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  1. #1
    Community Member AzB's Avatar
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    Default How to fix Warchanter and bard in general

    Ok, the enhancement pass was 3 steps in the right direction. It provided bards with a great deal more, and the capstone of heal and wail were two things that we've all said bards have needed all along; real heals and some sort of dps.

    However, if you want to play a melee bard the capstone doesn't help. For one thing, most melee bards are going to invest something in str and maybe not max out cha. The lack of feats essentially requires melee bards take 2 lvls of fighter to get the feats needed for more effective melee, so they lose out on the capstone.

    And it turns out it's not that big a deal because in epics, wail cast by bards is... meh. Let me rephrase that, in EH it's meh, in EE it's useless. And that's on a completionist with 3 wiz pls. If it was at least available at 17th level like it was with a wiz, it would be useful for getting through the toughest levels in heroic, but alas that was not the choice made. Heal as well, should not be a 20th level spell, especially since even the worst bards can scroll heal by level 16. So step number 1 is moving these abilities from the capstone. I'd really like to see something original and unique for the bard capstone. More on that later.

    Next, some form of spell similar to the cleric's divine might. 2 mins of cha bonus to str for 10-15 sp at a cost of 4ap on a tier 1 enhancement. This would be quite spectacular. I've tried taking 1 level of cleric on my bard for nothing else but this, and it was totally worth the loss of a level and the capstone. Being able to do this on a pure bard would be a huge step forward for Warchanter. It would even be a nice addition for the SS for those times when he absolutely, positively needs to swing a weapon... and with a maxxed out cha it would be quite nice. And for the love of <insert favorite diety here> don't make it a song or give it a 6 minute cooldown. It should be exactly like the cleric ability, only name it something different like poetic justice or something.

    Next, another feat. Bards simply don't have enough. Even a pure casting bard (are there any?) can't get the basic feats. You need quicken, empower healing, extend, spell pen, and greater spell at least. And maybe SF:enchantment. Without spell pen, even otto's won't hit reliably in epics, and not at all in EEs. This leaves the bard very few tools in the box for epics and leaves them rather useless and frustrating to play. At least if you want to assume an active role. If you're happy just standing around singing and occasionally throwing a heal out there, then you have no complaints. But Warchanter should be a more active role. Actually, two feats would be my minimum, but I figure asking for one is more likely to be considered.

    And last but not least. Fix the bugs. You knew this one was coming ( ) so this is no surprise.

  2. #2
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzB View Post
    Ok, the enhancement pass was 3 steps in the right direction. It provided bards with a great deal more, and the capstone of heal and wail were two things that we've all said bards have needed all along; real heals and some sort of dps.

    However, if you want to play a melee bard the capstone doesn't help. For one thing, most melee bards are going to invest something in str and maybe not max out cha. The lack of feats essentially requires melee bards take 2 lvls of fighter to get the feats needed for more effective melee, so they lose out on the capstone.

    And it turns out it's not that big a deal because in epics, wail cast by bards is... meh. Let me rephrase that, in EH it's meh, in EE it's useless. And that's on a completionist with 3 wiz pls. If it was at least available at 17th level like it was with a wiz, it would be useful for getting through the toughest levels in heroic, but alas that was not the choice made. Heal as well, should not be a 20th level spell, especially since even the worst bards can scroll heal by level 16. So step number 1 is moving these abilities from the capstone. I'd really like to see something original and unique for the bard capstone. More on that later.

    Next, some form of spell similar to the cleric's divine might. 2 mins of cha bonus to str for 10-15 sp at a cost of 4ap on a tier 1 enhancement. This would be quite spectacular. I've tried taking 1 level of cleric on my bard for nothing else but this, and it was totally worth the loss of a level and the capstone. Being able to do this on a pure bard would be a huge step forward for Warchanter. It would even be a nice addition for the SS for those times when he absolutely, positively needs to swing a weapon... and with a maxxed out cha it would be quite nice. And for the love of <insert favorite diety here> don't make it a song or give it a 6 minute cooldown. It should be exactly like the cleric ability, only name it something different like poetic justice or something.

    Next, another feat. Bards simply don't have enough. Even a pure casting bard (are there any?) can't get the basic feats. You need quicken, empower healing, extend, spell pen, and greater spell at least. And maybe SF:enchantment. Without spell pen, even otto's won't hit reliably in epics, and not at all in EEs. This leaves the bard very few tools in the box for epics and leaves them rather useless and frustrating to play. At least if you want to assume an active role. If you're happy just standing around singing and occasionally throwing a heal out there, then you have no complaints. But Warchanter should be a more active role. Actually, two feats would be my minimum, but I figure asking for one is more likely to be considered.

    And last but not least. Fix the bugs. You knew this one was coming ( ) so this is no surprise.
    Some good stuff. Personally, I fall a bit different in HOW I'd like to see both trees boosted, but completely agree on the WHY.

    For SS, I'd like to see Marigold Crown-like things extended. Give the bard an option to focus on Enchant, Necro, Evocation. Make Prodigy and the capstone key off of that - adding a bonus to the relevant school and adding a spell from the appropriate school (Mass Hold Monster, Wail, dunno for evocation, maybe Cyclonic Blast).

    In general, I'd like each class to add ONE new buff song, and the other abilities they take are tagged onto that song or another song. Toss Arcane Might, Spellsong Vigor, etc. both as adds on Spellsong Trance. Make Sustaining Song be an adder to Inspire Greatness. Speed up the bard buff time.

    Give Warchanters a personal DPS boosting song - I wouldn't do the STR for SP like divine might, but something on around T2. Maybe add shrieking or sonic damage to attacks?

    I'd also collapse Iced Edges and Gathering Cold. Gathering is 1 per rank, 3 ranks. Make it 2/rank and scale the cold damage added. That helps clear room on that tier for the above ability.

    I'd also scale Skaldic Rage at WC 18 and 20.

    The WC capstone is pretty poor, given the wealth of accuracy and deadly items floating around. In addition to boosting Skaldic Rage as part of the capstone, add another +1 to inspire courage.

    Finally, that silly "freeze" power scales WORSE than Wail. Make it dependent on 1/2 level, 1/2 bard level or bard level + CHA. I'd kinda prefer it be tied to actual bard levels, but make sure Fatesinger adds in that mix.
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  3. #3
    Community Member AzB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoogroves View Post
    In general, I'd like each class to add ONE new buff song, and the other abilities they take are tagged onto that song or another song. Toss Arcane Might, Spellsong Vigor, etc. both as adds on Spellsong Trance. Make Sustaining Song be an adder to Inspire Greatness. Speed up the bard buff time.
    This is a terrific idea. Several similar ideas have been mentioned before, even years ago folks mentioned some kind of medley or some way of combining several songs so buffing didn't take so much time.

    Quote Originally Posted by voodoogroves View Post
    Give Warchanters a personal DPS boosting song - I wouldn't do the STR for SP like divine might, but something on around T2. Maybe add shrieking or sonic damage to attacks?
    That's too close to reign, which is a no brainer for any bard in Fatesinger or as a twist for a melee in Dreadnought. After playing with divine might, I stand by my suggestion. It is such a simple, effective, and completely synergistic power... at low levels it's a temporary boost of ~8 pts to strength for a cha maxxed bard, and in epic levels it can easily add 16-18 temp pts to str. Being based on cha, it scales as you level, giving a nice epic boost in Fatesinger if you use the cha boosts. It also allows a variety of weapons for a cha based melee, as you don't have to have or use the 3 weapons that do cha to damage available in game. Actually, skaldic rage could easily be modified to be cha based to scale with level rather than being a flat +4. But I'd really prefer the ability to be a spell rather than another song.

  4. #4
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzB View Post
    That's too close to reign, which is a no brainer for any bard in Fatesinger or as a twist for a melee in Dreadnought. After playing with divine might, I stand by my suggestion. It is such a simple, effective, and completely synergistic power... at low levels it's a temporary boost of ~8 pts to strength for a cha maxxed bard, and in epic levels it can easily add 16-18 temp pts to str. Being based on cha, it scales as you level, giving a nice epic boost in Fatesinger if you use the cha boosts. It also allows a variety of weapons for a cha based melee, as you don't have to have or use the 3 weapons that do cha to damage available in game. Actually, skaldic rage could easily be modified to be cha based to scale with level rather than being a flat +4. But I'd really prefer the ability to be a spell rather than another song.
    Fair enough.

    I'd still rather see Skaldic Rage scale - maybe not tied to CHA, but scale w/ WC core (so it's meaningful at 20). As it is, it's a pretty decent 1 level dip for anyone else - no way near as good as Cleric 2 or Fighter 1 but it isn't horrid.

    And it shouldn't be.

    I also wouldn't mind a big-monster use-a-song strike. Big single target damage or CC ... or cleave AOE. Instead of a song that boosts DPS by adding a buff for a duration, how about a big freaking screaming smash. Lots of [w] or some CC (or destruction/sunder) or AOE.
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  5. #5
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzB View Post
    Ok, the enhancement pass was 3 steps in the right direction. It provided bards with a great deal more, and the capstone of heal and wail were two things that we've all said bards have needed all along; real heals and some sort of dps.

    However, if you want to play a melee bard the capstone doesn't help. For one thing, most melee bards are going to invest something in str and maybe not max out cha. The lack of feats essentially requires melee bards take 2 lvls of fighter to get the feats needed for more effective melee, so they lose out on the capstone.

    And it turns out it's not that big a deal because in epics, wail cast by bards is... meh. Let me rephrase that, in EH it's meh, in EE it's useless. And that's on a completionist with 3 wiz pls. If it was at least available at 17th level like it was with a wiz, it would be useful for getting through the toughest levels in heroic, but alas that was not the choice made. Heal as well, should not be a 20th level spell, especially since even the worst bards can scroll heal by level 16. So step number 1 is moving these abilities from the capstone. I'd really like to see something original and unique for the bard capstone. More on that later.

    Next, some form of spell similar to the cleric's divine might. 2 mins of cha bonus to str for 10-15 sp at a cost of 4ap on a tier 1 enhancement. This would be quite spectacular. I've tried taking 1 level of cleric on my bard for nothing else but this, and it was totally worth the loss of a level and the capstone. Being able to do this on a pure bard would be a huge step forward for Warchanter. It would even be a nice addition for the SS for those times when he absolutely, positively needs to swing a weapon... and with a maxxed out cha it would be quite nice. And for the love of <insert favorite diety here> don't make it a song or give it a 6 minute cooldown. It should be exactly like the cleric ability, only name it something different like poetic justice or something.

    Next, another feat. Bards simply don't have enough. Even a pure casting bard (are there any?) can't get the basic feats. You need quicken, empower healing, extend, spell pen, and greater spell at least. And maybe SF:enchantment. Without spell pen, even otto's won't hit reliably in epics, and not at all in EEs. This leaves the bard very few tools in the box for epics and leaves them rather useless and frustrating to play. At least if you want to assume an active role. If you're happy just standing around singing and occasionally throwing a heal out there, then you have no complaints. But Warchanter should be a more active role. Actually, two feats would be my minimum, but I figure asking for one is more likely to be considered.

    And last but not least. Fix the bugs. You knew this one was coming ( ) so this is no surprise.
    I disagree with a lot of what you post here. First, wail is fairly useful on ee, but not as an insta-kill type spell, but as a debuff spell. I cast it all the time on my spell caster bard to debuff and take some of the hit points off the mobs on ee.

    I do not get what you mean when you say bard must have fighter levels for more feats. I did go with human 16 bard 3 ranger 1 cleric on my twf melee bard so thus I did get the human bonus feat and ranger twf, but I got all the feats that I was looking for and then some. More feats would be a nice thing of course, but are not necessarily essential for a melee bard. I took the ranger levels more for offhand % attack you get at ranger 3 and some of the positive spell power and sneak damage then for the bonus twf.

    I agree the warchanter level 20 capstone should be better. The inspire heroics buff is really lacking. I wish it was longer then 12 seconds and was better. I do not think a bard needs divine might, but they need something in the capstone.

    My caster bard has pretty much everything she could want for feats other then epic spell penetration, but I will get that when the cap goes up to 30. Not sure what you mean by feats. Spell penetration is only an issue for me when I fight Drow so that is very little concern to me because there are so few drow. Spell penetration is a problem for all classes though unless they have a bunch of past lives or something vs. drow. The vast majority of mobs in game are not drow (90%+ of epics) and therefore the real potential issue would be landing spells dcwise, but I do not have issues landing so not sure what you are talking about.

    Actually the devs fixed the vast majority of the bard bugs. Like fascinate undead and constructs were broken and are now fixed so not sure what you are talking about.

    My bard rabiez is one of my most powerful characters. She does decent melee dps, can easily heal an entire party, and has decent party buffs, can cc with songs, etc. I have plenty to do with her and she is very active. My bard hangover pure level 20 spellsinger is also very powerful she can heal a party very easily, cc mobs, etc. She does little personal dps, but she can do everything else. Both rabiez and hangover got a ton of different songs and abilities that they did not have prior to the enhancement pass.
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  6. #6
    Community Member AzB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    I disagree with a lot of what you post here. First, wail is fairly useful on ee, but not as an insta-kill type spell, but as a debuff spell. I cast it all the time on my spell caster bard to debuff and take some of the hit points off the mobs on ee.
    That's useful, but not really all that helpful if you are trying to produce some dps. We are talking Warchanter here. This is supposed to be the option for those players who don't want to be a support character, stand back and watch after they sing songs, to help other people kill... they want to participate in the killing. If wail isn't killing, like it's supposed to, it's not terribly useful. I've got other choices for debuffs, I don't have to use wail. But I don't have any other options for killing, especially not insta killing.


    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    I do not get what you mean when you say bard must have fighter levels for more feats. I did go with human 16 bard 3 ranger 1 cleric on my twf melee bard so thus I did get the human bonus feat and ranger twf, but I got all the feats that I was looking for and then some. More feats would be a nice thing of course, but are not necessarily essential for a melee bard. I took the ranger levels more for offhand % attack you get at ranger 3 and some of the positive spell power and sneak damage then for the bonus twf.
    Again, we're talking melee bard... warchanter. You need cleave and great cleave at the very least. That's what the two fighter levels give you. Also, my bard is a completionist, so I lose a feat slot for that feat as well.


    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    My bard rabiez is one of my most powerful characters. She does decent melee dps, can easily heal an entire party, and has decent party buffs, can cc with songs, etc. I have plenty to do with her and she is very active. My bard hangover pure level 20 spellsinger is also very powerful she can heal a party very easily, cc mobs, etc. She does little personal dps, but she can do everything else. Both rabiez and hangover got a ton of different songs and abilities that they did not have prior to the enhancement pass.
    I agree, the enhancement pass made huge headway. But I'm saying, for a melee based bard, it's still lacking. You may be happy with your caster bard, but I'm not happy with the melee bard. What is decent melee dps to you? Some of the guys I run with crit with 1900hps. While I don't expect that, something ~200-300 would be useful.

    I see a lot of defensive attitude here, I'm not bashing the bard. I'm simply saying that divine might makes the difference on a melee bard. I've tried it, it's very nice. With a 46 CHA, that is +18 to str. This equates to some nice damage, the big bonus is coming not at the expense of CHA, but because of CHA. The higher the CHA, the more damage bonus. It works great, is not op, and that's why I suggest it. I'm still not out dps'ing any of the melee types, but at least I'm putting out enough damage to really contribute. And maybe even kill well enough to solo.

  7. #7
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzB View Post
    That's useful, but not really all that helpful if you are trying to produce some dps. We are talking Warchanter here. This is supposed to be the option for those players who don't want to be a support character, stand back and watch after they sing songs, to help other people kill... they want to participate in the killing. If wail isn't killing, like it's supposed to, it's not terribly useful. I've got other choices for debuffs, I don't have to use wail. But I don't have any other options for killing, especially not insta killing.
    Warchanters do not get wail spellsingers do so not sure what the heck you are saying. Yeah you do not have to use wail because a warchanter does not get wail so again not sure what you are saying.


    Again, we're talking melee bard... warchanter. You need cleave and great cleave at the very least. That's what the two fighter levels give you. Also, my bard is a completionist, so I lose a feat slot for that feat as well.
    Dude you got to learn to communicate better your thread title says warchanter and bards in general. My bard has cleave, great cleave, and overwhelming crit. Hey nobody made you take that completionist feat. It is a pretty bad feat for a melee bard. Completionist does not give much dps, many hit points, and only a little saves. It is a bad feat for a melee bard.

    I agree, the enhancement pass made huge headway. But I'm saying, for a melee based bard, it's still lacking. You may be happy with your caster bard, but I'm not happy with the melee bard. What is decent melee dps to you? Some of the guys I run with crit with 1900hps. While I don't expect that, something ~200-300 would be useful.

    I see a lot of defensive attitude here, I'm not bashing the bard. I'm simply saying that divine might makes the difference on a melee bard. I've tried it, it's very nice. With a 46 CHA, that is +18 to str. This equates to some nice damage, the big bonus is coming not at the expense of CHA, but because of CHA. The higher the CHA, the more damage bonus. It works great, is not op, and that's why I suggest it. I'm still not out dps'ing any of the melee types, but at least I'm putting out enough damage to really contribute. And maybe even kill well enough to solo.
    yeah there are alot of ways to give a bard dps. you do not need divine might to do so. First of all I have two bards second off all I have all these feats that you say you can not get. You are really not making a lot of sense.

    Actually the enhancement greatly improved the dps and other features of my melee bard as well. If you bother to compare before the enhancement pass and after you will see you gained a lot.
    Last edited by maddmatt70; 10-27-2013 at 11:40 PM.
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  8. #8
    Community Member Zachski's Avatar
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    I have a few thoughts on this matter.

    The disclaimer, of course, is that I am not that well-versed in DDO to begin with, so bearing that in mind...

    I've heard a suggestion that Wail should be replaced with Weird (which is, more or less, a multi-targetting Phantasmal Killer for those that don't know) which would make more sense for the Bard, who tends to rely heavily on illusion spells in the original source material. This sounds fair to me and is a bit more lore-friendly than Wail (though Wail makes sense thematically because the Bard is a master of his or her voice, and Wail is... well, a wail.)

    Warchanter... I kinda like the skaldic warrior of the frozen north theme they have going for it, though the over emphasis on cold damage, while very tasty flavor-wise, causes some problems. The Bard should get SOME bonus for having Charisma as a warchanter so that people aren't "required" to splash Cleric for Divine Might.

    At the same time, it doesn't feel right to simply give them a reskinned Divine Might that maybe uses a song instead of spell points. (Not to mention that with the Musical Studies glitch which may or may not still exist, bards are currently hurting for songs. Ironic, considering that once, they complained that they would never be able to use all their songs at all.)

    What would you guys think about a song that, when sung, would add an amount of Sonic damage to each attack based on your Perform skill? (like, for example, 1d4 + Perform skill to start with. Not 1d4 + D20 + Perform, just 1d4 + Perform) This damage would upgrade with each rank in Warchanter (including a larger burst of damage on a crit). The capstone ability would allow you to apply this damage to everyone in your party based off of your perform skill.

    Another thing... I think bards might need more sonic damage potential as spellcasters. Their class skill, Perform, improves Sonic damage the same way that Spellcraft boosts elemental damage (...Though I and several others still think that Perform needs to improve positive spellpower, too, non-stacking with Heal) And yet they have basically no real benefit from Sonic damage (you never use sonic spells for their damage, instead you use them for their secondary effects.... or their box-breaking power). There are spells that just outright deal Sonic damage in the books, so it's not like they'd have to make stuff up to do it (not that I would necessarily mind - I long accepted that DDO wasn't "The Tabletop Game: Online" since I first heard of its existence)

    @madmatt

    While I would agree that Warchanter Bards do more DPS now than they did before, there are some problems. First of all is that everyone else's DPS has increased proportionally more, and the demands for DPS have increased as well.

    It's like gaining a fifty-cent raise when inflation has increased so that everything is $10 more, and everyone else got a $5 raise. Or something like that.

    In short, Bard's increased damage can't match the inflated damage needed.
    Last edited by Zachski; 10-28-2013 at 03:20 AM.
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  9. #9
    Hero Silken-Akira's Avatar
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    I have been looking into bard as my second live for the last 2 weeks now.
    And all I heard is how is how much it is bugged and lacking.
    anything positive about bards? some nice builds? Or is it really that bad?

  10. #10
    Community Member AzB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silken-Akira View Post
    I have been looking into bard as my second live for the last 2 weeks now.
    And all I heard is how is how much it is bugged and lacking.
    anything positive about bards? some nice builds? Or is it really that bad?
    I didn't mean to sound so negative. It is a fun class, and multiclasses nicely with several other classes. There are a few bugs, but none of them are game breaking or really a big deal for a TR. Learning which enhancements are bugged can save you a few ap while leveling, but that's true for several classes. And it's easy enough to change enhancements later even if you don't catch it.

    The original idea for this thread was how to give any bard, but especially warchanter some teeth and still stay pure. It has deviated into a thread where everyone points out my flaws, and defends what they think a bard should be. I would ignore it for the most part.

    But if you are interested in a melee bard, look into taking 1 level of cleric and picking up the first tier enhancement divine might. It has made my melee bard a lot more fun.

  11. #11
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzB View Post
    I didn't mean to sound so negative. It is a fun class, and multiclasses nicely with several other classes. There are a few bugs, but none of them are game breaking or really a big deal for a TR. Learning which enhancements are bugged can save you a few ap while leveling, but that's true for several classes. And it's easy enough to change enhancements later even if you don't catch it.

    The original idea for this thread was how to give any bard, but especially warchanter some teeth and still stay pure. It has deviated into a thread where everyone points out my flaws, and defends what they think a bard should be. I would ignore it for the most part.

    But if you are interested in a melee bard, look into taking 1 level of cleric and picking up the first tier enhancement divine might. It has made my melee bard a lot more fun.
    Yeah - absolutely - also didn't mean to sound so negative.

    I have a bard who's a ranger/cleric multi (and fighter/cleric would also be solid) - they do very well as a melee bard. I just wish there was some serious trade-off / consideration for staying pure.
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post


    Actually the devs fixed the vast majority of the bard bugs. Like fascinate undead and constructs were broken and are now fixed so not sure what you are talking about.
    Fascinate Undead is still broken and was never fixed!

    Can anyone confirm that it is already working? Am I the only one that it isn't working for?

  13. #13
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Still doesn't work for me either.
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    Default I don't get why?

    Quote Originally Posted by AzB View Post
    Ok, the enhancement pass was 3 steps in the right direction. It provided bards with a great deal more, and the capstone of heal and wail were two things that we've all said bards have needed all along; real heals and some sort of dps.

    However, if you want to play a melee bard the capstone doesn't help. For one thing, most melee bards are going to invest something in str and maybe not max out cha. The lack of feats essentially requires melee bards take 2 lvls of fighter to get the feats needed for more effective melee, so they lose out on the capstone.

    And it turns out it's not that big a deal because in epics, wail cast by bards is... meh. Let me rephrase that, in EH it's meh, in EE it's useless. And that's on a completionist with 3 wiz pls. If it was at least available at 17th level like it was with a wiz, it would be useful for getting through the toughest levels in heroic, but alas that was not the choice made. Heal as well, should not be a 20th level spell, especially since even the worst bards can scroll heal by level 16. So step number 1 is moving these abilities from the capstone. I'd really like to see something original and unique for the bard capstone. More on that later.

    Next, some form of spell similar to the cleric's divine might. 2 mins of cha bonus to str for 10-15 sp at a cost of 4ap on a tier 1 enhancement. This would be quite spectacular. I've tried taking 1 level of cleric on my bard for nothing else but this, and it was totally worth the loss of a level and the capstone. Being able to do this on a pure bard would be a huge step forward for Warchanter. It would even be a nice addition for the SS for those times when he absolutely, positively needs to swing a weapon... and with a maxxed out cha it would be quite nice. And for the love of <insert favorite diety here> don't make it a song or give it a 6 minute cooldown. It should be exactly like the cleric ability, only name it something different like poetic justice or something.

    Next, another feat. Bards simply don't have enough. Even a pure casting bard (are there any?) can't get the basic feats. You need quicken, empower healing, extend, spell pen, and greater spell at least. And maybe SF:enchantment. Without spell pen, even otto's won't hit reliably in epics, and not at all in EEs. This leaves the bard very few tools in the box for epics and leaves them rather useless and frustrating to play. At least if you want to assume an active role. If you're happy just standing around singing and occasionally throwing a heal out there, then you have no complaints. But Warchanter should be a more active role. Actually, two feats would be my minimum, but I figure asking for one is more likely to be considered.

    And last but not least. Fix the bugs. You knew this one was coming ( ) so this is no surprise.
    WHY must EVERY class be combat capable? Bards were always support characters with a splash of everything. Making every single class as combat capable as the next just starts making every class ....more of the same?

    And what is wrong with singing and throwing out the occassonal heal? Bards' perform skill and thus the dc's of their songs are SO much higher than spell casters can get with their spells that singing is a bards most effective ability. And who dislikes a toon that can heal them? A bard in a party magnifies the rest of the party with the spell and bard song buffs and can then sing mobs into submission for crowd control. We have 2 dedicated offensive arcane classes, and many more dedicated melee and ranged dps classes; WHY can't bards be the jack of all trades support class? What is wrong with having a class that maybe isn't Epic Elite soloable but IS an asset to any party, even epic elite parties?

    If a person professes to LOVE bards, why can they not love bards for what they are? love them for being a support class?
    If a person doesn't love them as is and wants a more offensive toon, then play one of the offensive classes???...don't ask for Bards to be turned into...into something else, something other than bards.
    Last edited by Thumbed_Servant; 10-28-2013 at 02:02 PM.
    Thumbed_Servant (to my cats ) I LOVE playing a healer (nannybot to the derisive folks)
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  15. #15
    Community Member AzB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thumbed_Servant View Post
    WHY must EVERY class be combat capable? Bards were always support characters with a splash of everything. Making every single class as combat capable as the next just starts making every class ....more of the same?

    And what is wrong with singing and throwing out the occassonal heal? Bards' perform skill and thus the dc's of their songs are SO much higher than spell casters can get with their spells that singing is a bards most effective ability. And who dislikes a toon that can heal them? A bard in a party magnifies the rest of the party with the spell and bard song buffs and can then sing mobs into submission for crowd control. We have 2 dedicated offensive arcane classes, and many more dedicated melee and ranged dps classes; WHY can't bards be the jack of all trades support class? What is wrong with having a class that maybe isn't Epic Elite soloable but IS an asset to any party, even epic elite parties?
    I'll take one last stab (pun intended ) at this.

    First off; why must every class be combat capable?

    Two reasons. First, this is not PnP DnD. It's a video game that is focused on action. Even in PnP, the bard had more teeth. I've played them in PnP, and they were vastly superior to the DDO bard. Partly because in a role playing game things like charms and enchantments can be very useful for avoiding fights, getting information, etc. These things are not very important in DDO. But they are also more versatile... they can be support characters, but they can also do other things really well. In DDO, it's been a long, uphill struggle to get them past being a strictly support character. The second reason every class should have the *option* to be combat capable is that much of the game is soloed now. You may not prefer to play that way, but it is a reality for many of us. A support character has no chance of beating a red name in a video game when all red names have blanket immunity to everything a bard brings to the table. If you have no melee, you're not going to finish many quests solo. And I'm not talking epic elite, I'm talking heroic elite and even hard. Go try Running with the Devils with a first life pure bard. Actually, most of the quest is pretty trivial, you can run past most everything in the game. But when you get to the end fight, what do you do? You can't charm, fascinate, dance, hold, or otherwise subdue the rednames while you beat on them. Even one at a time, you aren't going to have enough heals to make it through all the end fights before dying doing 30pts of damage a swing. Wands or scrolls might be an option... scroll up an ice storm to fight in and that might help. But wands and scrolls in this game, at least the offensive ones, are severely neutered.

    And what is wrong with singing and throwing out the occassonal heal? Absolutely nothing. And there is nothing in the way bards are engineered now to stop you from doing that. And there's nothing in my suggestions that would stop you or diminish your capability to do that if that's the way you want to play.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thumbed_Servant View Post
    If a person professes to LOVE bards, why can they not love bards for what they are? love them for being a support class?
    If a person doesn't love them as is and wants a more offensive toon, then play one of the offensive classes???...don't ask for Bards to be turned into...into something else, something other than bards.
    As mentioned above, the bard was never meant to be only a support class in DnD. They were originally designed to be extremely versatile and could have thieving skills, master fighter capability, spell casting including some offensive spells. You could pick and choose from these abilities to make the bard whatever you wanted. You could make a jack of all trades/master of none. You could create an enchanter or a support character. You could even make them melee based or with impressive thieving skills. You weren't tied down to only the support role.

    So I'm not saying you can't love and play the bard exactly how you are. I'm simply trying to get some ideas for options for some of those other things... While staying pure. It would simply make the bard more interesting. And clearly, it's one of the least played classes on my server. Even counting the multiclasses, it's way behind every other class in popularity.

    Part of the issue is game design. The developers have taken a very lazy way out using the "boss fight" video game mechanic that goes way back to the first linear action video games. And barriers that magically disappear when the mobs are dead. (Actually, this could be valid in some adventures, but it's waaay overused and limits other classes like rogues or even wizards as well) This is another lazy game design feature that requires dps to solve problems. But these things aren't going to change. But we have seen some compromises in the bard character in recent years. I'd like to keep it progressing, not to eliminate the support bard, but to add options to the class to make it more viable for solo play and today's pugging scene where everyone is basically soloing in the same instance at the same time. (Thank you for the bard sprint devs, that was a huge help!)

    So there's no need to get defensive. I'm not trying to ruin the bard you like to play. I'm only expressing my opinion that it would be a more popular class if there were some more options. There's nothing wrong with having more choices, is there?

  16. #16
    Community Member Thumbed_Servant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzB View Post

    I'm not trying to ruin the bard you like to play. I'm only expressing my opinion that it would be a more popular class if there were some more options. There's nothing wrong with having more choices, is there?
    Then well said. I hope you get the additional options you like to make bards more fun.

    Yeah, I'm somewhat, somewhat anti-solo play. I have a good circle of friends, run a guild, and usually play a healer so I'm seldom soloing; to be honest, never quite understood other people wanting to solo all the time. But, as you say, and this is a very important point: it is a video game, not the p&p game, and there is much to DDO that is because of it being a video game.

    Still, and I have to wonder, why play bard if you want a more potent class for soloing and more potent classes are available?
    Thumbed_Servant (to my cats ) I LOVE playing a healer (nannybot to the derisive folks)
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    Current active toons: Hildegarde 20 clr-10 epic/ Muhther 18 clr-2 fav-6 epic/ Sheolah 20 pal-2 epic/ plus many 'casual' toons

  17. #17
    Community Member AzB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thumbed_Servant View Post
    Then well said. I hope you get the additional options you like to make bards more fun.

    Yeah, I'm somewhat, somewhat anti-solo play. I have a good circle of friends, run a guild, and usually play a healer so I'm seldom soloing; to be honest, never quite understood other people wanting to solo all the time. But, as you say, and this is a very important point: it is a video game, not the p&p game, and there is much to DDO that is because of it being a video game.

    Still, and I have to wonder, why play bard if you want a more potent class for soloing and more potent classes are available?
    I am also anti-solo play. But the reality of my lifestyle and the fact that many of the people I've run with in the past are now gone, I have to pug or play solo. And if you pug, you pretty much have to be prepared to solo because a significant portion of the time you are either fending for yourself because the whole party ran off the other direction, or because they're all dead and you have them all in your backpack.

    Why play bard? That's an excellent question. I enjoy having versatile characters that can fill many roles. Partly because I'm moody and like different things on different days, but mostly because I like that playstyle. I've tried every class in DDO at least once pure, and at least a couple times multiclassed and I still keep coming back to bards because they have so much potential. I find playing a pure melee or a pure caster rather boring most of the time.

    My other option is druid as it seems to lend itself to a hybrid melee/offensive caster fairly well, and can still do some healing. It is not as cool as the bard though.

  18. #18
    Community Member Steevye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzB View Post
    As mentioned above, the bard was never meant to be only a support class in DnD. They were originally designed to be extremely versatile and could have thieving skills, master fighter capability, spell casting including some offensive spells. You could pick and choose from these abilities to make the bard whatever you wanted. You could make a jack of all trades/master of none. You could create an enchanter or a support character. You could even make them melee based or with impressive thieving skills. You weren't tied down to only the support role.

    So I'm not saying you can't love and play the bard exactly how you are. I'm simply trying to get some ideas for options for some of those other things... While staying pure. It would simply make the bard more interesting. And clearly, it's one of the least played classes on my server. Even counting the multiclasses, it's way behind every other class in popularity.

    Part of the issue is game design. The developers have taken a very lazy way out using the "boss fight" video game mechanic that goes way back to the first linear action video games. And barriers that magically disappear when the mobs are dead. (Actually, this could be valid in some adventures, but it's waaay overused and limits other classes like rogues or even wizards as well) This is another lazy game design feature that requires dps to solve problems. But these things aren't going to change. But we have seen some compromises in the bard character in recent years. I'd like to keep it progressing, not to eliminate the support bard, but to add options to the class to make it more viable for solo play and today's pugging scene where everyone is basically soloing in the same instance at the same time. (Thank you for the bard sprint devs, that was a huge help!)
    I definitely agree with all this. I always tell people I don't consider my bard main a support character, but she can be that too. In PnP, my primary bard was an enchantress, and I did my best to replicate that here in DDO. With the Fatesinger ED, I'm definitely feeling happier with how DDO treats the class. I've done some dabbling into magister and draconic for twists, but nothing earth shattering, basically just support bumps like the fort save draconic feat. I don't like soloing, but I definitely hate pugging more now than ever, and I'd prefer trusting my enchanting ability to 5 other people who will be a coin toss whether or not I can tolerate grouping with them.

    But limited to a support role? That's boring. I can do that role, heal, and combat cast/melee in between and have more fun. That's just the way I prefer to play the class. And if/when DDO incorporates more "avoid battle" scenarios, like the "Deal with a Dragon" in the King's Forest, I'll have a helluva lot more fun with this game (kinda like when I run Partycrashers, it's just sooooo freakin fun).
    “Bodies wear out to remind us they are temporary, and force us to spend more thought on our spirits”
    ? Morgan Llywelyn, Bard: The Odyssey of the Irish

  19. #19
    Community Member Thumbed_Servant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzB View Post
    ... I enjoy having versatile characters that can fill many roles. Partly because I'm moody and like different things on different days, but mostly because I like that playstyle. I've tried every class in DDO at least once pure, and at least a couple times multiclassed and I still keep coming back to bards because they have so much potential. I find playing a pure melee or a pure caster rather boring most of the time.

    My other option is druid as it seems to lend itself to a hybrid melee/offensive caster fairly well, and can still do some healing. It is not as cool as the bard though.
    Try cleric again. With the Warpriest tree you now have more oomf to melee, can offensive cast with the Divine Disciple tree, and of course still heal
    Thumbed_Servant (to my cats ) I LOVE playing a healer (nannybot to the derisive folks)
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  20. #20
    Community Member Zachski's Avatar
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    I can't actually think of a time where Bards were ever meant to be pure support (except maybe some Final Fantasy games, when they weren't busy being a waste of a party slot)

    But I can think of times where Bards were meant to combine magic and melee in combat, with music to make up for their lack of specialization.

    Bards get Longswords as a natural proficiency. They're meant to be a wandering minstrel who could handle his own when attacked by brigands, and then brag about it with much embellishment when he arrives at his destination.

    There's another thing. In PNP, you have a group of friends. You are always going to have this group of friends. You are almost never going to be the only player a DM has. Pure support classes are feasible and fun to play.

    In MMOs overall, however, that's a different story. You are not guaranteed a party. You are not guaranteed a slot in a party. Your usefulness is entirely determined by the lack of other party members' usefulness to make up for their shortcomings.

    A pure support character, while desired at end-game, is going to have about ten times as much problem getting to end-game solo while everyone else solos there no problem - and they won't party BECAUSE they have such an easy time soloing. Let's face it, being in a party is actually a lot more work than simply fighting yourself. Sure, it'll take longer, but you don't have to deal with other people and trying to get them to listen to you or to listen to the party leader (or trying to get the party leader to actually lead)

    Imagine being a bard who never gets a chance to buff the entire group because instead of waiting for everyone to enter, people charge ahead as soon as they get into the instance, leading to them being stretched out. Lots of impatient players, especially early on - and for characters who can't solo, that beginning period actually takes a lot longer to get through than characters who CAN solo.
    The guy who likes to experience every class. Except Fighter >:[ I don't like you Fighter.
    Hey Devs! Let's give Warpriests and Eldritch Knights some loving, kay? :<

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