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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by taurean430 View Post
    So, let's say for starters, Monks (which achieve dc's I've seen in the range of 9 and up to 20 above my caster). They move 3 times faster too, with built in 'wings'. If things were as you say here, Monks, Wiz, Sorc, Any tactical dc user, Clerics, FvS, Druid would all have dc's in their varying abilities that leave them with a 40% unilateral success chance. As this is not the case, this argument can now be considered debunked.

    So it is what it is.
    For starters draw a line with single most OP class atm. Forget to mention casters have an entire book of spells to use.

    Quote Originally Posted by taurean430 View Post
    This is not true. Well built melee/ranged are getting frequent crits in 19,000+ range by using their ed abilities and good gear. Casters in the same situation are seeing 1/2 to 3/4ths of that. But a melee can swing all day long. A caster is limited by his/her blue bar.
    Mention top melee crits. Insinuate these are "frequent". Don't compare with spell cooldown!

    Quote Originally Posted by taurean430 View Post
    Less sla opportunities, lower success rate, higher grind requirement, less hp, less surviveability, less damage. That is what Turbine has done to the arcane and divine casters by listening exclusively to whining melee only players.
    Don't mention every build in the game gets multiclassed atm for the similar reason. Whining melee rly had no bussines complaining right after they lifted old epic ward!
    NESALOMLJIVI, Thelanis

  2. #22
    Community Member taurean430's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PrimalConcreteSledge View Post
    For starters draw a line with single most OP class atm. Forget to mention casters have an entire book of spells to use.
    Are you referring to the spellbook that is 1/2 to 9/10's full of spells of no use? The ones taken out of consideration by any knowledgeable caster due to systems and game changes from MOTD on up?



    Mention top melee crits. Insinuate these are "frequent". Don't compare with spell cooldown!
    Those are not 'top' crits. I've done better, frequently on my melee. A low end decent crit from my ESOS weilder can happen 9 times or more in the cooldown phase of my caster's wail/finger or my divine's implosion/destruction. Which, not surprisingly in the current game environment, don't land.



    Don't mention every build in the game gets multiclassed atm for the similar reason. Whining melee rly had no bussines complaining right after they lifted old epic ward!
    Been multiclassing since 08'. This is not new.
    Khyber: Evandus, Halfdeadd, Licoricewhip, Sawyn, Elkabongg, Brothanumsi, Soulbro, Cromix.
    And an army of gimp experiments!

  3. #23
    The Hatchery Scraap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Or, instead of the simplistic math problem, give the mobs reasonable saves and then add AI to have EE clerics cast mass DW within seconds of any mob near them aggroing on a PC. Then the caster in your party would try to snipe the clerics (an act of player skill, not just math) or, if they can't target and kill the cleric in time, as a second option switches to CC thanks to saves not being super high.

    But be careful! The arcane mob might follow that up with a circle against evil, foiling the player cleric's plans at greater command. Doh, now here comes FOM to prevent holds. That dirty stinking mob ranger just threw an FOM on the arcane! The nerve! I know, I'll throw up a dancing ball. That'll show em...alright, the now-deathwarded wizard just cyclonic blasted my dball to kingdom come. Gah!

    How about all EE mobs, as an effect of being EE, get a 20% chance at creation of wearing a deathblock item? Each instance, each newly created mob gets that roll. This means you never know which mobs will be immune to insta-kill. Maybe this encourages trap the soul? Lord knows extra variety for DC casting wouldn't hurt.

    There are ways to make it not a simple math problem.
    Seriously though, how has this not been quoted 15 times by now?

    Alternatively:
    Tack on 6 bits per mob object-instance.
    Take 90% effectiveness as no-fail for an at-level fully kitted out caster.
    Use those 6 bits and roll 1d4 per save on mob creation on top of a baseline reference.

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by taurean430 View Post
    Are you referring to the spellbook that is 1/2 to 9/10's full of spells of no use? The ones taken out of consideration by any knowledgeable caster due to systems and game changes from MOTD on up?
    Y i mean that spellbook. What about it? Less spells than monk abilites?



    Quote Originally Posted by taurean430 View Post
    Those are not 'top' crits. I've done better, frequently on my melee. A low end decent crit from my ESOS weilder can happen 9 times or more in the cooldown phase of my caster's wail/finger or my divine's implosion/destruction. Which, not surprisingly in the current game environment, don't land.


    Been multiclassing since 08'. This is not new.
    All you need then is adrenaline or blitz. Close but not quite bullseye.

    Or are your normal crits 19k on average? Idk you sound very uber.

    Since '08 much has changed. New is the fact that multiclassing is now mandatory. Welcome to U19.
    NESALOMLJIVI, Thelanis

  5. #25
    Community Member taurean430's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PrimalConcreteSledge View Post
    Y i mean that spellbook. What about it? Less spells than monk abilites?
    Less abilities than any other class without heavy multiclassing actually. A master of magic being a master of missed dc's with maxed out potential is not D&D. Leaving casters of all types one unconventional option to remain viable isn't D&D either. The purpose of say, Heighten, for example is to bring up the level of a lesser spell, yes? Which, would allow someone to use a lesser level spell with some effectiveness in higher level content, right? That example already has an opportunity cost in sp factored into it, correct? So, in that example what use is this meta when the dc's available from it's use are ineffective?





    All you need then is adrenaline or blitz. Close but not quite bullseye.
    Correct. As little as first life with ED's outkills, outdamages, outlasts, and outperforms a max potential dc caster with ED's. Thank you for clarifying yet another imbalance point.

    Or are your normal crits 19k on average? Idk you sound very uber.
    This sounds like you are spending more energy trying to find a way to personally attack me as opposed to considering my points. Won't get you very far really


    Since '08 much has changed. New is the fact that multiclassing is now mandatory. Welcome to U19.
    Is that right? So, the multiclasses I ran that were completely self sufficient back then didn't exist? Or, are you going for the obvious in stating that a toon with ED's with the *exact same 08' platform* performs better?
    Khyber: Evandus, Halfdeadd, Licoricewhip, Sawyn, Elkabongg, Brothanumsi, Soulbro, Cromix.
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  6. #26
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scraap View Post
    OK, serious reply: I'd far rather explain how to take care of yourself to randomnoobpugger378 after the fight than after I've drug them back to the shrine.

    /back to your regularly scheduled over-the-top humorposts.
    Play whatever way you want, but you're the one that wanted to make a deal about my first response.

    Edit: and for as Over the Top you thought my post was, it has sadly serious overtones. In Heroic content casters are insanely over powered, but for years the people who play them have zero sympathy or remorse for what melee's have to deal with, and cite "drink a pot" or other such rude commentary. If that type of mindset and belief can hold true for the many years that it has held, then it can hold true for the post Epic Game. Would it have not agitated you so much if I said something like: If you think melee is so grand, swap in some melee levels or use a Melee focused ED, it's as simple as that.
    Last edited by Ungood; 10-26-2013 at 04:09 PM.

  7. #27
    Community Member TekkenDevil's Avatar
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    Said it once here, will say it again, we NEED Spells to be updated and to land much more easily, both on the Divine and Arcane side.
    Reduce the effectiveness of current favorites like Disco Ball and up the effectiveness of everything else, in order to balance things out and introduce variety, which leads to replay value, which means longer lifespan of DDO players.

    Also, please return perfect, equal balance to all elemental spells like it was a year ago. I want to roll Acid or Force sorcs that are just as effective throughout the game as Fire or Cold.

    I don't care about spell crits. I'm tired of 80% of the spells in the game nerfing your character if you prepare them. It makes caster toons be Elitist, Min/Max MLG centric and no fun allowed.

  8. #28
    Community Member Ellihor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by archerforever View Post
    could be nice but ED are for everyone and the shiradi is not that bad and is really good for casters
    This EDs are for everyone talk is pure bs. Take shiradi for example it only works for arcanes and somewhat for ranged. Now lets talk about exalted angel...


    Quote Originally Posted by archerforever View Post
    seriously ? u wanna improve shiradi damages and wanna reduce the proc to only 1/spell ?? i dont get it
    If you ever bothered to read it as a whole you would understand but you are too dumb for that so ill explain: need to buff the damage to make it viable for ranged and make it work only 1/spell to kill the shiradi arcanes builds, that all.

    Quote Originally Posted by archerforever View Post
    WHAT ARE U TALKING ABOUT ??!!!!! HERE we are speaking about WIZARDS DC and power !!! SO you want to nerf archers to do NO DAMAGES and make them useless as earlier in DDO to feel better with ur ( bad )caster and feel like u have a big one ??? lol.... YOU ARE SO SELFISH and i dont think u ever played or tryed to play an archer
    Same as above, understand the post as a whole. First you buff shiradi to make it viable destiny for ranged chars, than you nerf fury. BTW dont attack the poster, attack the argument. Talking about what i have played or not makes you look silly, i dont have to give you explanations about my chars.

    Quote Originally Posted by archerforever View Post
    ANOTHER TIME, WHAT ARE U TALKING ABOUT ??!!!!! HERE we are speaking about WIZARDS DC and power !!! SO you want to nerf ALL OTHER CLASS IN THE GAME to do NO DAMAGES and make them useless in DDO to feel better with ur caster (that must be really BAD in fact) and feel like u have a big ***** ??? lol.... YOU ARE SO SELFISH and i dont think u ever played or tryed to play something else than ur underpowered and understuffed wizard adventurer...
    So, in your definition blitz 6 is no damage, right. not going to post more about you attacking my chars ok man, i dont have to clarify that for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by archerforever View Post
    maybe too much, i know wizards/sorc/bads/druids in EE that success all their spells.... another time, it s not cause YOU are bad that everyone else is....
    Depends what is a success for you. For me its the % of succes we had in u14-15. Abother time these attacks are silly.

    Quote Originally Posted by archerforever View Post
    ANOTHER TIME, YOUR ARE SO SELFISH, the only thing you want is a wizard that can insta kill everything, you want all other players/class to be useless and weak, and for sure you want to be the only wizard like this on the server
    Sorry but who is being selfish here is you. You keep talking chit about me you dont even know you dont know my chars etc, and keep doing silly accusations and /nerdrage turn caps on. Now i laughed, how are you are "sure" about what i want?


    Quote Originally Posted by archerforever View Post
    FINALLY YOU JUST ASK A +10 DC ( 5 for free with core magister + 3 with "must have intel +6" + 2 with the SELFISH EXCLUSIVE TIER 6 casters ED ) for only 6+2= 8 ED points..... and you want to reduce damages from archers by 75% and reduce the power of legendary dreadnought by 40% and make it harder to use .... what a genious you are !!! ( ironic )
    Arches are getting other options to do damage. Blitz is OP and needs to be nerfed. Now about the dcs, no, I gave a lot of suggestions to help open the ideas of what could be made. Some are connecte as I explained above (and you refused to understand) and other can be implemented alone.
    Last edited by Ellihor; 10-26-2013 at 05:45 PM. Reason: Broken [quote] and [/quote]

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by taurean430 View Post
    So, let's say for starters, Monks
    Monks are terrifically wonderfully OP at all levels and literally are the only class in the game where they can go from splash class, to deep multiclass and all the way around 360 flipside to pure class, and still have the best of all worlds almost doesn't matter how you build it. And this was true BEFORE the enhancement pass when they got even more buffs and flexibility (GM stances with 1 monk level, Kensei synergy, massively expanded "monk weapons" from Ninja Spy and the aforementioned Kensei, Dex to hit and Damage, Quivering Palm etc. etc.). So yes they are the best case scenario for a Melee closing the gap and doing DPS in competition with a Ranged or Caster character. Yet unless they are simply off zerging, they are still not getting to a group of mobs before my enlarged for free SLA's and their payload of Shiradi cluster bombs.


    Quote Originally Posted by taurean430 View Post
    The missing crit multipliers is indeed part of the equation. However what's more significant imo is the abundant increases in mob hp/saves. A nuker with or without top gear gets saved against on their attempts regularly. Mobs that supposedly have weak saves targeted take half damage, or none if they have evasion in some cases.
    For now adapting to that is where it's at, this will change it always does, it wasn't long ago that Nuking was 100% gimp at every difficulty, the very idea of nuking was ridiculed on the forums as the past time of flavor builds and people who chugged 2 SP pots between every shrine. DC casting was king at every difficulty and for a long period of time.

    Quote Originally Posted by taurean430 View Post
    This is not true. Well built melee/ranged are getting frequent crits in 19,000+ range by using their ed abilities and good gear. Casters in the same situation are seeing 1/2 to 3/4ths of that. But a melee can swing all day long. A caster is limited by his/her blue bar.
    It's true because I specifically said "it's not exactly balanced but it's better than EH" and I mentioned that Nukers can get a payload of Shirdai Cluster bombs off before any melee (that's not off zerging by himself) of course this is ignoring that Melee's are not getting 19k crits every time as Forum hyperbole loves to exaggerate Perma Blitz and Perma Fury.

    Quote Originally Posted by taurean430 View Post
    A Shiradi, or high/max dc Draconic caster can be competive and even surpass melee by using low level, multi procing spells. He's not referencing them in terms of dc casting. It appears here that you are citing a specific subset not related to the subject matter to counter his assertion. That seems disingenuous to me.
    You mean like how you opened up with Monk as the example of how all Melee builds can close the gap at the speed of a Chain Missle (of course even Monks can't do that but whatever)?

    Honestly I don't bring them up as a COUNTER at all; I bring them up as the factual state of how things are in the game, and also WHY they kinda need to be that way (though maybe not quite to the degree it currently is).

    I'm totally okay with them relaxing a couple points of saves off the highest EE mobs saves just as soon as Turbine gives Nukers back their .5 multipliers on Superior lore and .10 enhancement increments, in their casting trees... And while they are at it, instead of stacking Spell power procs (Scourge, Savant Vulnerabilities etc.) giving 20-30% spell power, make those .2 to .3 Crit multiplier so we can actually FEEL that power increase as opposed to right now, barely being perceptible without a spreadsheet to show the elevated average damage when you've got a full stack.

    I bring up Nuking because it's the way for a Caster to be viable AND survivable in EE, and because for a SHORT WHILE in the history of the game Nuking is actually the more viable casting focus in the hardest content... a VERY short while.

    Less sla opportunities, lower success rate, higher grind requirement, less hp, less surviveability, less damage. That is what Turbine has done to the arcane and divine casters by listening exclusively to whining melee only players.
    Why blame melee? (it's funny in one Thread you'll see Melee held up as hoplessly behind Casters, and on another they are the king of the heap lol) Past mid level they are all but Pikers in lower level content. They actually have to get close to the mobs, they take the brunt of the damage, they don't get Displacement until they build greensteel clickies or UMD very short duration scrolls constantly, and typically take 5 to 10 times longer to kill a mob, this changes with Blitz and Fury, (but again those aren't always on in the real game) but honestly Ranged is so powerful now in the case of a couple select builds, that if Melee DON'T have this power then they are just meat sacks with no purpose that take a MASSIVE DPS hit every time they are running up to a Mob (doing no damage during that time). A mob that's ALWAYS already being killed by a ranged or a DC or a Nuking caster. I have multiple melee's (I have alts of every major playstyle) with Leap/step and high speed... I can't tell you how many times my speed and wings/step get me to a Mob that A) just died B) will die as I swing at it C) will die with a red finger over it's head after I take one swing, D) will die with a red finger over it's head after I take two swings E) will die with a red finger over it's head RIGHT WHEN I'M ABOUT TO KILL IT F) substitute icy shatter of a Polar ray for Red Finger for F), G) and H).

    If you think Melee are King just because in the hardest content within the confines of having a charged ED like Fury they can crit for 20k (most a lot less than that), I disagree, even if they are off zerging way ahead. (Which is not exactly common practice in EE).

    So, let's take away and continue to hold at bay a high level caster's ability to land dc based spells? Instead encourage more people to join the Shiradi bandwagon and multiclass with FvS splits ala 'the new thing?' Can you not see how wrong this is?
    For much of the games history Nuking has been totally non-viable... do an archival search here with the date set to pre-motu and search words: nuking viable, now go back a year and keep reading the first couple threads that pop up. I think you'll need to go back to before the Cap was 20 to find people talking about "nuking" being "viable". IIRC like when the cap was 10-ish. Yet here we are DC casting being a faceroll in EH and non viable IN SELECT EE QUESTS and it's "can you not see how wrong this is"?

    That said I agree they should shave a couple points off the hardest EE mobs saves. and Raise all EH mobs by a handful, Just as long as they give us spell crits that are more than just the meh double damage ones we're capped at now.

    BTW on the subject of multiclassing to be more viable in EE, lets not pretend that only casters need to do this... Ranged EE builds are almost exclusively deep multiclasses, lots of Monkchers for example, Casters are highly Shiradi multi SLA (read possibly more than one casting class) either having Pali levels or Monk levels or both (BTW that's my new Radio name Highly Shiradi, shout out to all my peep's it's the morning zoo with Highly Shiradi LOL), and Melee's are almost never pure classed... Most of them have some Monk levels, at least. And many are taking levels so they can bring their own healing.
    You guys filibustering a new mode have already succeeded in scaring the Dev's into not doing it the right way and re-scaling the existing settings, why in the world are you still filibustering? Drunk on your success? Schadenfreude? Spitefulness?

  10. #30
    Community Member Ellihor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    For now adapting to that is where it's at, this will change it always does, it wasn't long ago that Nuking was 100% gimp at every difficulty, the very idea of nuking was ridiculed on the forums as the past time of flavor builds and people who chugged 2 SP pots between every shrine. DC casting was king at every difficulty and for a long period of time.
    When is long ago? Nuking has been very effective since savants came out, and its been.. years.

    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Why blame melee? (it's funny in one Thread you'll see Melee held up as hoplessly behind Casters, and on another they are the king of the heap lol) Past mid level they are all but Pikers in lower level content. They actually have to get close to the mobs, they take the brunt of the damage, they don't get Displacement until they build greensteel clickies or UMD very short duration scrolls constantly, and typically take 5 to 10 times longer to kill a mob, this changes with Blitz and Fury, (but again those aren't always on in the real game) but honestly Ranged is so powerful now in the case of a couple select builds, that if Melee DON'T have this power then they are just meat sacks with no purpose that take a MASSIVE DPS hit every time they are running up to a Mob (doing no damage during that time). A mob that's ALWAYS already being killed by a ranged or a DC or a Nuking caster. I have multiple melee's (I have alts of every major playstyle) with Leap/step and high speed... I can't tell you how many times my speed and wings/step get me to a Mob that A) just died B) will die as I swing at it C) will die with a red finger over it's head after I take one swing, D) will die with a red finger over it's head after I take two swings E) will die with a red finger over it's head RIGHT WHEN I'M ABOUT TO KILL IT F) substitute icy shatter of a Polar ray for Red Finger for F), G) and H).
    Since the disscussion is about EE and dc casting theres no point calling mlee are piker in heroic lvs. Keep in mind if we are talking about max builds mlee shouldnt come without fury/blitz, displace etc like casters were talking about are with best gear using the best eds for dc. These situations in A, B, C ... H doesnt happen a lot on EE caused by dc casters, mostly when you seea thing getting instakilled is more mlee rolling 19-20 or ranged using adrenaline nowdays.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ellihor View Post
    This EDs are for everyone talk is pure bs. Take shiradi for example it only works for arcanes and somewhat for ranged. Now lets talk about exalted angel...
    I agree that some EDs MUST be reworked and that the actual shiradi is really BAD for archers but still good for casters. It s not cause archers can t do good damages with shiradi that u have to nerf their damages with adrenaline, there is no sense... and adrenaline is a BURST damage that u CAN T use most of time and only can regen SOME fury charge with ur tier 5 ability...



    Quote Originally Posted by Ellihor View Post
    If you ever bothered to read it as a whole you would understand but you are too dumb for that so ill explain: need to buff the damage to make it viable for ranged and make it work only 1/spell to kill the shiradi arcanes builds, that all.
    1 - BTW dont attack the poster, attack the argument
    2 - "work only 1/spell to kill the shiradi arcanes builds" ? but if it works only 1/spell... it works only 1/arrow with manyshot too... looks like your spirit can handle only "1/thing"... 1 adrenaline/arrow ... 1/spell... other things like this ??



    Quote Originally Posted by Ellihor View Post
    First you buff shiradi to make it viable destiny for ranged chars, than you nerf fury.
    1- AS i said previously, YES some EDs have to be reworked and YES shiradi is bad for archers

    2- Why nerf fury of the wild with bows ??? most of fury of the wild skills are already not working with bows and i as said previously too, adrenaline is not that easy to use, or overpowered as u can imagine. It s only some burst damages and it is only "viable" when u have the tier 5 to have 30% to regen 1 charge of adrenaline on vorpal hits ONLY..... another time, you look to never have played a good archer that can play in epic elite as i am doing for a long time.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ellihor View Post
    Talking about what i have played or not makes you look silly, i dont have to give you explanations about my chars.
    you r just speaking like an "adventurer" who is crying that his wizard is "weak" when other characters have adrenaline and a master blitz ( so OP in your opinion) .... but you forget that casters still have good damages, have amazing Crowd control and yes, if u have all theses things, stop crying about your DPS cause it s a good thing to have a good crowd control wizard in a group to let REALS DPS do their job




    Quote Originally Posted by Ellihor View Post
    in your definition blitz 6 is no damage
    Quote Originally Posted by Ellihor View Post
    Blitz is OP and needs to be nerfed.
    1 - As i ALREADY said, if blitz 6 is the max charges u can get, it is 40% less powerfull than blitz 10 for the maximum damages you can do and YES it s NO damages if you compare 6 to 10.

    2 - Blitz is a tier 6 ability that needs 50 charges to use it ( really long to be able to use this skill again in fight if u loose it )

    3 - Blitz has a LONG COOLDOWN after activation. If u die or if u loose all your charges when you can t get last hit on monters, it s just USELESS. ( cause 15 seconds to get a last hit on epic elite is short )

    4 - Blitz can t be used in all quests. Taking a door or a teleporter in a quest erase ALL CHARGES OF BLITZ



    Conclusion : Blitz is really strong if you know where and how use it... if you dunno the quest and are wasting time for nothing, u ll stop to kill and your blitz will be useless...

    I am sorry Ellihor but one more time, you are speaking about things u never tryed...

  12. #32
    Community Member taurean430's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    el

    Monks are terrifically wonderfully OP at all levels and literally are the only class in the game where they can go from splash class, to deep multiclass and all the way around 360 flipside to pure class, and still have the best of all worlds almost doesn't matter how you build it. And this was true BEFORE the enhancement pass when they got even more buffs and flexibility (GM stances with 1 monk level, Kensei synergy, massively expanded "monk weapons" from Ninja Spy and the aforementioned Kensei, Dex to hit and Damage, Quivering Palm etc. etc.). So yes they are the best case scenario for a Melee closing the gap and doing DPS in competition with a Ranged or Caster character. Yet unless they are simply off zerging, they are still not getting to a group of mobs before my enlarged for free SLA's and their payload of Shiradi cluster bombs.




    For now adapting to that is where it's at, this will change it always does, it wasn't long ago that Nuking was 100% gimp at every difficulty, the very idea of nuking was ridiculed on the forums as the past time of flavor builds and people who chugged 2 SP pots between every shrine. DC casting was king at every difficulty and for a long period of time.



    It's true because I specifically said "it's not exactly balanced but it's better than EH" and I mentioned that Nukers can get a payload of Shirdai Cluster bombs off before any melee (that's not off zerging by himself) of course this is ignoring that Melee's are not getting 19k crits every time as Forum hyperbole loves to exaggerate Perma Blitz and Perma Fury.



    You mean like how you opened up with Monk as the example of how all Melee builds can close the gap at the speed of a Chain Missle (of course even Monks can't do that but whatever)?

    Honestly I don't bring them up as a COUNTER at all; I bring them up as the factual state of how things are in the game, and also WHY they kinda need to be that way (though maybe not quite to the degree it currently is).

    I'm totally okay with them relaxing a couple points of saves off the highest EE mobs saves just as soon as Turbine gives Nukers back their .5 multipliers on Superior lore and .10 enhancement increments, in their casting trees... And while they are at it, instead of stacking Spell power procs (Scourge, Savant Vulnerabilities etc.) giving 20-30% spell power, make those .2 to .3 Crit multiplier so we can actually FEEL that power increase as opposed to right now, barely being perceptible without a spreadsheet to show the elevated average damage when you've got a full stack.

    I bring up Nuking because it's the way for a Caster to be viable AND survivable in EE, and because for a SHORT WHILE in the history of the game Nuking is actually the more viable casting focus in the hardest content... a VERY short while.



    Why blame melee? (it's funny in one Thread you'll see Melee held up as hoplessly behind Casters, and on another they are the king of the heap lol) Past mid level they are all but Pikers in lower level content. They actually have to get close to the mobs, they take the brunt of the damage, they don't get Displacement until they build greensteel clickies or UMD very short duration scrolls constantly, and typically take 5 to 10 times longer to kill a mob, this changes with Blitz and Fury, (but again those aren't always on in the real game) but honestly Ranged is so powerful now in the case of a couple select builds, that if Melee DON'T have this power then they are just meat sacks with no purpose that take a MASSIVE DPS hit every time they are running up to a Mob (doing no damage during that time). A mob that's ALWAYS already being killed by a ranged or a DC or a Nuking caster. I have multiple melee's (I have alts of every major playstyle) with Leap/step and high speed... I can't tell you how many times my speed and wings/step get me to a Mob that A) just died B) will die as I swing at it C) will die with a red finger over it's head after I take one swing, D) will die with a red finger over it's head after I take two swings E) will die with a red finger over it's head RIGHT WHEN I'M ABOUT TO KILL IT F) substitute icy shatter of a Polar ray for Red Finger for F), G) and H).

    If you think Melee are King just because in the hardest content within the confines of having a charged ED like Fury they can crit for 20k (most a lot less than that), I disagree, even if they are off zerging way ahead. (Which is not exactly common practice in EE).



    For much of the games history Nuking has been totally non-viable... do an archival search here with the date set to pre-motu and search words: nuking viable, now go back a year and keep reading the first couple threads that pop up. I think you'll need to go back to before the Cap was 20 to find people talking about "nuking" being "viable". IIRC like when the cap was 10-ish. Yet here we are DC casting being a faceroll in EH and non viable IN SELECT EE QUESTS and it's "can you not see how wrong this is"?

    That said I agree they should shave a couple points off the hardest EE mobs saves. and Raise all EH mobs by a handful, Just as long as they give us spell crits that are more than just the meh double damage ones we're capped at now.

    BTW on the subject of multiclassing to be more viable in EE, lets not pretend that only casters need to do this... Ranged EE builds are almost exclusively deep multiclasses, lots of Monkchers for example, Casters are highly Shiradi multi SLA (read possibly more than one casting class) either having Pali levels or Monk levels or both (BTW that's my new Radio name Highly Shiradi, shout out to all my peep's it's the morning zoo with Highly Shiradi LOL), and Melee's are almost never pure classed... Most of them have some Monk levels, at least. And many are taking levels so they can bring their own healing.
    I'll be happy to address some of your other points in a bit, but seriously man... where did you get the mistaken notion that casters couldn't nuke targets previous to the spell pass? It's laughably untrue. I played casters back then too. Pure and multiclassed. Both types nuked. Particularly in the presence of stupid ward mechanics.

    Like I said, I'll get to the rest of the wall of text shortly.
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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    el

    Monks are terrifically wonderfully OP at all levels and literally are the only class in the game where they can go from splash class, to deep multiclass and all the way around 360 flipside to pure class, and still have the best of all worlds almost doesn't matter how you build it. And this was true BEFORE the enhancement pass when they got even more buffs and flexibility (GM stances with 1 monk level, Kensei synergy, massively expanded "monk weapons" from Ninja Spy and the aforementioned Kensei, Dex to hit and Damage, Quivering Palm etc. etc.). So yes they are the best case scenario for a Melee closing the gap and doing DPS in competition with a Ranged or Caster character. Yet unless they are simply off zerging, they are still not getting to a group of mobs before my enlarged for free SLA's and their payload of Shiradi cluster bombs.
    Here's a big part of your problem in your assertions I'd say. Your comparisons to *any* type of caster either divine or arcane side center around Shiradi Casters. Whereas, in this thread, the point of discussion was centered around DC Casters. They are not the same.

    Let's briefly discuss comparisons in melee vs. arcane dps:

    My paladin adrenaline smites for more direct damage than my dc caster using Ruin.
    My bard out dps's my dc caster, and has better crowd control options.
    Same for my Artificer and Sorcerer.
    Same for my ranger
    Same for my barbarians
    Same for my fighter/monkything
    Same for my monky/anything.

    Not just monks man. Monks are a great example not because of the many other abilities they posess. They are a great example because they have been given dc's up to 20 points HIGHER than dc based dedicated casters. Now, couple that with their other abilities if you wish. 9-20 higher dc than my multi life dc based caster was my point of reference. Can you tell me what D&D Edition exists where Monks are more powerful at dc based abilities than dedicated arcanes?



    For now adapting to that is where it's at, this will change it always does, it wasn't long ago that Nuking was 100% gimp at every difficulty, the very idea of nuking was ridiculed on the forums as the past time of flavor builds and people who chugged 2 SP pots between every shrine. DC casting was king at every difficulty and for a long period of time.



    It's true because I specifically said "it's not exactly balanced but it's better than EH" and I mentioned that Nukers can get a payload of Shirdai Cluster bombs off before any melee (that's not off zerging by himself) of course this is ignoring that Melee's are not getting 19k crits every time as Forum hyperbole loves to exaggerate Perma Blitz and Perma Fury.
    Again, you are hyperfocused on Shiradi Casters. Replace that with DC based casters. Now, how does that logic hold up?



    You mean like how you opened up with Monk as the example of how all Melee builds can close the gap at the speed of a Chain Missle (of course even Monks can't do that but whatever)?
    Nope. I meant how when playing a monk I can reach a group of mobs infinitely faster than the Wizard in my group. And with the dc's given I can instakill them before the Wizard is in enlarge range. I also was referring to the cooldown only lasting long enough for me to run to the next group of mobs. That's what I was referring to.



    Honestly I don't bring them up as a COUNTER at all; I bring them up as the factual state of how things are in the game, and also WHY they kinda need to be that way (though maybe not quite to the degree it currently is).

    I'm totally okay with them relaxing a couple points of saves off the highest EE mobs saves just as soon as Turbine gives Nukers back their .5 multipliers on Superior lore and .10 enhancement increments, in their casting trees... And while they are at it, instead of stacking Spell power procs (Scourge, Savant Vulnerabilities etc.) giving 20-30% spell power, make those .2 to .3 Crit multiplier so we can actually FEEL that power increase as opposed to right now, barely being perceptible without a spreadsheet to show the elevated average damage when you've got a full stack.

    I bring up Nuking because it's the way for a Caster to be viable AND survivable in EE, and because for a SHORT WHILE in the history of the game Nuking is actually the more viable casting focus in the hardest content... a VERY short while.
    No real point of contention there from me. However increasing casting options will require much more than you mention here imo. There are some really easy things that could be done to start bringing things back into line I believe. I outlined the nutshell version earlier.



    Why blame melee? (it's funny in one Thread you'll see Melee held up as hoplessly behind Casters, and on another they are the king of the heap lol) Past mid level they are all but Pikers in lower level content. They actually have to get close to the mobs, they take the brunt of the damage, they don't get Displacement until they build greensteel clickies or UMD very short duration scrolls constantly, and typically take 5 to 10 times longer to kill a mob, this changes with Blitz and Fury, (but again those aren't always on in the real game) but honestly Ranged is so powerful now in the case of a couple select builds, that if Melee DON'T have this power then they are just meat sacks with no purpose that take a MASSIVE DPS hit every time they are running up to a Mob (doing no damage during that time). A mob that's ALWAYS already being killed by a ranged or a DC or a Nuking caster. I have multiple melee's (I have alts of every major playstyle) with Leap/step and high speed... I can't tell you how many times my speed and wings/step get me to a Mob that A) just died B) will die as I swing at it C) will die with a red finger over it's head after I take one swing, D) will die with a red finger over it's head after I take two swings E) will die with a red finger over it's head RIGHT WHEN I'M ABOUT TO KILL IT F) substitute icy shatter of a Polar ray for Red Finger for F), G) and H).

    If you think Melee are King just because in the hardest content within the confines of having a charged ED like Fury they can crit for 20k (most a lot less than that), I disagree, even if they are off zerging way ahead. (Which is not exactly common practice in EE).
    Wrong, dead wrong. I actually was an avid supporter of giving melee more options, *while* allowing casters to remain, well... casters. You are understating the effects of melee destiny power. I can Master's Blitz my way through any quest in this game. In some cases in builds that shouldn't have gotten three rooms into the dungeon. It's an astronomically sized easy button producing more high damage numbers. The brunt of the damage is taken by my divine or arcane casters in groups I run in. Melee outdamage them, but cannot hold aggro because they couldn't be bothered to build for it. Everything on the board is coming after the *caster* and that's factual. Thanks to bumps in ranged dps potiental, which has reached sky high levels as well, add the archer to that list of 'constant target.'



    For much of the games history Nuking has been totally non-viable...
    Er... sorry, but no. That isn't even a little bit true. The big question has been the cost, not the ability to do so.

    BTW on the subject of multiclassing to be more viable in EE, lets not pretend that only casters need to do this... Ranged EE builds are almost exclusively deep multiclasses, lots of Monkchers for example, Casters are highly Shiradi multi SLA (read possibly more than one casting class) either having Pali levels or Monk levels or both (BTW that's my new Radio name Highly Shiradi, shout out to all my peep's it's the morning zoo with Highly Shiradi LOL), and Melee's are almost never pure classed... Most of them have some Monk levels, at least. And many are taking levels so they can bring their own healing.
    Ranged builds, melee builds = same thing, astronomical damage increases + surviveability increases. BTW I'm good with that. Not a problem in the world.

    Any casting build except a Shiradi Destiny one = ineffective to the point of questioning usefulness. This is a big effin' problem.
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  14. #34
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    The OP was never about Shiradi casting and playing slot machine with prism+double rainbow. The OP was about the spells from spell book becoming obsolete with each update and was coming up with ways to make casters more diverse than just spamming magic missile and sla spells in Shiradi.

    One suggestion for Draconic Incarnation

    Is
    add a critical multiplier at the top of the tier 6 for 1x. i.e 1k damage would crit at 3k damage.

    Make Epic Character level work on top of the heroic caster level.
    For each epic character level, increase the caster level by 1 and raise the maximum spell caster level by 1.
    +1 Evocation DC every 2 Epic character level

    i.e.

    A level 20 wizard/sorcerer with 6 level of epic character level will have a caster level of 26 + Draconic incarnation core. a tier 5 core would give this example caster level of 31 with maximum caster level of 31 and +3 evocation DC.

    A level 4 firewall that has a maximum caster level of 15 will get raised to level 21 base on the epic character levels. + 5 from Draconic core. Total will hit lvl 26 caster level firewall damage

    A level 7 Delay fireball has a maximum caster level of 20 will get raised to 26 base on the epic character level + 5 Draconic core. Total will be caster level 31 delay fireball with maximum caster level of 31.


    Magister
    One solution is to give +1 DC to all spell school for every 2 epic Character level.
    A level 28 character will get +4 DC.



    All Turbine has to do is make epic character level works with the heroic build in terms of DCs, spell levels when they are in a particular Epic destiny. DC is related to anything from stunning blow, assassinate, Necromancy, spells

    shadow dancer can have something similar to "give +1 DC to all spell school every 2 epic Character level"
    Instead of giving 1 DC to all spell school, give 1 assassinate DC and 2 SA damage every 2 epic character level.

    Unyielding Sentinel
    give +2% AC per epic character level
    ADD:
    2 prr per epic character level
    1 saves per epic character level

    Primal avatar
    Give Animal form GTWF feat and get rid of the gtwf feat from heroic level. This will provide a reason to be in primal avatar
    ADD: Make Avatar of Nature able to use GTWF and attack speed 1/2 of bear form speed

    Legendary Dreadnaught
    +1 Tactical DC every 2 epic character level

    Fatesinger
    +2 Damage +5 sonic/positive spell power +1 Evocation&Enchantment DC every 2 epic character level
    Last edited by IBCrabin; 10-27-2013 at 09:02 AM. Reason: added more to make certain ED more useful

  15. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by IBCrabin View Post
    Magister
    One solution is to give +1 DC to all spell school for every 2 epic Character level.
    A level 28 character will get +4 DC.
    It occurs to me that this would end up as +5 to all DCs at level 30. Probably fair, but maybe have the player pay for that extra power? Something like:

    Each magister core ability after the first one lets you heighten spells 1 additional spell level. For a pure wizard, capped magister then means you can heighten to spell level 14 instead of 9, with the corresponding increase in spell point cost for heightening another 5 levels. (25 extra mana per DC spell if no efficiency or AM capstone.)

    This would have a (nice?) side effect of letting deeper splashes heighten their spells up to a more functional level.

    Then add something similarly cool for dps casting to draconic to a) make it better for dps caster than shirardi, and b) sufficiently distinguish it for dc casters, who right now have no real difference between magister and draconic for dcs. (Twist in the tier 2 magister dc bonus and you're looking at the same DC regardless which destiny is active.)

    Make magister the go-to destiny for dc casting, and draconic the go-to school for nuking. Leave shirardi as-is for a nice dps+cc flavor choice, with draconic being buffed to clearly more dps.

    EDIT: For boosting draconic dps, maybe mirror blitz/fury style, both being tier 6, and have them lock each other out like fury made placid and fury eternal lock each other out:

    Arcane Fury: Each time a spell does critical damage, gain 1 stack. At ?? stacks, your spells auto-crit for the next 20 or 30 seconds, resetting your stack to 0.

    Arcane Blitz: Each time a spell does critical damage, add ? universal spell power up to ? total. Each stack lasts ? seconds, removing one stack at a time if you don't land a crit in that time.

    The numbers could be whatever, of course, but the basic idea could work. These would feel like real epic moments, at least, and would end the stranglehold that shirardi has on arcane nuking.

  16. #36
    Community Member taurean430's Avatar
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    Looking at it in terms of spell book, there are some disconcerting numbers to discuss.

    Total Wiz/Sorc spells = 196
    How many of these are viable choices for a dc based caster for epic content?

    Total Clr/Fvs spells = 126
    How many of these?
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  17. #37
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    Exalted angel
    +1 DC to Evocation & necromancy every 2 epic character level

    The 2 commonly used DC spells are blade barrier, implosion and destruction for killing things.

    Magister
    +1 Spell penetration every 2 epic character level. Left this out in the last post.

    All we can do is come up with ideas and hope turbine will put some thought into stream lining the game; make the heroic and epic levels work together rather than come up with so many drastic changes every couple updates with Epic destinies, Epic feats, Epic Destinies feats, and now epic TR.
    Last edited by IBCrabin; 10-27-2013 at 01:42 AM.

  18. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by IBCrabin View Post
    Exalted angel
    +1 DC to Evocation & necromancy every 2 epic character level

    The 2 commonly used DC spells are blade barrier and destruction for killing things.
    My DC cleric makes frequent use of 3 schools, and it would be 4 but for some reason I never really took to cometfall:

    Necromancy: Slay living, Destruction
    Evocation: Implosion, Blade Barrier
    Enchantment: Greater Command
    Conjuration: Cometfall


    Spell Penetration is a non-issue for magister wizards, as a general rule.

  19. #39
    Community Member taurean430's Avatar
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    +1 dc per 2 epic levels would be pretty spectacular. A level 28 caster divine or arcane side then could hit the necessary dc's to land spells. And unlike the complaints of old, one would still have to invest heavily into the dc side to reach the marks as they stand now. It's also nice for progression.

    /signed
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  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    My DC cleric makes frequent use of 3 schools, and it would be 4 but for some reason I never really took to cometfall:

    Necromancy: Slay living, Destruction
    Evocation: Implosion, Blade Barrier
    Enchantment: Greater Command
    Conjuration: Cometfall
    I was always a fan of Abjuration as well (Dismissal & Banishment), and have also recently added Transmutation (Mass Frog), to the list.

    Also: Hold Person, Holy Smite (as a nuke a low-levels, but mainly for the Blinding at higher), and Undeath to Death. You already covered their schools, though.

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