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  1. #1
    Community Member Spoonwelder's Avatar
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    Default Earning Hearts of Wood - I am coming around on the new system

    My initial reaction to the new system for earning Hearts of Wood was a big NO WAY. Then Turbine acquiesced a bit and are looking at the right things - reducing the number of comms required - hopefully providing a way to get it from other than sagas etc....it looks like they are coming around to our way of thinking.

    But I would like to put one thing out there to the forumites.....I recently started grinding more tokens out to buy the hearts the old way just before U20 just in case they don't follow through on their promises and I started it when they were still not budging.

    Anyway it reminded me of how few token/token fragments you got per quest. I don't 'grind' for the tokens by only doing challenges or EDA or what not - I just solo eH quests(with any of my 10-12 characters that at epic levels that I feel like that day) - the quicker quests usually (Snitch, Big Top, BoB, Von1/2 etc...) but they also produce fewer tokens (generally). I do that to get a chance at seals/scrolls/shards I want (ie. MNG, or AGA, or SOS maybe a few others) rather than the pure speed of challenge grinding. Doing it my way, which I would also interpret as more closely parallel with the way Turbine wants us to earn them in the new system (ie. run alot of different quests).....I earned an average of 50ish tokens per quest so to get a True Heart I need to run about 40 quests at that rate....this is closer to Turbines new Comm grind rate (if they drop the comms required to the 250 range like they have stated). Also it reminded me of how long it took me to grind out my first heart....yup about 40hours (especially as this was when epics were harder).

    One other thing I did was consolidate all my loose tokens across all my characters to see how many I had total - before this new grind I had built up a cache of enough tokens to get 5 hearts (having spent another 10-12 or so over the years). I play a fair bit but by no means am I an epic grinder and I wasn't really active in epics until about 2011ish. I would say most of my recent token build up is from running epic raid nights with my guild so I get 1-2 per week just from that. So obviously my stash of tokens was built up very slowly over time. This was nice as I didn't feel a crushing need to complete any specific stuff - just go out and have fun.

    So what am I saying:
    1. I think the current 250 comms figure is close to correct if 3/quest +duplication in sagas is the correct figure (ie. say it averages to 6 that is about 40 quests).
    2. The reason I could slowly build up so many hearts was because they were BTA - if I had to do this all on one character then I would have had to change my gaming style entirely.
    3. Sagas can't be the only source because some of us are casual about this....and just want to have fun and accumulate them as we go along.
    5. We all kinda knew the easy button of Challenge turn ins for tokens was too good to be true (~6hrs to grind a Heart). I think challenges should still give you tokens but the turnin rate needs to be tuned so that it more closely matches the other sources.

    Anyway - thats my current thinking - that said I haven't thought much about the Epic Hearts or Iconic - I don't think I will do that much at this time....I like Level 1-20 too much to just keep doing the epic stuff.
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  2. #2
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    you just suggested a nerf to challenges. prepare for the rage

  3. #3
    Community Member Spoonwelder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    you just suggested a nerf to challenges. prepare for the rage
    Bah - challenges have been dying a slow death anyway. Just put them out of their misery....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spoonwelder View Post
    So what am I saying:
    1. I think the current 250 comms figure is close to correct if 3/quest +duplication in sagas is the correct figure (ie. say it averages to 6 that is about 40 quests).
    It's not. They're making it 3/quest spread across all sagas. So, if a quest is part of 2 sagas, it gives 1.5 comms for each saga, if it's part of 3 sagas, they're giving 1 comm to each saga. That's why you get 17 comms from an 11-quest saga.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spoonwelder View Post
    2. The reason I could slowly build up so many hearts was because they were BTA - if I had to do this all on one character then I would have had to change my gaming style entirely.
    Agreed. And this is a big problem. Enforcing a single playstyle in a game this varied is just bad. The way somebody wants to play the game can't be the only way anybody can do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spoonwelder View Post
    3. Sagas can't be the only source because some of us are casual about this....and just want to have fun and accumulate them as we go along.
    Another agreement. Everybody can get used to doing the sagas, and while some would repeat many quests before getting the saga done, they'd eventually get there. BUT! That completely invalidates any quests that are not part of a saga. VoN5-6? No point, no saga. Shroud? Carneval chain? Pirate chain? Skip them all.

    It's somewhat the same currently, but due to how it currently works, it's not a gamestopper. For the dudes who reinc rarely, they can just gather up the tokens in time, consolidate them to the reinc-toon and reinc. The more active reincers can just spend an afternoon farming for tokens, then reinc the reinc-toon.

    When the effort is multiplied up to the point that it takes the whole damn Epic Reinc to gather barely enough mats for a single reinc, it means that you have to focus your effort solely on grinding for the hearts, and when you get it, you can reinc and focus your efforts solely on gathering another set of mats.

    TR you currently get the heart relatively easily, and then spend alot of effort on the actual leveling. The suggestion, that it should take as much effort to get the heart as it takes to do the actual reinc is just silly, and bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spoonwelder View Post
    5. We all kinda knew the easy button of Challenge turn ins for tokens was too good to be true (~6hrs to grind a Heart). I think challenges should still give you tokens but the turnin rate needs to be tuned so that it more closely matches the other sources.
    This is a harder question. (Some) challenges have better token/minute rate than the others, but all of them have a **** poor exp/min and gear/min rate when doing that. As long as the exp is as bad as it is, I'm OK with that. If the turn in rate matches other sources, nobody will do challenges for tokens. Seriously, how many people actually run challenges more than 1/life for the first-time star-bonus and/or favor grab?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spoonwelder View Post
    Anyway - thats my current thinking - that said I haven't thought much about the Epic Hearts or Iconic - I don't think I will do that much at this time....I like Level 1-20 too much to just keep doing the epic stuff.
    I kind of like the idea of leveling 1-28(30) and then doing a double-reinc. That's a lot of leveling though, so if the gathering of heart adds a significant percentage to that effort, I'll just stop. Free (or close to free) hearts, I personally feel like that would be a better approach in the long run, happier customers, possibly more ottos and exp potion sales. But, as the DDO-Store drives the development, I guess that's just daydreaming.

  5. #5
    Community Member Spoonwelder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by era42 View Post
    It's not. They're making it 3/quest spread across all sagas. So, if a quest is part of 2 sagas, it gives 1.5 comms for each saga, if it's part of 3 sagas, they're giving 1 comm to each saga. That's why you get 17 comms from an 11-quest saga
    My understanding of the huge long thread was that it was about 3/quest not including the saga (this was based upon running Epic Hard) the screenies I saw I thought were eNorm for 17comms so 30-33 at eH would be about right. Though I could be wrong - I didn't read every single post.


    Agreed. And this is a big problem. Enforcing a single playstyle in a game this varied is just bad. The way somebody wants to play the game can't be the only way anybody can do it.
    Yep

    Another agreement. Everybody can get used to doing the sagas, and while some would repeat many quests before getting the saga done, they'd eventually get there. BUT! That completely invalidates any quests that are not part of a saga. VoN5-6? No point, no saga. Shroud? Carneval chain? Pirate chain? Skip them all.
    Very good point......don't make all that old content more ignoreable. As an example - people are already shifting from farming in both GH and Necro to level 15/16s to just running 2-3 sagas and maybe a single pass of Necro on Elite.

    It's somewhat the same currently, but due to how it currently works, it's not a gamestopper. For the dudes who reinc rarely, they can just gather up the tokens in time, consolidate them to the reinc-toon and reinc. The more active reincers can just spend an afternoon farming for tokens, then reinc the reinc-toon.

    Yeah I guess the serial reincarnaters should have a 'quick/high grind no other reward path'....the challenges serve that role now....6hrs is still a bit too fast IMO.

    When the effort is multiplied up to the point that it takes the whole damn Epic Reinc to gather barely enough mats for a single reinc, it means that you have to focus your effort solely on grinding for the hearts, and when you get it, you can reinc and focus your efforts solely on gathering another set of mats.
    Agreed with double stars......but if you didn't have a bunch of tokens banked or from other toon, then it would take most people a fairly long time to grind a heart anyway soooooo thats part of my point. Subject to the challenge grind option.

    TR you currently get the heart relatively easily, and then spend alot of effort on the actual leveling. The suggestion, that it should take as much effort to get the heart as it takes to do the actual reinc is just silly, and bad.



    This is a harder question. (Some) challenges have better token/minute rate than the others, but all of them have a **** poor exp/min and gear/min rate when doing that. As long as the exp is as bad as it is, I'm OK with that. If the turn in rate matches other sources, nobody will do challenges for tokens. Seriously, how many people actually run challenges more than 1/life for the first-time star-bonus and/or favor grab.
    Agreed they are little used - in the current iteration of hte new comms system they will be further devalued. So anything we get from them is a bonus.


    I kind of like the idea of leveling 1-28(30) and then doing a double-reinc. That's a lot of leveling though, so if the gathering of heart adds a significant percentage to that effort, I'll just stop. Free (or close to free) hearts, I personally feel like that would be a better approach in the long run, happier customers, possibly more ottos and exp potion sales. But, as the DDO-Store drives the development, I guess that's just daydreami.
    Earned hearts are ok by me but there has to be a risk reward correlation. Right now its about right - from our point of view - Turbine wants something else....the why of that change still escapes me other than a straight we want more money for you to TR....which will actually translate to buh-bye for many paying customers.
    comments in red.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spoonwelder View Post
    comments in red.
    When you inline comments in red like that, when I click reply with quote, I don't get any of your text, just the line above. So, replying off the cuff.

    Yes, it would make sense to give 3 tokens for a hard completion from a quest to every saga, but that is not the case. The example number of 17 comms from 11-quest saga was with hard completion: they did it on normal and then used shards to upgrade the saga reward level. Thus, it was 17 comms from 11-quest saga on _HARD_ completion.

    Please read this lamannia post with thought: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5143357

    Let me point you to the main line: "roughly 3 Commendations per quest after looking at the overlapping quests". After overlapping quests. Fits perfectly in line wit the 17 from quest. So, you don't get any bonus from running sagas consequently, but instead you get a heavy penalty if you don't.

    You said 6-hour grind to gain nothing but to be able to play is too fast, I say even 6 hours is too much. But, that's a balance. At least with sagas you can do varied content instead of just running a single thing over and over until your eyes bleed. I would actually like some bonus for first-time completion of the day for the tokens, and/or penalty for repeat farming. Promote varied content, and there's alot of quests one can farm anyway. Probably not as applicable to the challenges, but they need a bigger overhaul regarding exp/rewards, not just a simple token-related quick pass-by.

    My point is. Reinc hearts aren't a reward. They are a showstopper that prevents you from playing. You have to grind to be able to play. During reinc you lose all your exp for the feat, but the reinc heart is just an artificial stopper. They used to have similar mechanism for advancing levels above certain cap. How would you feel if you had to use 10 tokens of twelve for a leveling heart that enables you to advance a single epic level? Too much? The exact same thing with reinc tokens. Why should they be extremely hard to get? Seriously.

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    Quote Originally Posted by era42 View Post
    Let me point you to the main line: "roughly 3 Commendations per quest after looking at the overlapping quests". After overlapping quests. Fits perfectly in line wit the 17 from quest. So, you don't get any bonus from running sagas consequently, but instead you get a heavy penalty if you don't.
    Actually, there has been some doubt behind the meaning of the quoted line; some people think that the quest gives 3 per mission and divided by saga credit, while others thought it to mean that it was averaging 3 a saga. Later in the thread, it has been clarified that it is considered to be 3 CoV per saga the mission qualifies for. So, if a quest gives credit to 1 saga, it effectively gives 3 CoV, if a quest gives credit for 2 sagas, it effectively gives 6 CoV, and if a quest gives credit for 3 sagas, it effectively gives 9 CoV.
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    Community Member Spoonwelder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Worldcrafter View Post
    Actually, there has been some doubt behind the meaning of the quoted line; some people think that the quest gives 3 per mission and divided by saga credit, while others thought it to mean that it was averaging 3 a saga. Later in the thread, it has been clarified that it is considered to be 3 CoV per saga the mission qualifies for. So, if a quest gives credit to 1 saga, it effectively gives 3 CoV, if a quest gives credit for 2 sagas, it effectively gives 6 CoV, and if a quest gives credit for 3 sagas, it effectively gives 9 CoV.
    This was the understanding I had - I think Vargouille was the one that verified that....but I didn't want to hunt down the quote....I am feeling lazy today.
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    Community Member Spoonwelder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by era42 View Post
    When you inline comments in red like that, when I click reply with quote, I don't get any of your text, just the line above. So, replying off the cuff.

    Yes, it would make sense to give 3 tokens for a hard completion from a quest to every saga, but that is not the case. The example number of 17 comms from 11-quest saga was with hard completion: they did it on normal and then used shards to upgrade the saga reward level. Thus, it was 17 comms from 11-quest saga on _HARD_ completion.

    Please read this lamannia post with thought: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5143357

    Let me point you to the main line: "roughly 3 Commendations per quest after looking at the overlapping quests". After overlapping quests. Fits perfectly in line wit the 17 from quest. So, you don't get any bonus from running sagas consequently, but instead you get a heavy penalty if you don't.

    You said 6-hour grind to gain nothing but to be able to play is too fast, I say even 6 hours is too much. But, that's a balance. At least with sagas you can do varied content instead of just running a single thing over and over until your eyes bleed. I would actually like some bonus for first-time completion of the day for the tokens, and/or penalty for repeat farming. Promote varied content, and there's alot of quests one can farm anyway. Probably not as applicable to the challenges, but they need a bigger overhaul regarding exp/rewards, not just a simple token-related quick pass-by.

    My point is. Reinc hearts aren't a reward. They are a showstopper that prevents you from playing. You have to grind to be able to play. During reinc you lose all your exp for the feat, but the reinc heart is just an artificial stopper. They used to have similar mechanism for advancing levels above certain cap. How would you feel if you had to use 10 tokens of twelve for a leveling heart that enables you to advance a single epic level? Too much? The exact same thing with reinc tokens. Why should they be extremely hard to get? Seriously.


    I am horrible at multi quoting - really can't be bothered to figure it out....again lazy day.

    When epic levels were loot OR TR tokens only then yes tokens were an artificial speedbump to the TR grind.....and at the time with no other endgame beyond level 20 a speedbump was needed. It started out as a fairly significant time sink but became nominal with the challenges once people figured out the math.

    Now with content from L20-28 TRing is an option - a path so to speak and part of that path is doing enough at epic level to earn your TR to be granted the right by the gods to take another stab at life. Show enough valor against the mightiest of foes and you earn it.....but you can go farther and reach higher and have a different path - epic or iconic TR......
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spoonwelder View Post
    I am horrible [...]
    Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spoonwelder View Post
    Now with content from L20-28 TRing is an option - a path so to speak and part of that path is doing enough at epic level to earn your TR to be granted the right by the gods to take another stab at life. Show enough valor against the mightiest of foes and you earn it.....but you can go farther and reach higher and have a different path - epic or iconic TR......
    So... it's alright that there's an additional, artificial, protracted, led-by-the-nose grind to earn a heart to let you TR: "because lore you made up". Fine, I can do that too.

    "You have battled your way to the greatest heights of mortal accomplishment, overcoming all foes, and in so doing have attained the ultimate pinnacle of power available to one whose soul contains the echoes of but a single existence. As one of these rare heroes, the gods offer you a choice: remain as you are... or sacrifice all but a fraction of you have learned for another incarnation, in which your spirit will burn a little brighter and more power will be thine. Be warned; you will have to repeat your journey to glory, and it will be longer and more arduous this time, but that is the cost of striving for perfection. Will you take up the challenge, mortal?"

    Or in other words: you have performed the necessary feats of derring-do by achieving (heroic or epic) level cap, so you get offered the option of TR'ing as a reward. See how easy that was? You can justify anything from a lore perspective.

    TR'ing requires you to earn a heart by doing extra stuff, purely and simply so there's an incentive for you to avoid doing whatever-it-is by buying a heart from the store. And that's it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spoonwelder View Post
    I am horrible at multi quoting - really can't be bothered to figure it out....again lazy day.
    It's pretty easy. Rather than bracketing your comment with color /color, bracket it with /quote quote to break up the post you are quoting.

    When epic levels were loot OR TR tokens only then yes tokens were an artificial speedbump to the TR grind.....and at the time with no other endgame beyond level 20 a speedbump was needed. It started out as a fairly significant time sink but became nominal with the challenges once people figured out the math.

    Now with content from L20-28 TRing is an option - a path so to speak and part of that path is doing enough at epic level to earn your TR to be granted the right by the gods to take another stab at life. Show enough valor against the mightiest of foes and you earn it.....but you can go farther and reach higher and have a different path - epic or iconic TR......
    Screw the gods. They aren't paying for our subs or buying our TPs, so they get no say in the matter. Simply put, people are more likely to play a game that plays the way they want to play than to play one that forces them to either play some other way or pay extra to play the way they want it to. While it may seem that paying extra is good for Turbine, people who don't play their game due to having to do that aren't paying them anything. IMO, best sell players those things they want and give them those things they need in order to play. Since TRing seems to have pretty much become the game for many, True Hearts or whatever the are going to call them pretty much fall in the category of things that are needed.

  12. #12
    Community Member visibleman's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Spoonwelder;5148796]My initial reaction to the new system for earning Hearts of Wood was a big NO WAY. Then Turbine acquiesced a bit and are looking at the right things - reducing the number of comms required[quote]

    wait, what! Something else I have to spend Comms on?! you are taking the pi$$ right?

    If Comms are required, then Comms absolutely must be added to the RAID x20 list - 5 Comms I'd say would be about right.
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    Community Member Spoonwelder's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=visibleman;5148881][QUOTE=Spoonwelder;5148796]My initial reaction to the new system for earning Hearts of Wood was a big NO WAY. Then Turbine acquiesced a bit and are looking at the right things - reducing the number of comms required

    wait, what! Something else I have to spend Comms on?! you are taking the pi$$ right?

    If Comms are required, then Comms absolutely must be added to the RAID x20 list - 5 Comms I'd say would be about right.
    Turbine is introducing Commendations of Valor (as opposed to Heroism that already drop in the FOT and CITW raids). These will be used as a new curency to buy stuff - starting with Hearts of wood (3 types Heroic, Iconic, Epic)....check the Lammania threads.
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