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  1. #81
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    I am against them redesigning their game in order to make the grind more irritating in order to get people to pay to circumvent the grind, and ive been saying this for years now.
    You have been against them selling stuff in the store period, regardless of what they do to the game.

  2. #82
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    The question is only loaded, because you cant answer it either way without me immediately being able to cite post after post where you took the opposite stance.
    That would be the definition of a loaded question, Kudos. When you ask a real question, in a legitimate manner, I'll answer it.

  3. #83
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Basically youre completely willing to change sides when it suits you.
    Nope that's an outright lie, and you should be called a liar for saying that, and feel bad about it.

    Normally id overlook that but the minute you attempted to call my posting history into question, you wrote a verbal check your own posting history doesn't have the integral strength to cash.
    Knock yourself out, so far, all you have put out as been tin foil hats, and downright wrong information.

  4. #84
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    You have been against them selling stuff in the store period, regardless of what they do to the game.
    Nope. Each time you repeat this you further indicate your lack of understanding of my stance on the issue. Nice on the changing of the topic the minute you were cornered. E for effort.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  5. #85
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    That would be the definition of a loaded question, Kudos. When you ask a real question, in a legitimate manner, I'll answer it.
    It is a real question, asked in a legit manner. You cant answer it without waffling, because you've done a complete 180 on your own posting history on the same issue 4 times now, and the minute you answer the question, ill be showing you the multitude of times you contradicted yourself on that answer. The only reason the question is loaded is due to your own flip flopping.

    Check,

    Mate.

    /owned.

    .
    Last edited by Chai; 10-29-2013 at 09:38 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  6. #86
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    It is a real question, asked in a legit manner.
    No, we have already established that it's a loaded question, both by me and then again by you.

  7. #87
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    you've done a complete 180 on your own posting history on the same issue 4 times now
    Provide quotes or links, otherwise, this is lying, and we all know the forums rules about lying about another player.

    Check, Mate.

  8. #88
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Provide quotes or links, otherwise, this is lying, and we all know the forums rules about lying about another player.

    Check, Mate.
    You have no pieces left, and youre in a corner and cant even move due to the fact that you wont even answer the question due to the full understanding that youll be crushed under a proverbial anvil of your own posts which contradict your current answer.

    Welcome to ignore. Refrain from quoting me in the future and instigating with personal attacks. Im asking you this nicely, but only once. You had your chance to defend your own posting history after attempting to question mine, and you blew it. If you cant back up your own posts, you have no clout to question anyone elses.

    Ill simply report all future attempts to instigate.
    Last edited by Chai; 10-29-2013 at 09:53 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  9. #89
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    Go flamewaring w/ eachother in PMs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Originally Posted by Random Person #2 View Post
    People who exploit bugs in code are cheaters cheaters cheaters. And they are big fat ****yheads too.

  10. #90
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    You have no pieces left, and youre in a corner and cant even move due to the fact that you wont even answer the question due to the full understanding that youll be crushed under a proverbial anvil of your own posts which contradict your current answer.

    Welcome to ignore. Refrain from quoting me in the future and instigating with personal attacks. Im asking you this nicely, but only once. You had your chance to defend your own posting history after attempting to question mine, and you blew it. If you cant back up your own posts, you have no clout to question anyone elses.

    Ill simply report all future attempts to instigate.
    About this time, you would spout something like:

    You gave up when you lacked refutation to what I stated or possessed the ability to support your own stand, Most of you posted didn't even directly address what I said. Now here we are years later, still fighting the same fight, and nothing has changed.

    /owned.

    Good Bye Chai.

    But make no mistake, I will still warn people about your misuse of terms, until you start to use them correctly.

  11. #91
    Community Member goodspeed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausdoerrt View Post
    It is. In return, however, you never have to pay for content updates. It's been called "buy to play" or "free to purchase" etc., though under the broad definition of "free to play", i.e. lack of a monthly sub, it does fit, same as DDO does.

    It's a system similar to DDO but also the polar opposite. It's also, in the end, much cheaper for the player. I personally don't consider DDO to be a "true" F2P game either, as 90% of the content (and 100% of the content anyone cares about) must be purchased. TP gain from favor is so slow/miniscule that it can't be considered a real "free" option except for most hardcore farmers. This is how the two are similar.

    Still, in GW you pay once to enter, and rest is convenience. In DDO, you continuously pay for content AND for increasingly "inconvenient" convenience. This is how the two are different.
    I never really had a problem with paying for content. I could use, it, keep it. It's games that try to nickle and dime you like those lil dirty sign holders at a store parking lot that I feel are a damn lie. Mostly any sony online entertainment game. Charging you to buy tokens to use an auction house, limiting speech, charging you to equip armor of a certain tier, charging you to use spells of a certain tier.

    Paying for something is fine. I have char slots, I have classes, I have what content I wanted (I still don't own the high road pack) But paying to sell stuff on the ah? To limit hour to hour play time in any way, ya (edited) that.

    And I can't see wow at it's core representing... lets say a type of land somewhere in the world, not beating the horse for every penny that will fall.
    Through avarice, evil smiles; through insanity, it sings.

  12. #92
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    ^ Your inability to let someone else have the last word Ungood really is your undoing. When you respond to a harsh, rather spot on critique with what could be loosely summarized as "I'm rubber you're glue" and end it with some bad posturing it just makes Chai look like he crushed you.

    Personally, I don't really care whose right but as far as appearances go, you just validated his point.

    To mix our metaphors (because it's fun), you thought you had checkmate but Chai just scored the winning basket from downtown with 0.2 on the shot clock.

  13. #93
    Community Member Singular's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erethizon View Post
    That's an interesting perspective because I have always thought WoW was to blame for the trend of MMO's becoming so easy. WoW was the first major MMO to make the leveling grind so fast that the point of a game was no longer to level. They seemed to really embrace this moronic idea that leveling was just an annoyance and the "real" game was sitting at the level cap trying to pointlessly acquire gear that would be obsolete in the next update. The surprise is how many people bought into it. Thanks to WoW we now have games with rapid leveling and nothing to do but grind gear or PvP at the end both of which are complete wastes of time. Gear is easy to grind in all games. All you have to do is wait for the next expansion and then do a few quests. You will immediately have better gear than all those morons that spent months grinding the old end-game for gear.

    The point of MMO's used to be the journey as you leveled. Now, thanks largely to WoW, it is sitting at the level cap getting soon-to-be-obsolete gear while complaining about lack of content. It used to be only the most extreme players sat around at the level cap complaining about the lack of content (and we understood why they ran out because they played 40+ hours a week). Now games are made so that even the people that play 4 hours a week run out of content and are forced to sit around at the level cap (or simply leave the game never to return as I always do). I now have to play MMO's going out of my way to avoid gaining experience whenever possible just so I can enjoy the game for more than a few weeks. Experience has become the enemy since it is gained so easily I cannot help but reach the cap and be forced to quit. At least TRing gives me a way to continue to permanently improve my character without feeling like my time is totally wasted (which is how I feel when playing a character incapable of personal improvement because he is stuck at a level cap).
    Wow, I'm right there with you on this one. I guess that the TR system of DDO keeps the cycle going. It's too bad that leveling itself isn't the experience - it really was when I first started, only b/c I didn't know the TR tricks to fast leveling.

    Why do we have to blame WOW for this, though? Can't we blame designers who take their inspiration from WOW? Anyways, that other DnD clone-game...uh...can't recall the name...reports that they're building a DnD game that will take 2.5 years to get your character to cap, and that not everyone will be able to do it. Pathfinder! That one.

  14. #94

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    The title of the OP is definitely misleading. But there is a grain of truth within.

    DDO was one of the first, and in my opinion THE first major subscription MMO title to successfully turn Free to play in the United States.

    Here you go-->

    DDO goes F2P in June 2009.

    Age Of Conan: Hyborian Adventures goes F2P in November 2009.

    Lord of the Rings goes F2P June 2010.

    Champions Online goes F2P November 2010.

    Heroes of Newerth goes F2P July 2011.

    Star Wars: The Old Republic goes F2P August 2012. ($150 MILLION to make this game)

    Rift goes F2P June 2013. (after practically swearing on a stack of Bibles for YEARS they would never touch F2P - then did and saw a huge spike in playerbase volume)

    Naturally, Turbine was a pioneer in taking the risk to alter their established subscription model. The risk meant the end of DDO and potentially bankruptcy (especially with those blood sucking Atari vampire$ at work). Failure would have meant even a substantially faster decline had they stayed the course. The result of course was deemed a rousing success, by not only Turbine, but the majority of the MMO industry, and I mean the Big Dogs.

    Turbine without question should be credited with saving itself, and putting subs on the board faster than they ever did before, and it dispersed real $$ into their coffers when everyone else expected the playerbase decline to spell the end of the road for DDO. Clearly Warner Brothers saw it this way, as they repeated the practice with their #1 cash cow LoTRO. Both games are still kickin quite a few years later... both with a visible future ahead of them.

    So Turbine gets the credit for converting one of the very first full sub titles to a hybrid F2P model in America... but there is one other major inspiration, Runescape. RuneScape holds the Guiness Book of World Records in playerbase volume with ~10 million active accounts per month, and ~200 million registered accounts total. It was first launched in 2001.

    So, you dont need to be Benjamin Graham or John Maynard Keynes (2 world-renowned economists) to see that taking a sub game free to play is a brilliant way to grow and retain your playerbase over a long period of time. Expect more titles to follow suit as well as others with the plan to go F2P when funds start to dwindle past a certain point, but decided upon before the game even launches.

    Now as far as DDO slays WoW, thats of course a stretch. A more realistic statement is "Turbine educates Blizzard..." or "Blizzard learns from Turbine" (and a few other companies of course). Isn't it funny after all these years, even with two games with drastically different playerbase volumes... its clear that the teacher has definitely gotten schooled by the student!

    So yeah so even though I believe my statement is more accurate, your title much sweeter (and funny) to read!!!
    Last edited by LeslieWest_GuitarGod; 10-30-2013 at 02:47 AM.


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  15. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hafeal View Post
    When you drop $111 million revenue in a 7 month period, I think that is being considered, by Blizzard, as more than routine attrition and re-ups process. I am certain with a 10 year history, they are aware of drops and re-sub patterns. This certainly appears to be a fundamental change. The question for Blizzard becomes, why is it occurring and can it be reversed? And is f2p the answer to question?
    It cannot be reversed. They simply considered changing with the times was more profitable than piking Reasons to go f2p for Blizzard is short term would boost the playerbase. In the longterm it would make it easier for those who leave to come back. Also going f2p dips into its main competitor, which is the entire f2p market. Even 1% penetration into this f2p market means millions of fresh new Washingtons...
    Last edited by LeslieWest_GuitarGod; 10-30-2013 at 02:36 AM.


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  16. #96
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erethizon View Post
    That's an interesting perspective because I have always thought WoW was to blame for the trend of MMO's becoming so easy. WoW was the first major MMO to make the leveling grind so fast that the point of a game was no longer to level. They seemed to really embrace this moronic idea that leveling was just an annoyance and the "real" game was sitting at the level cap trying to pointlessly acquire gear that would be obsolete in the next update. The surprise is how many people bought into it. Thanks to WoW we now have games with rapid leveling and nothing to do but grind gear or PvP at the end both of which are complete wastes of time. Gear is easy to grind in all games. All you have to do is wait for the next expansion and then do a few quests. You will immediately have better gear than all those morons that spent months grinding the old end-game for gear.
    What WOW did was genius at a business level and annoying as hell from a player perspective. Well before their MMO launched, they invited all of the high end raiding guilds in other MMOs to give them what they wanted, then they listened. People in EQ1 were complaining up a storm that having one world boss a week per server in the same open and contested instance was not allowing fast enough loot drops for everyone who could kill that content. WOW put instanced raiding in their game. EQ would attempt to do this later on but it was too late, as they didn't listen until WOW did it, and pulled most of the endgame guilds out of most other games to play WOW. The other things players in other MMOs complained about were that the penalties for dying were too harsh, and the XP totals needed to get one level were too large. WOW responded by making dying basically an equipment repair bill (this started a major trend) and making leveling to cap super easy (also started a major trend).

    What WOW found out was that most MMO players in that era level a toon in the same respect that they drive to work. Impatient to get to their destination to say the least, to the point where they will have "MMO road rage" at anyone that causes anything to happen that makes them level slower, like die in a quest. Leveling was done best solo or duo, in the company of one other player, where in EQ and other games it was done faster in a full group chain pulling mobs.

    Quote Originally Posted by erethizon View Post
    The point of MMO's used to be the journey as you leveled. Now, thanks largely to WoW, it is sitting at the level cap getting soon-to-be-obsolete gear while complaining about lack of content. It used to be only the most extreme players sat around at the level cap complaining about the lack of content (and we understood why they ran out because they played 40+ hours a week). Now games are made so that even the people that play 4 hours a week run out of content and are forced to sit around at the level cap (or simply leave the game never to return as I always do). I now have to play MMO's going out of my way to avoid gaining experience whenever possible just so I can enjoy the game for more than a few weeks. Experience has become the enemy since it is gained so easily I cannot help but reach the cap and be forced to quit. At least TRing gives me a way to continue to permanently improve my character without feeling like my time is totally wasted (which is how I feel when playing a character incapable of personal improvement because he is stuck at a level cap).
    MMOs now days play like a single player game, with the major difference of being surrounded by other players. Ive leveled to max in three other MMOs while just trying them out, and I also played Skyrim, and each of the MMOs was the same experience as Skyrim was. The minute you start talking about forced cooperation in an MMO game forum, you are met with sneering disagreement about how my cleric isn't your babysitter, and how each player absolutely needs to be doing the killing rather than keeping everyone else propped up with buffs or heals. Its amazing how many people insist on logging into a game where they are surrounded by tens of thousands of other players, simply so they can solo their way to cap as quickly as possible. Any obstacle will not be regarded as an acceptable challenge, but as an annoyance which wastes their time, and avoided altogether, to the point that if they are required to do it once per life to flag for something else, it gets complained about until the devs crucible it out of the game.

    TR is simply another hamster wheel which allows players to level the same toon rather than play alts. It does have the illusion that it makes your toon a tad better each life, which in technicality it does, but the reality of that situation is it serves no purpose, because building a toon that can stun or insta kill at endgame is pointless as there is nothing to do once you get there, and there are first life builds that can handle that content just as easily anyhow - they just do massive burst damage rather than specialize in DC. Turbine realizes that this is the only real "endgame" left so they are attempting to leverage TRing to make more money in the store, but to do so they have to nerf the ability to get the heart of wood free in game, to that of an undesired endgame grind (when these folks want nothing more than to go back to level 1), playing through content they strategically selected in hopes that more people will buy said content for this purpose.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  17. #97
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xianio View Post
    To mix our metaphors (because it's fun), you thought you had checkmate but Chai just scored the winning basket from downtown with 0.2 on the shot clock.
    Game clock.

    I'm haven't been following the conversation, but I'll definitely join in the mixing of metaphors;

    He got him in an arm bar and everyone expected him to tap out, but then his opponent did a reverse triple axel that won over even the Russian judge. He went and stood on the winner's podium, was thrown a bouquet of flowers, and awaited his gold medal, but then his opponent swallowed the 57th hot dog to take the title.

  18. #98
    Community Member Ausdoerrt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by goodspeed View Post
    I never really had a problem with paying for content. I could use, it, keep it. It's games that try to nickle and dime you like those lil dirty sign holders at a store parking lot that I feel are a damn lie. Mostly any sony online entertainment game. Charging you to buy tokens to use an auction house, limiting speech, charging you to equip armor of a certain tier, charging you to use spells of a certain tier.

    Paying for something is fine. I have char slots, I have classes, I have what content I wanted (I still don't own the high road pack) But paying to sell stuff on the ah? To limit hour to hour play time in any way, ya (edited) that.

    And I can't see wow at it's core representing... lets say a type of land somewhere in the world, not beating the horse for every penny that will fall.
    I'm not saying it's a problem, I'm just factually describing what the systems are and how they compare. If I had to give an opinion, my two favorite monetization systems so far are GW2 (buy once and never pay again unless you want the rather unnecessary cosmetics and convenience) and NW (completely free with aggressive but non-P2W cash shop). Both systems also have an in-game to cash shop currency conversion.

    But yeah, I hear you on the nickle-diming... Charging you for rare item upgrades and crafting materials, limiting how often you can run raids, closing off core races and classes, best character upgrades store only... oh wait. And what was that about having to buy into the AH?
    "People are stupid; given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. ... People's heads are full of knowledge, facts, and beliefs, and most of it is false, yet they think it all true." Terry Goodkind

  19. #99
    Community Member YoureDown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hafeal View Post
    ~snip~
    Well, DDO did have some kind of influence, as I recall totalbiscuit praising the game's F2P system back in the day and calling for other games to adapt DDO's system. that video had a ton of views. BUT, you have to remember, DDO is only one of many many F2P games, some better than DDO according to an amount of people, some worse, again, by some people's standards. I think it was more due to RIFT going F2P, SW:TOR going f2p (and failing horribly), and other AAA MMO's going F2P. DDO's community is considered not that big in MMO standards, but we sure are a dedicated bunch, and because of that I think DDOs influence is weaker, since we arent many and we dont leave the game that easily (Remember all the bugs? glitches not working quests closures etc? Yeah we're still playing, even though there's competition!)
    If you are seeing this the chance of there being a pony reaction gif up above is 73.42619%. In case there is none, please notify me and I will deliver a pastel colored equine to this thread.

  20. #100
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YoureDown View Post
    Well, DDO did have some kind of influence, as I recall totalbiscuit praising the game's F2P system back in the day and calling for other games to adapt DDO's system. that video had a ton of views. BUT, you have to remember, DDO is only one of many many F2P games, some better than DDO according to an amount of people, some worse, again, by some people's standards. I think it was more due to RIFT going F2P, SW:TOR going f2p (and failing horribly), and other AAA MMO's going F2P. DDO's community is considered not that big in MMO standards, but we sure are a dedicated bunch, and because of that I think DDOs influence is weaker, since we arent many and we dont leave the game that easily (Remember all the bugs? glitches not working quests closures etc? Yeah we're still playing, even though there's competition!)
    The big thing to remember here is not that DDO F2P (There were many F2P games before DDO) it was that DDO was AFAIK the first game to change it's payment model mid stride, going from Sub to Micro-Transaction, all other games were built from the ground up to follow a specific model of payment and thus better designed in that venture, however DDO showed the world that a game does not need to be stuck in one method, they are also the only game with a sub/one time purchase deal, this also setting the stage for other games to move along the lines with less fear. Basically Turbine made a jump into the Unknown, by swapping how it sold it's game, and not only did it swim, it rocked out of the pool of debt, and flew. Other games saw this turn around and realized that they were not chained to their current payment model, and that alone opened doors for them.

    Turbines (DDO's) vast success in the venture made it very lucrative to follow them with the hope to get the same responses, so many games have opted to change their method and have even been besieged by their potential customers to change their method if they want to attract them, and because now everyone knows it can be done, they have come to expect that it will be done for them.

    WOW, however, runs the risk of opening their doors to pretty much an influx of mindless hate mongers that at one time would not have gone there because while they may hate the game, they don;t hate it enough to pay to troll it, a F2P model invites this kind of behavior, so, there is that risk as well, this can be noted by the vast increase of trolling and bots that hit GW2 on their free trial week ends.

    There are always pro's and con's to each one, for WoW, the biggest con at this point is the unlikeness of pulling a profit from the F2P market, as WoW would need to pull 53% of the paying F2P player base to their game to recover money, that is highly unlikely to happen, and knowing that, I don't believe that WoW has the continual pull to do that, while they would get an influx by players to see what it was all about, I just don't see them really pulling in over fifty percent of the players who partake in F2P games.

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