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  1. #21
    Community Member Steevye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zachski View Post
    Imagine being a bard who never gets a chance to buff the entire group because instead of waiting for everyone to enter, people charge ahead as soon as they get into the instance, leading to them being stretched out. Lots of impatient players, especially early on - and for characters who can't solo, that beginning period actually takes a lot longer to get through than characters who CAN solo.
    Bards can run and buff, but even that's moot if the other 5 people are halfway thru an instance by the time your loading screen ends.

    I find running with static friends, usually guildmates, to be superior. It mirrors my PnP experiences mostly.
    “Bodies wear out to remind us they are temporary, and force us to spend more thought on our spirits”
    ? Morgan Llywelyn, Bard: The Odyssey of the Irish

  2. #22
    Community Member Zachski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steevye View Post
    Bards can run and buff, but even that's moot if the other 5 people are halfway thru an instance by the time your loading screen ends.

    I find running with static friends, usually guildmates, to be superior. It mirrors my PnP experiences mostly.
    Yeah, Bards can run and buff, but that's hard when the Barbarian is halfway through the dungeon getting mobbed by half the monsters, the cleric's still loading the instance, and the other players are running around trying to find treasure the Barbarian missed :P
    Once I get my moods under control, I might actually get a character past level 7... ooh, shiny!

    Paladins got some love! Now for Warpriests...

  3. #23
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    I believe the answer is in fatesinger. It is just a weak destiny;
    * add +6 or so to inspire courage (you know that group utility thingie that can do something against red named!),
    * make the tier 5 'Turn the tide' functional on all enemies and half the cooldown.

    No others than bards would select this destiny as their main with my suggested changes, and they would once again be popular in groups, at the moment they are not filling their shoes.

    The evoloution of the most powerfull group buff, inspire courage, has been threading water far too long.

    i.e

    in module 1 - i believe Inspired Courage (IC) gave around +6 dmg, and the fighters back then had around 1d10 + 20 + bard song = 1d10 +26. Shade math on that is around a 30% boost.

    in module 19 - IC is all from 4-10 (depending on build), and we do what, 3d10 + 76. add bard songs to that = ~3d10 + 82. Shade math on that would be "who cares lets bring in some other class that has slightly higher DPS and higher survivability".

    Just my 2 cents -- don't have a bard anymore --

  4. #24
    Community Member Steevye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zachski View Post
    Yeah, Bards can run and buff, but that's hard when the Barbarian is halfway through the dungeon getting mobbed by half the monsters, the cleric's still loading the instance, and the other players are running around trying to find treasure the Barbarian missed :P
    When I had a barbarian, I was probably in the minority in that I stayed pretty damned close to the bards or the divines for my own personal (and theirs too) safety. Basically I just translate that if someone is not staying pretty decently close to the group most of the time that they don't want the buffs, and that's ok by me, I'll use my SP and song charges for combat related necessities. It's nice to not have to feel like everyone under the sun needs hage and inspire _____ all the time. If they do, they can hang in my vicinity, and they'll get it liberally.
    “Bodies wear out to remind us they are temporary, and force us to spend more thought on our spirits”
    ? Morgan Llywelyn, Bard: The Odyssey of the Irish

  5. #25
    Community Member Steevye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LavidDynch View Post
    I believe the answer is in fatesinger. It is just a weak destiny;
    * add +6 or so to inspire courage (you know that group utility thingie that can do something against red named!),
    * make the tier 5 'Turn the tide' functional on all enemies and half the cooldown.

    No others than bards would select this destiny as their main with my suggested changes, and they would once again be popular in groups, at the moment they are not filling their shoes.

    The evoloution of the most powerfull group buff, inspire courage, has been threading water far too long.

    i.e

    in module 1 - i believe Inspired Courage (IC) gave around +6 dmg, and the fighters back then had around 1d10 + 20 + bard song = 1d10 +26. Shade math on that is around a 30% boost.

    in module 19 - IC is all from 4-10 (depending on build), and we do what, 3d10 + 76. add bard songs to that = ~3d10 + 82. Shade math on that would be "who cares lets bring in some other class that has slightly higher DPS and higher survivability".

    Just my 2 cents -- don't have a bard anymore --
    You're spot on the "epic" moment (it's hardly epic at all). It doesn't work on bosses? Everyone else's does...which I simply consider absolute bull****. Why can't it? It's not like it does nearly as much damage as FotW's or the blitz. I mean...come on, fair is fair here. A 6 minute cooldown is atrocious, too. I use it maybe twice a dungeon if I'm lucky.

    And inspire courage needs better scaling. This all being considered, I don't consider fatesinger a weak destiny for bards (but probably pretty pathetic for everyone else). My main has used it religiously thru two lives, and I'm not sure I'd be happy without it. Maybe it's the way I play or what not, but it feels fun when I'm using it.

    The benefits of the destiny easily lie in Sirens, Dirge, Chains, and Reign. Outside these 4, I'd probably run Magister or Draconic most of the time. However those 4 abilities synergize well with my SS, and as far as group "support" enable better overall CC and generally a higher kill count without having to waste an ounce of SP. Dirge, frankly, makes the fatesinger ED useful all around (except when it heals undead or shadows... >.< )
    “Bodies wear out to remind us they are temporary, and force us to spend more thought on our spirits”
    ? Morgan Llywelyn, Bard: The Odyssey of the Irish

  6. #26
    Community Member AzB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LavidDynch View Post
    * make the tier 5 'Turn the tide' functional on all enemies and half the cooldown.
    Amen. How many other destinies have tier 5 powers that are similar to Turn the Tide, but work on all enemies and don't have the long cooldown?

    The first time I used Turn the Tide, I thought it was freaking awesome. Then the reality of it hit. It's really only useful for those times when you get mobbed by trash and can't run away, jump out, or otherwise need to mow them down. With a 6 minute cool down, that means you're lucky to use it once per quest because so many quests can be done in 10 mins or so. So if you use it a couple mins into a dungeon, you're done before the cooldown is up. Even on really long quests that take 30-40 mins, you're saving it for emergencies, and it likely only gets used once or twice.

    The reality is that it's not that useful.

    Make it work on red names. That part is a no brainer. I'd say the cooldown should be more like 20-40 seconds personally. 3 minutes is still way too long. But 6 mins is just useless.

  7. #27
    Community Member Steevye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzB View Post
    Amen. How many other destinies have tier 5 powers that are similar to Turn the Tide, but work on all enemies and don't have the long cooldown?

    The first time I used Turn the Tide, I thought it was freaking awesome. Then the reality of it hit. It's really only useful for those times when you get mobbed by trash and can't run away, jump out, or otherwise need to mow them down. With a 6 minute cool down, that means you're lucky to use it once per quest because so many quests can be done in 10 mins or so. So if you use it a couple mins into a dungeon, you're done before the cooldown is up. Even on really long quests that take 30-40 mins, you're saving it for emergencies, and it likely only gets used once or twice.

    The reality is that it's not that useful.

    Make it work on red names. That part is a no brainer. I'd say the cooldown should be more like 20-40 seconds personally. 3 minutes is still way too long. But 6 mins is just useless.
    I could see keeping it at 3 minute cooldowns because you don't need to build up for it (50 stacks for the monk ED, 10 vorps for FotW, etc). Instead you merely expend a song, which if you've got that much stacked in your favor you've got about 50 by cap (meaning I could just spam Tide Turns endlessly with a 20 sec cooldown).

    I'm all fine with it being 3 minutes and workable on bosses. I'd rather it be usable on red/purps than be 20-30 second cooldowns, personally.
    “Bodies wear out to remind us they are temporary, and force us to spend more thought on our spirits”
    ? Morgan Llywelyn, Bard: The Odyssey of the Irish

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by supott View Post
    Fascinate Undead is still broken and was never fixed!

    Can anyone confirm that it is already working? Am I the only one that it isn't working for?

    Music of the Dead/Fascinate is working. Song of Heroism is NOT working properly ... it's supposed to buff the whole party, not just one person.

  9. #29
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kryscendo View Post
    Music of the Dead/Fascinate is working. Song of Heroism is NOT working properly ... it's supposed to buff the whole party, not just one person.
    It doesn't work consistently. My guess is that there are some undead sub-types or like that have something that blocks it. Check different quests.
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

  10. #30
    Community Member Steevye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kryscendo View Post
    Music of the Dead/Fascinate is working. Song of Heroism is NOT working properly ... it's supposed to buff the whole party, not just one person.
    From what I've seen, fascinate doesn't work as intended...it lasts only 30 seconds on undead/constructs. The Fatesinger vermin enhancement doesn't work at all, so I never take it. Half the time in epic content it's not working on undead, and since there's an apparent shortage of constructs outside of Haywire's Foundry, I haven't had anything else to test it on, but I'm getting "immune" when launching the song on them too. I'm not sure why it seems to work for some and not work for others, but it's really irritating considering it's the core freakin enhancements...it's one thing if it's optional, but it's entirely different if it's not. 3 patches after u19 and nothing has been done to rectify this whatsoever.
    “Bodies wear out to remind us they are temporary, and force us to spend more thought on our spirits”
    ? Morgan Llywelyn, Bard: The Odyssey of the Irish

  11. #31
    Community Member A_Sheep2's Avatar
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    Default Against Divine Might

    I have to agree that divine might is not needed. What is needed for those who think divine might is very useful is a re-build. A melee bard should typically not have much focus on charisma. It would be typical for a melee warchanter to max out strength, so in that sense, you are roughly on par with other classes.

    If you max str and only put let's say 12 cha at creation, then you are looking at what, 22 or 24 cha at end-game for most people with tomes/items? That's +6 or +7 str (and costs at least one equipment slot). That in itself is not enough to be worth splashing another class, but I guess I can see how a bard version of divine might could be a small bonus for us.

    Combining the songs/reducing cast time would be great. The capstone and the 18 warchanter abilities definitely need a buff. To-hit usually isn't our problem so victory song doesn't seem attractive. Maybe it could grant either +10% offhand chance or +10% glancing blow chance or something.

  12. #32
    Community Member AzB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A_Sheep2 View Post
    I have to agree that divine might is not needed. What is needed for those who think divine might is very useful is a re-build. A melee bard should typically not have much focus on charisma. It would be typical for a melee warchanter to max out strength, so in that sense, you are roughly on par with other classes.

    If you max str and only put let's say 12 cha at creation, then you are looking at what, 22 or 24 cha at end-game for most people with tomes/items? That's +6 or +7 str (and costs at least one equipment slot). That in itself is not enough to be worth splashing another class, but I guess I can see how a bard version of divine might could be a small bonus for us.
    I was reading the lamm forums about the eldritch knight class, and it's pretty interesting that one of the ideas that came up was cha/int to hit and damage for this hybrid casting/melee class. I thought of this thread.

    Not getting why people want bards to be neutered. I understand some folks prefer to play it as a support class, but this changes *nothing* for that playstyle while allowing those desiring a more active character get a bit of a boost. How can that possibly be a bad thing? It's not like Warchanter is OP, or even particularly effective. Add this to the WC tree and give 'em a bone. Why not?

    I guess people are happy with their bards and don't want anything to change. I guess the real issue here is that I'm playing the wrong class. It's just that I remember my PnP days and my bard could fend for himself. I miss that when I play a bard in DDO.

  13. #33
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    Bard currently is in pretty damn sad state.

    I used to have a caster-bard. While a working dancing ball was nice, he really was a healer with some buff-songs. Still pretty fun to play, even though nobody believed he could actually heal. But, he was good at it, until they changed how bard healing works in relation to others, and the healing was neutered.

    He never could do damage. Not at all. No, great shout is not a dps spell, and that's all they got. I LR:d him to a ranged toon, and he's even worse than before. I'm ok with him not being as good as any other class, but earlier the bards were fun to play. Song of capering (previously: instant, now: full singing time), workable heals (previously there, now: just singletarget heal for pures), inspire courage (used to be a big bonus, now it's a tiny bonus with stacking issues).

    Now, it's just bad. Inspire courage adds a tiny bonus, and doesn't stack fully. Also, every single time you edit your destiny, inspire courage vanishes from your hotbar. And it's bad enough, that you don't really care enough to drag it back for the 1000th time. New songs are added, meaning you will spend 1 minute out of every 5 singing songs, if you want to keep them up. Seriously, buffing is painful.

    Finally, the main reason I built the toon: haggle. Bards don't even get that anymore. No more enhancement for +haggle. Divine sphere for +haggle feat. And even the fatesinger epic moment, Turn of the Tide, which gives +4 cha for 20 seconds (that's +2 haggle, only place I'd use that), but it blocks everything for 10 seconds. After activating the Turn the Tide, for half the duration you can't activate skillboost, can't talk to shopkeepers, can't cast spells. Horrible horrible.

    Previously I would never consider soloing with my bard, but in a party it felt like I was contributing, even if nobody noticed how much smoother things went with him doing the charms/fascinates/heals. Now I'm just too embarassed to take him out. At the moment I feel the only viable bard is a 8bard/9melee/3rogue split for a variation of a melee past life. There's just no point taking more bard after you get haste+displacement. And even then, it would be better with wizard.

  14. #34
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzB View Post
    I was reading the lamm forums about the eldritch knight class, and it's pretty interesting that one of the ideas that came up was cha/int to hit and damage for this hybrid casting/melee class. I thought of this thread.

    Not getting why people want bards to be neutered. I understand some folks prefer to play it as a support class, but this changes *nothing* for that playstyle while allowing those desiring a more active character get a bit of a boost. How can that possibly be a bad thing? It's not like Warchanter is OP, or even particularly effective. Add this to the WC tree and give 'em a bone. Why not?

    I guess people are happy with their bards and don't want anything to change. I guess the real issue here is that I'm playing the wrong class. It's just that I remember my PnP days and my bard could fend for himself. I miss that when I play a bard in DDO.
    I'm not against giving them a bone at all - I just would like it to feel more bardy. I don't want them to get the same thing War Priests, EKs, etc. get. It can do similar stuff, but I want it to be bardy.

    Make Song of Victory better. It grants full BAB. Make it better. Either take it out of the L18 slot (swap it w/ one of the WC T5s maybe) and/or increase the duration.

    Make Skaldic Rage scale. Maybe put a scaling bump in at the L18 spot we just freed up.

    Give the WC a better freezing hit - that DC is horrendous. Make it scale.

    Add in one more DPS boost for them - something they can burst with, as needed. Hell, give them freaking Inflame (after you fix it) - action boost bonus to damage from that stacks better than the gd bard capstone (which doesn't stack w/ deadly). SOMETHING to fix or replace the capstone.

    Kinda irritating that (when it works) the War Priest has an ability that boosts party wide DPS better than the WC capstone.
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

  15. #35
    Community Member Steevye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoogroves View Post
    Kinda irritating that (when it works) the War Priest has an ability that boosts party wide DPS better than the WC capstone.
    This is the sad state of bards as I see it, currently in game. There are too many other classes that just plain buff parties better than what once was the primary buff bot in game. Deadly > Inspire courage, etc....it shouldn't be that way, and bards shouldn't feel less bardy (as you said). I want my bard to feel like a bard again, not like a half baked fighter with some small cleric splashed that plays a lute.

    I'd like to see the grouped songs, or the ability to not have to put the damn instrument away every single time a song is launched. Being able to streamline them into a medley would make the process a lot less painful, whatever way they choose to do it.
    “Bodies wear out to remind us they are temporary, and force us to spend more thought on our spirits”
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  16. #36
    Hero JOTMON's Avatar
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    Default Give Bards compilations

    Compilations - would make bards a lot less tedious doing one song after another for 5+ minutes during the buffing stages..

    I would have liked to have seen bard damaging songs give a 10% increase to damage with enhancements to improve this..
    its an inspiration song so it should inspire the person affected to do more, the % method makes the song usefull throughout the players career, not just in the early stages.
    What melee would turn down 10%+ increase in damage vs +6 to damage... just saying...
    Last edited by JOTMON; 10-31-2013 at 07:58 AM.
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  17. #37
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    I like playing mostly support roles. I can kill stuff on my own, but melee is totally not my thing. I'm also not very DDO-smart, but I get by and have fun

    I've played with many different bard builds with splashes, and I admire them for what they can do ... but mostly, I admire the players for creating toons they obviously love.

    I'm not very happy about the state of bards right now. I would like to see one song for inspire courage/greatness/heroism etc. I'd like to be able to pick which buffs I want to include in one song ... many players like inspire recklessness ... but some really don't. It also seems like bards should get more party-buffs ...

    But honestly, I'd be really happy if DDO could just fix the broken stuff.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by A_Sheep2 View Post
    I have to agree that divine might is not needed. What is needed for those who think divine might is very useful is a re-build. A melee bard should typically not have much focus on charisma. It would be typical for a melee warchanter to max out strength, so in that sense, you are roughly on par with other classes.

    If you max str and only put let's say 12 cha at creation, then you are looking at what, 22 or 24 cha at end-game for most people with tomes/items? That's +6 or +7 str (and costs at least one equipment slot). That in itself is not enough to be worth splashing another class, but I guess I can see how a bard version of divine might could be a small bonus for us.
    I am not trying to be disparaging of your assessment, but Divine Might build is worth more in every sense of stat measurement though.

    Assuming you are putting strength and charisma gear on in equal measure, you would either have strength at 36 and charisma at 24 or charisma at 36 and strength at 24. The simple breakdown example:

    Strength Based Charisma Based
    Str Cha Str Cha
    16 12 Base 12 16
    7 0 Level-up 0 7
    6 6 Item enhancement 6 6
    1 1 Item insightful 1 1
    0 0 Item exceptional 0 0
    2 1 Class enhancment 1 2
    2 2 Tome 2 2
    2 2 Ship 2 2
    36 24 Totals 24 36

    But if you take the charisma path and activate Divine Might you have 37 str, 36 cha. Essentially you can spend 15 SP every couple of minutes to run around with more strength and have higher mana, DCs, skills, etc. than if you focused on strength. It also makes FoP almost a no-brainer, except for the feat starvation.

    As for the other points in this thread, I agree it would be nice to tweak the class a bit in some places but right now I would be happy if they would just fix all the broken stuff first... and there is a lot.

    P.S. Sorry about the really wide table, but I can't seem to make the formatting work right on the forum.
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  19. #39
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LASmog View Post
    STUFF
    I still don't think Divine Might is the right path. Bards (WC) already have an option w/ Skaldic Rage. They should just freaking scale that - adding at 18 and 20 (to also make the late abilities / capstone stronger).
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoogroves View Post
    I still don't think Divine Might is the right path. Bards (WC) already have an option w/ Skaldic Rage. They should just freaking scale that - adding at 18 and 20 (to also make the late abilities / capstone stronger).
    *Massive post incoming*

    I should clarify my posting: It was made in the context of "not needed". From a functional stand point, it is the better path for a melee bard and I could argue that it is needed currently. Is it the right path? Heck no, bards should not have to dip into another class to be viable as a melee build. And honestly even with the strength it is still a mediocre build, but I am fine with that as I do not see the bard class as a melee "powerhouse" class and do not think it should be. With the buffs, songs and heals I think that would be overpowered.

    I realized after the fact this is arguing a single point and not in the same vein as the point of this thread, and I apologize for that, so I will give my own suggestions:

    1. Fixes
    Both trees need some tweaks, but even if they don't get updated the spellsinger tree needs to be fixed. Currently there are at least 4 broken abilities in the SS tree, but those chain to other abilities either directly or indirectly.

    Magical/Musical studies - The magical part works (you get SP) but the musical does not (no extra songs). Because the musical part does not work, the tier 5 sister to this ability (Advanced Musical Training) does not warrant taking and may not work. On top of this there is a bug during point assignment that may lock out the third level, which also locks out the third level of the tier 5 sister version.

    Music of X - They do not seem to work reliably, if at all, with the exception of Construct working most of the time in certain adventures. If you are expecting to use Haunting Melody this bug means it does not work on certain enemies as well.

    Some of the others can be intermittent and not applying the buffs as intended, although more testing is needed.

    2. Core refinement
    I agree with many of the comments about the core abilities being either too bland or out of place.

    Music of the X - Mash Sewers and Contructs together. Both are rarely used/needed and very specialized, with most of their use in the first 10 levels. That will give you room for a different SS core ability around the level 12-16 area, such as...

    Anthem - I think 18 is a little too far out. It isn't horrible, but you can get anthem items well before that. Not sure why bards should be waiting quite that long for it. Moving it to 16 would line it up better and wouldn't leave bards starved for personal song recovery for so long. That would make room for...

    Maetro of Life and Death - So if we move Anthem back a couple of levels, we could add the Heal/Wail of the Banshee back at 18 and put it in a useful spot. At 20 they aren't going to be much of an addition since bards are already effectively using Heal scrolls by then and the usefulness of Wail is just tapering off as you are getting into epic content. Keep the 20% song duration with this and it is a somewhat useful core ability to take. Then you can add...

    <Insert new capstone name here> - +2 charisma, +10-20% song duration (not too big, but at least noticeable), and +30-50% singing haste. You now don't have to spend quite so much time to do your buffs, when things go south in an adventure you can get a Fascinate out sooner, and it mostly fixes singing speed issue for Song of Capering. You are still limited by the cool down timer though. And really, at this point you have spent 41 points in this tree focusing your bard as a spellsinger so your bard should be better at spitting out the verses than others.

    Skaldic Rage - Should get a boost similar to, "+4 with +1 for every X bard levels past X" with some balancing of the levels for tuning. I am thinking 1 every 3 past 3.

    Fighting Spirit - Should add personal boost to the song for the bard, like a +1-2 music bonus to damage

    Fighting Spirit 2 - Same as before, but adding and increasing the bonus to +2-3 (for a total of ~+3-5)

    Victory Song - 20 seconds? Really? A pure bard at the top is only 5 BAB behind, so you only gain 5 BAB at best from this high tier song (+5 to-hit, tiny attack speed boost). At level 18 that is a small boost, at a VERY short duration, using a song charge that is better used somewhere else.

    Warmaster - I think they have a good start, but again a personal bonus (another +3-4 for a total of ~+6-9) and increase the duration of the Inspire Heroics effect. This is a level 20 ability, at that range of content the bonus is weak and should not be considered over powered.

    3. Facinate/Enthrall
    Right now I see little reason to take Enthrall except as a stepping stone to Sustaining Song (small healing, but to everyone) and Song of Capering (too slow to sing). One of those reasons is that none of the CC boosters work on Enthrall, such as Haunting Melody, Sharp Note or any of the Music of the X core abilities. On top of this Suggestion song does not work on Enthralled enemies. The only reason to use Enthrall is to allow the controlled NPCs to take a hit or two before it breaks.

    4. Inspire Courage/Greatness/Heroics
    All buff songs should be typed as Bardic Music bonus, or some other type of unique stacking bonus. Right now there are too many other sources that are of the same bonus types that are equal (or even greater) than the songs and gives people less reason to be thrilled to have bard buffs. Heck, even our songs overlap the bonuses and don't fully stack in some cases (IC and IH morale bonuses to saves). I don't know if the song stacking is a bug, but if intended then at least make them all Bardic Music bonus so they aren't also competing with spells, clickies, random gen gear, etc. Right now many people have random gen loot with "Deadly" and "Accuracy" that is better than bard songs. If you are worried about "hit" and "damage" inflation, then tweak them but make them useful.

    Overall bards bring something unique to the table with their song/spell combination, but it feels like the class is limping in some areas and not useful in others.

    *You have been slain my Massive text*
    "Do not attempt to swim through a gelatinous cube, no matter how fun it looks at the time"
    jadenkorr: A soulstone does not deal damage

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