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  1. #1

    Default I was wrong OR Teh Troll showed me the light

    Not so long ago, some players expressed the opinion that all this work on the reincarnation system was a total waste of time.
    They thought the programmers' time would be better spent creating a second raid for 2013.

    At the time, I strongly opposed this point of view.
    I felt that these few months were the reincarnation fan's moment of glory.
    Time to review and recode and create.

    After a great deal of pitchforks, the new framework for reincarnation does look well structured.
    Which is a good thing, right?

    But when one reviews the rewards associated with it, one pauses deeply and ponders.

    The Troll and Fawn agree, these rewards are weak straw carrots.

    The Troll preaches on, that if the rewards are worthless, then the whole system is worthless.
    Rewards must influence people to want them, and thereby work for them.
    Without true rewards, not weak or broken, the framework holding them is naught.

    A highly designed and decorated market stall trying to sell garbage is pointless wealth wasted on improper marketing.

    If the perfect framework of the system is wasted then the DDO developers could have spent the same time on something else.

    Something like another raid.

    In full circle, I see that I was wrong.

    In full circle, I see a dead end instead of a new beginning.



    Ah, but the rewards can be adjusted?

    Yes, just like completionist could be made an auto granted feat, but I will believe it when I see it...





    Agree or disagree with me, but please make your voice heard or forever hold your peace:

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    We're very happy to have you guys fill out Surveys for Reincarnation!

    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...414630-Surveys

    Thanks. We'll be reviewing these on Monday, so please fill them out this weekend if you can!

  2. #2
    Community Member SilkofDrasnia's Avatar
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    Haha nicely said!
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    Insulting the development team is not allowed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jendrak
    Somebody should definitely explain to Turbine that when they roll up a new GM that INT is not dump stat.

  3. #3
    Community Member Lonnbeimnech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silverleafeon View Post
    Without true rewards, not weak or broken, the framework holding them is naught.
    Could say the same thing about raid loot that's outclassed by lootgen.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnbeimnech View Post
    Could say the same thing about raid loot that's outclassed by lootgen.
    Or quest XP that is lower than others in the similar or lower level range, although the lower XP quest is longer/harder than the good XP quest. (Yes, I'm talking about the poor XP in the recent quests on Heroic, especially the Shadowfell "expansion" compared the Vale quests.)

    This is also the reason that most players try to get to level 20 as soon as possible, so they can get great XP with easy effort and avoid the upper heroic quests that are harder and just a fraction of the XP.

  5. #5
    Community Member Ykt's Avatar
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    Break old things, make people do new things to replace old things.

  6. #6
    Community Member Ellihor's Avatar
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    Just wanted to say 90% of what the_troll and other trolls in the forums are actually not trolling and bring the most valid points. The rest 10% are trolling to ridicularize the stupid posters and i pretty much support it.

  7. #7
    Hero
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    Respect! I also agree. Something is off balance-wise.

    This is kind of the general flow I go thru in my head when seeing if I like something:

    The XP gained (grind) should accurately represent the rewards (PL's) relative strengthen. Currently the rewards are woefully lacking.

    The relative strength of the PL's should adequately represent the difficulty of content. With a few exceptions, content is fairly easy.

    Content difficulty should adequately represent Experience points rewarded for for completing said content.

    In an ideal world they should all be more-or-less equal. (alternatively you can read from top to bottom, or bottom to the top and it would read the same.) But they are far from it here with DDO, what's broken? I don't know I'm not a designer, but I can tell something is broken.

  8. #8
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    Well put. The one that, really made me laugh was the plus 2 ac bonus.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by dragon2fire View Post
    Well put. The one that, really made me laugh was the plus 2 ac bonus.
    TRing may be the most profitable part of the game based on item sales in the DDO Store. But the game cannot be based on TRing - if you TR for no reason other than to TR, it becomes obviously very hollow very fast.

    The game and a desire to play the game has to be based on good and progressive content. The difficulty level, content and itemisation of that content has greatly let Turbine down.... which leads to so many people quitting the game.

    The fix isn't to make the TR systems more powerful, which I think is what you are subliminally asking for. The fix is to make game content which people (a) want to play and (b) aspire to play. That means both valuable rewards that take time and sufficient difficulty that it is not handed out on a plate.

  10. #10

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    There is so much that's broken with ER or IR. The rewards are lackluster, the target to ER or IR borderline nuts and the valor debacle is mind boggling. Ontop of that off destiny leveling from 20-28 in a absurd karma system for absurd reasons like 'so we can add more destinies in the future'. I just don't see the connection.

    There are so many improvements that can be done including adding Epic past life feats that feel epic (to me they just feel like really good for heroic leveling which is not really what they were meant to be.)

    But we know that Turbine will end releasing it anyways with a promise to 'fix it later' and onto the next half baked system we fly.

  11. #11
    Community Member kned225's Avatar
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    As long as the system is sound, the rest can be tinkered with. I think if they find nobody is etr-ing, they'll adjust the rewards

    Starting low and adjusting up is always preferable to the opposite

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silverleafeon View Post
    Not so long ago, some players expressed the opinion that all this work on the reincarnation system was a total waste of time.
    They thought the programmers' time would be better spent creating a second raid for 2013.

    At the time, I strongly opposed this point of view.
    I felt that these few months were the reincarnation fan's moment of glory.
    Time to review and recode and create.

    After a great deal of pitchforks, the new framework for reincarnation does look well structured.
    Which is a good thing, right?

    But when one reviews the rewards associated with it, one pauses deeply and ponders.

    The Troll and Fawn agree, these rewards are weak straw carrots.

    The Troll preaches on, that if the rewards are worthless, then the whole system is worthless.
    Rewards must influence people to want them, and thereby work for them.
    Without true rewards, not weak or broken, the framework holding them is naught.

    A highly designed and decorated market stall trying to sell garbage is pointless wealth wasted on improper marketing.

    If the perfect framework of the system is wasted then the DDO developers could have spent the same time on something else.

    Something like another raid.

    In full circle, I see that I was wrong.

    In full circle, I see a dead end instead of a new beginning.

    Ah, but the rewards can be adjusted?

    Yes, just like completionist could be made an auto granted feat, but I will believe it when I see it...

    Agree or disagree with me, but please make your voice heard or forever hold your peace:
    I don't want a tr system where the rewards are so significant such that there is clear powergap between those that have-done and those that haven't. Tr rewards should be a small bonus that are nice, but not necessary. Tr should be something you do if you like to replay content or try new things while releveling instead of endgame questing. Since you don't get endgame loot re-levelling the alternative small bonuses make sense.

    Instead, Turbine's proposal is a forced grind system where tr is the game and there is no endgame in sight.

    Why does the current epic tr proposal have the possibility of stacking 9 lives in each sphere? Of course the rewards will be small, if they weren't they could become unbalanced very quickly. I thought the idea was a single past life in each of the 9 epic destinies. Instead of the likely useless 9 x +5AC for one gajillion xp, why can't it just be a single one-time bonus (eg. +20 AC) for one of the epic destinies (fighter?) and done? Why do they feel the hamster wheel has to continually turn?

    Then back to raids and the endgame stuff....oh wait, none of that exists.
    Thelanis:
    Annikka (Sorc), Dannikka (F), Jannikka (Rgr)
    Tamikka (Bard), Famikka (Rgr)
    Bellynda (Cl), Mellynda (M)

  13. #13
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ellihor View Post
    Just wanted to say 90% of what the_troll and other trolls in the forums are actually not trolling and bring the most valid points. The rest 10% are trolling to ridicularize the stupid posters and i pretty much support it.
    I troll while making valid points. It takes practice.

  14. #14
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    I troll while making valid points. It takes practice.
    I rate this a 0.5 out of 10. You can absolutely do better.
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

  15. #15
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fafnir View Post
    TRing may be the most profitable part of the game based on item sales in the DDO Store. But the game cannot be based on TRing - if you TR for no reason other than to TR, it becomes obviously very hollow very fast.

    The game and a desire to play the game has to be based on good and progressive content. The difficulty level, content and itemisation of that content has greatly let Turbine down.... which leads to so many people quitting the game.

    The fix isn't to make the TR systems more powerful, which I think is what you are subliminally asking for. The fix is to make game content which people (a) want to play and (b) aspire to play. That means both valuable rewards that take time and sufficient difficulty that it is not handed out on a plate.
    Exactly it.

    Back in the day when there was an end-game TRing was to prepare for it, to be stronger at it. There was a brass-ring . . . epics and elite raids. You had something to aim for. Even if you didn't run epics you knew there was other stuff out there that you needed to get more powerful so that you could handle it.

    Now? There really is no end-game. TRing just for the sake of TRing . . . doesn't make any sense. I mean don't get me wrong, I've done I think 7 lives in the first half of this year because it was fun and it let me fix my toons in the changing game . . . but TRing in a STATIC game where I'm already powerful enough to handle pretty much everything . . . whats the point?

    I had a 32-point raid tank that was able to handle ANYTHING the game could throw at me . . . then we got hit with the LoB. ARGGHHHHHH . . . . back to the drawing board, make some gear changes, TR into a better build because the game forced me to. Do the same thing when Lolth comes out (yes, I know it's not needed but my guilds EE CiTWs were a hell of a lot easier with my tank intiming all the trash int he optionals) and I have to make him more powerful again . . .

    Next thing we know tanks are useless . . . what is the point in me investing anymore in this toon?

    TL: DR: hjeal meh. Oh, and build a good end-game and people will TR to get more powerful for it.

  16. #16

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    The Troll shows me the light again.

    Yes, I see...



    We do look at end game and then figure out what we need to be what we want to be.


    A bit of rambling on my part, pardon if it drifts, cause its seems to me that whatever is decided is quite important:

    Fawngate is currently trying to see if with all her past lives she can CC EE.
    EH CC is very solid, but EE is another matter entirely, still working on that.
    Can a triple completionist with archmage / magistar / +5 items do EE CC, the verdict is still out?

    None of the rewards offered contain DC increments, and that is fine with me.
    I'm trying to find out how a toon that has almost everything needed can do?


    So far players I talk to are either,
    the new system is terrible
    or
    its not bad, but certainly not worth grinding for
    either one is a thumbs down on actually working towards it
    nowhere do I see someone excited and eager to start working on it



    A few players, maybe eight in DDO simply grind it all out like a mountain that waits to be climbed.
    Of those eight or so, one might only like heroics, one might be offended by a system that is rated terrible to ok but not worth grinding for,
    one is going to grind it out, one may be offended by the unknown, and four might think anything.

    All those players have maybe one sixth of a billion xp, only a part of them will evolve into the half billion xp toon?


    Is the half billion xp toon becoming a monster in the Devs and players minds?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShE27Hst_NM
    Is it something to fear?
    How many will exist?
    Will the Devs adjust the how game towards them?

    I'm worried about the middle guy.
    Not the first lifer, not the uber completionist, but the middle of the road typical player.
    At least I try to have the bird's eye point of view.
    If I was selfish, I would resent various things happening, but I welcome others gaining
    what I have gained with less effort saying, the more the merrier.

    I like the toggle idea, it rewards a certain amount of work in an area with a one time bonus.
    But these toggles are very weak if they are supposed to be much more powerful than the passive bonuses.

    I like the AC and PPR stacking additions but honestly so many players say its nice but not worth grinding for.

    You could offer anything to a small few and they would do it, not for the rewards, but simply to try out new builds.
    Look at the admired Star who is on his 44th? life, just experimenting with new things and playing for the sake of playing.
    Last edited by Silverleafeon; 10-28-2013 at 06:25 PM.

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fafnir View Post
    TRing may be the most profitable part of the game based on item sales in the DDO Store. But the game cannot be based on TRing - if you TR for no reason other than to TR, it becomes obviously very hollow very fast...
    A few players TR just to TR, but even they look to what the final end game build will be. I have people ask me often, "What will your final build be?"

    ....The fix is to make game content which people (a) want to play and (b) aspire to play. That means both valuable rewards that take time and sufficient difficulty that it is not handed out on a plate.
    Well said.
    I hope the Devs focus on this.

    Quote Originally Posted by patang01 View Post
    There are so many improvements that can be done including adding Epic past life feats that feel epic (to me they just feel like really good for heroic leveling which is not really what they were meant to be.)

    But we know that Turbine will end releasing it anyways with a promise to 'fix it later' and onto the next half baked system we fly.
    These are my fears too.
    Quote Originally Posted by kned225 View Post
    ...Starting low and adjusting up is always preferable to the opposite
    We shall see very soon.
    Recent podcast had Glin, Cordovan, and Torelo live chat indicating a lot of Dev discussion going on right now...
    Quote Originally Posted by RobbinB View Post
    Instead of the likely useless 9 x +5AC for one gajillion xp, why can't it just be a single one-time bonus (eg. +20 AC) for one of the epic destinies (fighter?) and done? Why do they feel the hamster wheel has to continually turn?...
    This is why the very weak Toggles need to be vastly increased and expanded.
    How about a +20 AC toggle?
    The Toggles are an ingenious one time limited TR effort bonus, they should be so much better.

    Also, Past lives need to scale ~ heroic, paragon, epic, level 30 end game.
    Quote Originally Posted by voodoogroves View Post
    I rate this a 0.5 out of 10. You can absolutely do better.
    Fawn giggles...
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Exactly it.....

    TL: DR: hjeal meh. Oh, and build a good end-game and people will TR to get more powerful for it.
    Casts quickened enlarged empowered heal Cocoon and hopes the Devs never touch that twist cause I would be very sad if they nerfed it...

  18. #18
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Right now, there is really nothing to aim for. I've been revolving-door TRing since the cap was announced to go to 28. No point farming gear, no point aiming at any particular goal as that cap increase made it even thinner content-wise at the top.

    Pre-MOTU had tons to do "at cap" - some easier than others, but all nominally "at cap". It's going to take a bit to make the content (quests, gear, raids, etc.) relevant in the same quantity at 28 (and soon 30). Frankly, the biggest reason I'd still TR is that 28 is now just a placeholder - you can probably spot some of the items that will still be nice once the cap hits 30, but other than that there isn't much to bother about.

    Until there is something meaningful, expansive and fun to do at cap TRing needs to be easy to qualify to keep some folks playing and spending cash.
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

  19. #19

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    Honestly, I find the most fault in the system being the WEAK toggles.
    These are the middle ground gold mine.

  20. #20
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    100% on target

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