some games, good loot can drop off random mobs. in EQ, the best haste item through 2 eras of the game dropped off random froglock krups in old sebilis. It was the second best only by 2% for the next 3 eras of the game, and the best was orders of magnitude tougher to get.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ausdoerrt View Post
    IMO, the so-called "core players" are a constantly shrinking group. Even hardcore gamers are starting to do more than one game simultaneously rather than devote all their attention to one. And yes F2P is a factor, because one does not feel compelled to "get the most" out of that sub money.

    You are, once again, exaggerating with regard to player types. For example, I do not live to game, to raid or to min/max. I also get bored quickly when there's no one around in an MMO. I don't think I'm the only one, and in fact I think I'm probably part of the "in the middle" group between the two extremes you emphasize, i.e. the ~90% of MMO players on the bell curve.
    Nope, the core gamers arent a shrinking group at all. Every game so far has its core gamers who stay because they like that game and the people they play with.

    The group of gamers who game like they drive to work, impatient and entitled to be in front of everyone else at no extra cost, are increasing in size. This is why companies are catering to them more and more. They are going to get their core gamers anyway, so they build their games to suck the solo players in and get those who will invest money rather than time on the hook. Even if those people hang around for two years and leave, they spent money on the game when they were there. The current MMO market is a huge revolving door of people who will bounce from game to game, with each successful game having its solid core of players who may try other games from time to time, but stay with the one they like.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

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