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  1. #1
    Community Member Dagolar's Avatar
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    Default Devs: Have you given up on the game?

    You can read my frustration and exasperation-derived post on Mabar lag bug here: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...-To-Ruin-Mabar

    Continuing off that in a more composed manner, and taking into account new changes on lama, here are the considerations in mind:


    * Long-standing bugs without signs of getting fixed

    * New bugs being released to a staggering degree

    * Old bugs resurfacing

    * Old content, including events, still receiving minimal to no attention, giving the firm impression that the devs wish to scrap all existing content, or at the very least, have no interest in maintaining overall game stability, balance, creativity, interest, et al.

    * Relatively new content coming out half-finished, and receiving little attention. EG, Epic Destinies still have bugged abilities.

    * Bug tracker still not working after all these years

    * All the broken promises of late, after assurances such was a thing of the past

    * The continued rushing out of content [though, despite the ridiculously inappropriate tantrums and anxiety of some posters on the lama forums at how raw the content is, the current lama beta seems to be devoting enough time thus far on ensuring we get our say in. Thus far, that's looking like a good step forward.]

    * Constant ignoring of our beta concerns- still. Again, this doesn't reference a majority of the upcoming UD20 content/changes, which have been given good consideration thus far, though perhaps light on ongoing feedback/discussion in some places.




    End result-

    Tons of us are stressed by an activity we once found relaxing. We're also deeply concerned over what seems to be a guaranteed future degeneration of the game's quality, leading us to believe the game won't last much longer [as a stable, balanced, growing [etc] product].

    We have all this stress, and all this uncertainty, and all this frustration, and all these feelings that the devs are purposefully trying to sabotage the game, because so much in the game seems as if it could only derive from that sort of mindset- most especially due to Producer Rowan's recent guarantees that such matters [eg, bugs] would be given utmost priority, that the entire next update would be about them, that devs would focus on feedback, and work towards our desires, not ones picked at random by the management.

    Not a single one of those things has come to pass- we've heard no response on many things we've wanted added or looked into [from bugs, to kobolds/other races, to old content reviewed/rebalanced, etc.]

    All we needed on that end was confirmation that those matters had been put on the top of the list, as we were promised they would be if we responded to Rowan's gestures of goodwill.

    Okay;

    Not that, nor any signs of the game finding its balance again any time soon.



    Now, on to Lama-
    You bring out heroic/epic stones of XP.
    For reference, I have no personal feelings toward their addition either way, they are what they are.

    But now, review what I wrote above.

    Look at the timing.

    Look at how other MMOs function, and the things they- especially flash or browser-based money-grab-oriented MMOs- do right before they start spiraling downward.


    Now look at the proposed lama changes again.


    What should have just been a change to game mechanics, with this timing, comes off entirely as Turbine knowingly, willfully, and with finality, jumping the shark.

    It gives the impression that Turbine knows just how bad the bugs are, how bad all the issues in the game have gotten, how discontented we are, and how badly we feel we've been betrayed by Turbine in recent months [again, not due to any content changes, but due to inability to followup on promised stability reviews and provide acknowledgement of declared player content interest]-

    That Turbine is fully cognizant of all this, and instead wants to milk out as much money as possible from a dying game.


    Now, I'm not saying that's the case, nor am I saying that's an element inherent to the stones of XP themselves.



    But, the timing.


    It's really, really bad.


    And for those of us already so deeply concerned about the game, who've received no reassurances-
    it looks pretty awful.




    The point of this thread is 'hope', to bring things in balance between players and devs, and work toward a promising future for DDO.
    To give players a chance to stop holding their breath and breath in again.

    In other words, the input of players in this thread is more than welcome, but, at least in this thread, keep it entirely civil, respectful-toned.
    This is the spot where we hold out hope for a firm dev response, and the guarantee from Turbine that they will finally restructure in a way that they stop damaging relations with players [specifically in ways that other [quality] MMOs never do].

    And devs, this is your shot- not necessarily in this thread, but this is your shot to go and say "Hey. Look. We KNOW we screwed up. We might not realize the full specifics of it yet, but we do understand your concerns, and we're going to make sure to try and learn the specifics and fix them as best we can. We're going to address player concerns. We're going to worry about how the game comes across to players, and make sure it's something we- and the players- can take pride in. We're going to fight to keep this game going for several more years, as best as it can be.
    We're listening.
    We do care.
    We're not giving up on the game.
    Things will change-
    Now."
    Last edited by Dagolar; 10-26-2013 at 02:21 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xeraphim View Post
    Fly? That would break every quest in the game. You would see folks falling from the sky in Korthos and dying. It would be a rain of newbs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dandonk View Post
    Yeah. It's not "we nuked the city from orbit", it's "the city experienced a brief population drop". Check.

  2. #2
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    Nice post.

    *Edit*

    I was having a similar discussion with some Guildies the other week.

    Turbine seem to be sending some very weird mixed messages.

    On the one hand they're still adding stuff, (though one might question the value of what they're adding), which implies that the game still has some life left in it.

    On the other hand the game quality is spiraling down the drain and as you noted yourself there are many problems and it feels like they've simply given up. The feeling I get from these messages is almost like someone high up has said DDO has X time left before we shut it down, so milk what you can.
    Last edited by Archangel_666; 10-26-2013 at 04:18 AM.

  3. #3
    Community Member toaftoaf's Avatar
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    i think all they have left on staff is interns and people with very padded resumes.

  4. #4
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toaftoaf View Post
    i think all they have left on staff is interns and people with very padded resumes.
    Feather of Sun is really good at his job. It's the reason why he still has his job when so many other people were laid off at Turbine. And I know both of these things because he announced them himself.
    No one in the world ever gets what they want
    And that is beautiful
    Everybody dies frustrated and sad
    And that is beautiful

  5. #5
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagolar View Post
    Tons of us are stressed by an activity we once found relaxing.
    You're doing it wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  6. #6
    Community Member Antheal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    You're doing it wrong.
    No, Turbine are doing it wrong.
    If your "Known Issues" list needs a freaking scroll bar, then one of you needs to go.

  7. #7
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    What are you hoping to accomplish with the overly dramatic title?

    Do you really expect a Turbine rep to pop in here and say, "yes, we've given up on the game. "

    You make some valid points, but it's lost in the hyperbole, and the drama.

    if the game stresses you out, take a break. Reevaluate why you play and what your relationship with the game is.

    Take a deep breath and try not to lag out from Mabar. It will be okay.

  8. #8
    The Hatchery zwiebelring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    You're doing it wrong.
    You're trolling it wrong.
    Characters on Orien:
    Wanzer/ Klingtanz/ Incanta Superior/ Mercantus

  9. #9
    Community Member TekkenDevil's Avatar
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    OP this has always been the way Turbine functioned.

  10. #10
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zwiebelring View Post
    You're trolling it wrong.
    Actually I thought that was one of my better efforts.

    I've been studying Teh_Troll's technique.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  11. #11
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TekkenDevil View Post
    OP this has always been the way Turbine functioned.
    Yet you are still here, so they must be doing something right.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  12. #12
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TekkenDevil View Post
    OP this has always been the way Turbine functioned.
    It was a good troll.

  13. #13
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    But back on topic . . . as a person who's "been there and done that" I'm still having fun but playing a whole lot less than normal. If I've run 10 quests this week i'd be surprised.

    None of what Turbine has to offer will get me to spend ANY money.

    Give us more content and stop fixing systems that aren't broken.

  14. #14
    Community Member Veriden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    Feather of Sun is really good at his job. It's the reason why he still has his job when so many other people were laid off at Turbine. And I know both of these things because he announced them himself.
    Because everything every one says about themselves are true....

    "I'm good at my job." is an opinion, your boss and others may not think it true...I certainly don't think the loot changes were 'good'.

  15. #15
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    I don't think they've given up so much as they have been on a downward trend of interpreting their own metrics wrong. When they obviated old end game by obsoleting most of the epic items and expanding the cap into a place that had no content at 25 and again at 28 where there's nothing to do at all, and players left because of it. They left because there's nothing to do and nothing to aspire to do.

    They SHOULD have put a plan in place to buff all the old end game stuff up into level 25, and then 28 and eventually 30. But they didn't and people got to 25 and saw "hey nothing here but ED grind and one raid" and left. Same thing happened at 28... expansion pack? Actually that expansion pack is more like a 10 mile Freeway extention with an 70MPH speed limit that ends abruptly in NOWERE with nothing but a tiny dirt road exit that has a hand painted sign that says "back to TR and don't drive down this way again for a few years until the freeway gets a city built at the end of it".

    I have to think they interpreted this hemorrhaging of players incorrectly as some other problem, because if they had interpreted it correctly they would have had to admit to themselves that raising the cap without an end game in place at 25, was a mistake... They surely wouldn't have done it AGAIN compounding their mistake! And now the bleeding has gone on so long and the player base is approximately HALVED within about a year, that the upper management types have come down, and dictated things like the dumbed down loot mechanics, and these terribad Epic TR proposals. CAN YOU IMAGINE if they had sneaked them in like the random loot debacle!?

    Think about it, most of the bad stuff recently has non-gamer managerial type decisions written all over it. Where the Devs are sometimes a little distant in their focus accourding to the forums you can usually at least see how some subset of the player base might have wanted it (secret door changes, or sneaking improvements) you know flower sniffers versus power gamers stuff... But these recent choices have been managerial dictations made by MBA's written all over them. NO ONE liked the sound of these TR changes, literally NO ONE like new loot.

    I know people love to hate on Feather, but his loot was nothing if not flavor inspired (brony stuff? hello?) whether you hated that or not; this new random loot looks nothing like his past work and has MBA reading exit surveys about "confusing loot" and butting into design choices written all over them.

    I'm still playing and enjoying DDO but the present direction is not one I can get behind, and it's obviously not working for most players, as they keep leaving the game. Sadly until they figure out the ACTUAL reason they are losing so many players, they can't correct it. And they seem dead set on interpreting "low interest in epics and raids" to mean that end game and raids are unimportant... when the fact is those raids and that end game destination are important EVEN FOR PEOPLE THAT DON"T PLAY THEM. Because they exist as the "destination" for your character "when I'm ready" or "when my character has his past lives and gear"... even if only in the backs of players minds, "end game" needs to exist, or you're immediately in "what's there to do when I am finished with my character? Nothing that's relivant? Okay well lets look elsewhere".

    Even if the cake is a lie... there needs to be the promise of cake at the end.
    Last edited by IronClan; 10-26-2013 at 06:01 PM.
    You guys filibustering a new mode have already succeeded in scaring the Dev's into not doing it the right way and re-scaling the existing settings, why in the world are you still filibustering? Drunk on your success? Schadenfreude? Spitefulness?

  16. #16
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    I'm not going to quote that, because any post that quotes that will be deleted. It's a game, you need to stop treating this or any game that's not living up to your ideal like it killed your dog, and stole your girl. You obviously take games WAY too seriously and probably should have moved on to another game LONG before you got banned for making too many Globes... Opps did I just say that? LOL yes, yes I did. Because that anger aint only about a game not living up to your ideal... And your low post count + early join date matches the pattern of the other angry banned types posting on sock puppet spare accounts that they don't care about getting forum banned on.

    It's still a damn good game, a change in direction before all the servers are wayfinder like in activity levels is all we need. Buffing old end game up to 28-30 to be new end game until they can add to it would be a start... would keep people from leaving due to "there's nothing here to do at 28, oh well back to heroic TR". A little less TP and AS pushed in our faces would help, as they are definitely crossing over saturation lines, mine included, the reroll loot button was my line.

    You know them listening to the player base, lead to the Enhancement pass actually going off and being good right? Lots of listening happened, not enough to save Paladin and Bard PrE's but for the most part for the better. There was no NGE from the enhancements at least.... And it looks like the player base got them to avoid TWO TR related disasters before they were published. So in reality it looks like they might even be able to turn a corner, it might be that we're just still in the apex of the U-turn and we don't see the new direction yet. If they would only start listening a little PROACTIVELY instead of only listening reactively, it would be easier to see no doubt.

    No one will ever get the ideal DDO of their vision. But the good still outweighs the bad, I still had fun last night farming motes with fellow smart asses of Thelanis channel and completing dragons even with the lag, because we communicated, dumpped pets and only spammed area damage spells and pulled the lever when the dragon was in our chamber. When you're not having fun and YOU DON'T feel passionate enough about the game to wright a few paragraphs without insults, THEN yes you should find something else... The anger and the insults directed at those who still like the game however is ridiculous.
    Last edited by IronClan; 10-26-2013 at 07:17 PM.
    You guys filibustering a new mode have already succeeded in scaring the Dev's into not doing it the right way and re-scaling the existing settings, why in the world are you still filibustering? Drunk on your success? Schadenfreude? Spitefulness?

  17. #17
    Community Member HernandoCortez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    Feather of Sun is really good at his job. It's the reason why he still has his job when so many other people were laid off at Turbine. And I know both of these things because he announced them himself.
    I guess so. An example of his good job is the new lootgen. Shame it made pretty much every raid and epic item obsolete.
    EXTREME PREJUDICE™ - by Turbine.

    GHOSTBANE™ - by Turbine.

  18. #18
    Community Member Dagolar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    Feather of Sun is really good at his job. It's the reason why he still has his job when so many other people were laid off at Turbine. And I know both of these things because he announced them himself.
    If that's the dry humor it seems to be, it's heroically done. But then, I'm always a fan of dry humor and tongue-in-cheek.

    While this is edging the boundaries of the decorum I wanted to keep in this thread, it does clarify the issues we're having with current design outlooks.
    [Our] Satisfaction on content additions aside, we're seeing little response to our interests, and a fair bit of defensive self-congratulation-
    Or at the least, lest this post be taken insulting, that is the impression we're given, and certainly, things can easily be misinterpreted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xanthrawl View Post
    What are you hoping to accomplish with the overly dramatic title?

    Do you really expect a Turbine rep to pop in here and say, "yes, we've given up on the game. "

    You make some valid points, but it's lost in the hyperbole, and the drama.

    if the game stresses you out, take a break. Reevaluate why you play and what your relationship with the game is.

    Take a deep breath and try not to lag out from Mabar. It will be okay.


    For reference, I'm brain-damaged. Part of that is the destruction of full emotional contextualization.
    In other words, I can't purposefully express drama, or any emotional context [rage, despair, etc].
    I analyze and consider all things based off of 'stress' or 'not stress', as well as other non-emotional contextualization factors such as morality and quality of service.

    Those references aren't intended to be relevant to the topic, so don't read too much into it.

    However, in extension of the brain-damage, I can't write words the way I'd like, any longer. It's hard enough focusing on what I write, -especially- when I can't perceive emotional contexts in phrasing very well.

    My point being, please, if you have an issue with my phrasing, rewrite it, or at the very least, help me learn and grow.

    So, I'll yield you the hyperbole, intentional or no- I wouldn't be aware of it- but the drama, that'd be a matter of reader perception.

    As dramatic my post may seem, it really doesn't affect me too much, even though, given my circumstances, it's hard for me to play anything other than DDO or flash games these days- and so my pre-damage collection of hundreds of games sits idle :P

    Rather, if I'm conveying drama, it's because I wasn't aware of it, or because I, in what little reference points I can work off of, assumed it would be beneficial to expressing the topic suitably [correct assumption or not].

    Now, again- I can feel frustration and stress, so if THAT is conveyed, why, that's appropriate.

    Also, if you want to see a topic I -am- touchy about, it's this one, so please make comments only relevant as to how this relates to the game, not about my circumstances directly. It'd be appreciated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firepants View Post
    My take is, if you find yourself writing more than a couple small paragraphs about a game, you need to stop playing the game.
    Doesn't really affect me either way. There was some effort to start on the post, but putting an effort into something you enjoy is always worth it- to a degree, of course. As for the length of the writing, it comes out as it comes out. A benefit of not being able to put much awareness into what you're writing- though, as noted by the poster quoted above, that has its share of issues, of course.

    Naturally, I have no need to make a post similar to this one in the future; that'd be the point of irrationality: What's said is said, and things happen as they happen. That'd be the point where you could make your assertion- though, as noted, it won't be available for such.



    Quote Originally Posted by Firepants View Post
    The devs suck [...continued..] they have marching orders and that's all that matters.
    Going to respond to that the only way I can.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firepants View Post
    Step back for a second and take a breath. Now, look at that manifesto of an original post. [..] Kindof crazy too.
    --

    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    When you're not having fun and YOU DON'T feel passionate enough about the game to wright a few paragraphs without insults, THEN yes you should find something else... The anger and the insults directed at those who still like the game however is ridiculous.
    I found this well put.
    [Though I admittedly had a little trouble sorting through what you wrote in the rest of your message (due to formatting). ]
    Last edited by Dagolar; 10-26-2013 at 08:38 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xeraphim View Post
    Fly? That would break every quest in the game. You would see folks falling from the sky in Korthos and dying. It would be a rain of newbs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dandonk View Post
    Yeah. It's not "we nuked the city from orbit", it's "the city experienced a brief population drop". Check.

  19. #19
    Community Member Dagolar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HernandoCortez View Post
    I guess so. An example of his good job is the new lootgen. Shame it made pretty much every raid and epic item obsolete.
    Prior to my current circumstances, I spent over a decade in game design.
    This approach you describe runs contrary to everything I ever learned or implemented in that time.

    However, it's the manner in which our considerations on the matter- regardless of individual points of perspective- are being dismissed [with that sort of seeming defensive arrogance when not complete lack of response] that makes me have issues with the current implementation.

    In other words, it's a matter of dev presentation of their viewpoints over content changes themselves- regardless if I intellectually agree with those changes or not ;P

    But, yes: There is a lot of new content being added, even if the manner in which it is done is awkward, that is fun and invigorating to the game.

    If we can hold out hope for consistency and stability returning to the game -at some point-, then certainly, there shouldn't be any problem with the current changes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xeraphim View Post
    Fly? That would break every quest in the game. You would see folks falling from the sky in Korthos and dying. It would be a rain of newbs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dandonk View Post
    Yeah. It's not "we nuked the city from orbit", it's "the city experienced a brief population drop". Check.

  20. #20
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firepants View Post
    Step back for a second and take a breath. Now, look at that manifesto of an original post. Nice. Kindof crazy too. My take is, if you find yourself writing more than a couple small paragraphs about a game, you need to stop playing the game. Obviously it's no longer working for you. Happened to me too. So I found another game, it's fun as hell and new to me which is probably why it's fun. DDO is a beat up old pair of jeans that keep getting stitched back together but always fall apart. It's a waste of time to play this abortion that wears the badge of Dungeons & Dragons while brazenly being nothing but that in name.

    The devs suck balls, always have, because Turbine only cares for money, so they churn out a piece of **** that's just engaging enough to get people into it, wrap that piece of **** in the credibility of a pre-existing intellectual property and now they have an instant userbase of chumps and rubes. So here you are, rube, will you stay a rube and continue to convince yourself that this steaming pile of a game will get somehow "fixed"? Or are you gonna pack it in, flip the bird, and go find something that isn't a piece of **** to play. Turbine is staffed by worthless louts who purposefully avoid player interaction because they all know they couldn't give two ***** what you guys think, they have marching orders and that's all that matters.
    I think you need to stop holding back, it's unhealthy to keep it all inside.

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