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  1. #21
    Community Member Ebondevil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drwaz99 View Post
    One of the largest complaints about leveling ED's is running in off destinies. What was the reasoning behind then incorporating that feature and expanding on it on a much larger scale knowing it's very unpopular?
    Actually I would argue that they are not, if one considers the idea that you can EPic Reincarnate and Heroic Reincarnate, then one life you could be farming the Martial Sphere on your fighter, and the next you could be farming the divine Sphere on your cleric, the system allows for that option, and allows you to earn rewards in the best sphere for the character. Only once you have finished off 9 Epic reincarnations in one sphere would it be beneficial to go to a different one.

    From my experience there's also normally a couple of Destinies that work for a character in different spheres, so you could take that up to 18 Epic Reincarnations before you need to consider an off destiny.

    Additionally while Grandmaster of Flowers might be considered and Off Sphere for a Rogue, the rogue could still train the Martial sphere by playing in Shadowdancer, so in effect it reduces the need to level in Off destinies, unless you want to take a less than optimal course for them.

    That's how I see it anyhow.

  2. #22
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    Default Suggestion - Re-arrange the Buttons

    Quote Originally Posted by SqueakofDoom View Post
    Reincarnation is seeing many changes, including a new UI. When you speak with the Life-Shaper, the below UI will appear:

    *snip*
    The way you currently have them arranged:

    HTR
    LR
    ITR
    ER


    Note that the buttons are not arranged alphabetically, nor are they arranged by "level" (not sure how else to describe it) but 'randomly', nor are the TR buttons grouped. {Am I the only one who hates random (unsorted) lists?} I suggest the following arrangement:

    LR (followed by a little gap)
    HTR
    ITR (followed by a little gap)
    ER

    OR - perhaps you can have just a "TR" button that provided a "pop-up" screen with (or just a secondary listing of) HTR and ITR (the pop-up could ask "What type of True Reincarnation?" then select from "Heroic" or "Iconic").

    Another suggestion might be to include a confirmation pop-up (for all choices) - "You have chosen HTR - Continue?" (or "Is this Correct?" or whatever) and the confirmation would then continue the process. The confirmation screen could take the place of the big arrow on the right.

    Of course the confirmation taking the place of the big arrow is optional, but PLEASE re-order the list that makes SOME kind of logical sense.

    {'Cuz, you know random lists suck. Although, I suppose chaotic aligned beings may not mind them...}
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  3. #23
    Developer Vargouille's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Battery View Post
    do you lose karma when you TR? if so how do you gain it back if you have your EDs all maxxed?
    You only lose karma through Epic Reincarnation for the specific Sphere you are gaining an Epic Past Life (EPL) feat from.

    Karma is gained based on your active Epic Destiny. Karma doesn't care whether or not your Epic Destiny XP is capped.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drwaz99 View Post
    One of the largest complaints about leveling ED's is running in off destinies. What was the reasoning behind then incorporating that feature and expanding on it on a much larger scale knowing it's very unpopular?
    You are seeing a compromise solution as it stands.

    We didn't want to go as far as simply saying reincarnate and get anything from a large list of possible past lives, and what you played to earn it was irrelevant. For comparison, that would be similar to taking the Heroic Past Life feats and allowing choice of any of them regardless of what class(es) you played.

    We also didn't want to tie each EPL directly to each Destiny, which was the most obvious and intuitive method (especially considering Heroic Past Lives that is the obvious model), because then you must play each specific Destiny for a specific Past Life.

    This solution also deals with issues that would crop up with the current and possible future imbalance in the number of Epic Destinies (which may continue to change over time for years). This allows us to have 3 Divine Past Lives, for instance. Disconnecting the past life feats also reduces the cost to implementing a future 3rd Divine Epic Destiny (which makes it more likely to become a reality), or any other future Epic Destinies.

    This method also lets us reward each Sphere differently and appropriately, and potentially add new Past Lives without needing to develop four new Epic Destinies at the exact same time. It goes both ways.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ebondevil View Post
    Actually I would argue that they are not, if one considers the idea that you can EPic Reincarnate and Heroic Reincarnate, then one life you could be farming the Martial Sphere on your fighter, and the next you could be farming the divine Sphere on your cleric, the system allows for that option, and allows you to earn rewards in the best sphere for the character. Only once you have finished off 9 Epic reincarnations in one sphere would it be beneficial to go to a different one.

    From my experience there's also normally a couple of Destinies that work for a character in different spheres, so you could take that up to 18 Epic Reincarnations before you need to consider an off destiny.

    Additionally while Grandmaster of Flowers might be considered and Off Sphere for a Rogue, the rogue could still train the Martial sphere by playing in Shadowdancer, so in effect it reduces the need to level in Off destinies, unless you want to take a less than optimal course for them.

    That's how I see it anyhow.
    Epic Reincarnation doesn't give you the option of rebuilding your character from the ground up - you get the effects of a LR, but you would have to ER then immediately TR back to level 1 to completely change classes. So say I have a completionist fighter on live atm, he doesn't need any more heroic lives, I would have to level all the ED PL's as a fighter since the rollback from 28 to 20 would leave me a fighter.

  5. #25
    Community Member Ebondevil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Epic Reincarnation requires spending 6 million Karma, which is also the Karma cap for each sphere. (These could change in the future, but this is the current intention for launch with U20.)

    Note: If you have any destiny XP capped when U20 launches, the corresponding Sphere will be be set to 6 million Karma. This is on the theory that after capping out that destiny you could have continued playing in that destiny while potentially earning Karma.
    Question:

    Is there a cap to the amount of Karma Experience I can earn in one sphere, say for example I want to spend one life gaining 12 Million Karma Experience in the Martial Sphere?

    With the aforementioned 12Million Martial Karma xp at Level 28:
    Could I Epic Reincarnate, paying the 6mil Martial Karma Xp to gain a Martial past life
    Level back to 28 with a Primal Destiny
    Epic Reincarnate again pay the other 6mil Martial Karma Xp to gain a second Martial past life

    Or is the Karma for a sphere capped to 6mil xp?

  6. #26
    Community Member Systern's Avatar
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    Can you answer if these become active at level 20, or level 1? Do these kick in at 20 like destinies? Or level 1 like past lives?

    What happens when I ER and then HTR?

  7. #27
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Epic Reincarnation requires spending 6 million Karma, which is also the Karma cap for each sphere. (These could change in the future, but this is the current intention for launch with U20.)

    Note: This is slightly more than 3 Epic Destinies.

    Note: This is a bit less than the amount of XP gained from level 20->28.

    Note: If you have any destiny XP capped when U20 launches, the corresponding Sphere will be be set to 6 million Karma. This is on the theory that after capping out that destiny you could have continued playing in that destiny while potentially earning Karma.
    So, I'm capped on all XP.

    When U20 hits, I find my self with (about) 4million divine karma, 8 million martial, 6 million primal & arcane.
    So, that means I will have to grind 2 million XP more in divine before aquiring divine past life?

    What happens if I have too much karma? Is overkill lost or saved?

  8. #28
    Community Member Satyriasys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    You are seeing a compromise solution as it stands.

    We didn't want to go as far as simply saying reincarnate and get anything from a large list of possible past lives, and what you played to earn it was irrelevant. For comparison, that would be similar to taking the Heroic Past Life feats and allowing choice of any of them regardless of what class(es) you played.

    We also didn't want to tie each EPL directly to each Destiny, which was the most obvious and intuitive method (especially considering Heroic Past Lives that is the obvious model), because then you must play each specific Destiny for a specific Past Life.

    This solution also deals with issues that would crop up with the current and possible future imbalance in the number of Epic Destinies (which may continue to change over time for years). This allows us to have 3 Divine Past Lives, for instance. Disconnecting the past life feats also reduces the cost to implementing a future 3rd Divine Epic Destiny (which makes it more likely to become a reality), or any other future Epic Destinies.

    This method also lets us reward each Sphere differently and appropriately, and potentially add new Past Lives without needing to develop four new Epic Destinies at the exact same time. It goes both ways.
    I agree. I like it.
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    We didn't want to go as far as simply saying reincarnate and get anything from a large list of possible past lives, and what you played to earn it was irrelevant. For comparison, that would be similar to taking the Heroic Past Life feats and allowing choice of any of them regardless of what class(es) you played.
    Ok, but when you heroic reincarnate and re-level, your progression thru the levels 1-20 directly help you progress thru ever increasing difficult content. Using my Fighter as an example, as he levels from 20-28 his progress thru the divine sphere doesn't directly improve his ability to keep up with increasing difficulty of the content.

    I assume that levels and ED were initally balanced for a player using the appropriate sphere (you have to toss out the fringe builds that do their crazy stuff). What this leads to it once you start getting into much more difficult content in the late 20's, it's going to become more efficient to level you toon the what people do now, much lower content, thus ignoring the harder stuff (Wheloon and SH's). This seems like it could be one possible reason of tying Saga's into COV's.

    I would think you would want to open up the content for people when they are leveling such massive amounts of XP, over and over. But when a toon is comparatively the same strength at 20 that he is at 28 (MAX ED's, in off sphere) you are narrowing the focus for content instead of expanding it.

    Does that make sense?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vellrad View Post

    What happens if I have too much karma? Is overkill lost or saved?
    Once you hit 6million in a sphere it's hard capped I believe.

  10. #30
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    Default Ok, you want the goodies for one sphere, but want to play another?

    Quote Originally Posted by Drwaz99 View Post
    So I'd like to make a suggestion regarding Karma and gaining Karma in off destinies:

    As it stand right now, as I understand it, you need 6 million Karma per sphere to ER. And if your main destiny is in another sphere, your going to have to earn that in a off destiny. That's 54 million XP for 3x PL's in one sphere. That's astronomical. Running in an off an off destiny. That's just not pain, it's torture.

    How about if we have all of our ED's completely maxxed XP-wise we are allowed to choose a sphere to gain karma in while being able to stay in our main destiny - even if it's in another sphere. When you compare the strength of the ER past lives in their current iterations I think this is only fair.
    There is nothing telling you you HAVE to get any Epic PL in a sphere you don't like / that doesn't fit your build. But if you want the benefit off those PLs you will just have to play as one, that makes perfect sense.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    No.

    You cannot lose Epic Destiny XP, however hard you try. (This is different from Karma.)
    I bet you I can.

    *Deletes character; casts arms into the air*

    Ha-HA! I win!

    ... wait.... (expletive here)

    On a more serious note, I am curious if there has been any thought of reviewing the heroic past lives and any possible changes to them.
    Anything can be explained by drunken wizards.

    "Hey! I got a piece of the +1 Butter Knife of Victory! Ah-oh, wait, wait. It's just a crummy, normal +1 dagger of ghostbane..."

  12. #32
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    Default From What I understand...

    EDIT: Nevermind.
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  13. #33
    Community Member niehues's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satyriasys View Post
    The UI could use some work. It has an alpha look to it and descriptions run off the boxes. Otherwise a step in the right direction.
    Yep.. also the "click on the big arrow" then click on the small arrows... I would recomend use the same position for all arrows.. it may be hard but the whole UI could go trough a facelift and get some common ergonomic adjusts.. (that arrow is one of them..)

    If u check operational systems they tent to have a good template of what ppl are used to and what makes more sense on the moving the mouse around..

    putting that huge ugly arrow that not always makes it easy to plays to see but perhaps put the right size arrow on the right place would..


    anyways I glad to see some mods to the UI.. keep up the good work..

  14. #34
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drwaz99 View Post



    Once you hit 6million in a sphere it's hard capped I believe.
    Oh I missed that.

    I think cap should be higher.

  15. #35
    Community Member Grailhawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post

    We didn't want to go as far as simply saying reincarnate and get anything from a large list of possible past lives, and what you played to earn it was irrelevant. For comparison, that would be similar to taking the Heroic Past Life feats and allowing choice of any of them regardless of what class(es) you played.
    Whats being traded is the XP it really shouldn't matter what vehicle (class) I used to get it.

    Its really not the same as a heroic past life a Cleric past life is not the same as a Fighter in Magister, Fatesinger or Dragonic.

    I really hope some one argued this when this decision was being made. I'm really sad they lost.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Epic Reincarnation requires spending 6 million Karma, which is also the Karma cap for each sphere. (These could change in the future, but this is the current intention for launch with U20.)

    Note: This is slightly more than 3 Epic Destinies.

    Note: This is a bit less than the amount of XP gained from level 20->28.

    Note: If you have any destiny XP capped when U20 launches, the corresponding Sphere will be be set to 6 million Karma. This is on the theory that after capping out that destiny you could have continued playing in that destiny while potentially earning Karma.

    Yes.
    so, with the cap of 6mil, and the 6mil required. and it was said that 1karma = 1exp. and that having a capped destiny wouldnt effect it. That means that no matter what we'd be able to ER once we hit 28 as long as we played in the same destiny sphere?

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nascoe View Post
    There is nothing telling you you HAVE to get any Epic PL in a sphere you don't like / that doesn't fit your build. But if you want the benefit off those PLs you will just have to play as one, that makes perfect sense.
    Your not understanding, if I am a fighter who ER's at level 28, I am still going to be a fighter, so I can't play as a cleric. I don't have the heroic enhancements to play a cleric. I will be a fighter in a Divine ED sphere. That's not "playing one" as you say. I won't have cures or heals or DW spells. Nothing other than the ED sphere about my character is divine.

    People constantly moan about people running in their groups in off destinies. This will immensely compound this issue.
    Last edited by Drwaz99; 10-24-2013 at 04:40 PM.

  18. #38
    Community Member Krumm's Avatar
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    Being locked into a sphere just to level Karma to 6million xp is going to be painful for some builds.

    So, how about making it so that Iconic Reincarnation does not reset Kama xp.

    This way, we can alternate between Iconic Reincarnation and Epic reincarnation and have some flexibility in which sphere we have to play in.

  19. #39
    Developer Vargouille's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Systern View Post
    Can you answer if these become active at level 20, or level 1? Do these kick in at 20 like destinies? Or level 1 like past lives?

    What happens when I ER and then HTR?
    All past lives kick in at level 1, including Heroic, Epic, and Iconic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ebondevil View Post
    Question:

    Is there a cap to the amount of Karma Experience I can earn in one sphere, say for example I want to spend one life gaining 12 Million Karma Experience in the Martial Sphere?

    With the aforementioned 12Million Martial Karma xp at Level 28:
    Could I Epic Reincarnate, paying the 6mil Martial Karma Xp to gain a Martial past life
    Level back to 28 with a Primal Destiny
    Epic Reincarnate again pay the other 6mil Martial Karma Xp to gain a second Martial past life

    Or is the Karma for a sphere capped to 6mil xp?
    Our intent for launch of U20 is that the Karma Cap for each sphere is 6 million.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vellrad View Post
    So, I'm capped on all XP.

    When U20 hits, I find my self with (about) 4million divine karma, 8 million martial, 6 million primal & arcane.
    So, that means I will have to grind 2 million XP more in divine before aquiring divine past life?

    What happens if I have too much karma? Is overkill lost or saved?
    All of your spheres would be capped at 6 million Karma, including Divine, because you have at least one Divine Epic Destiny completely capped out on XP (not just level 5).

    You cannot gain more than 6 million Karma.

    (Of course, you couldn't really have 8 million Martial as far as I can tell, either.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Worldcrafter View Post
    I bet you I can.

    *Deletes character; casts arms into the air*

    Ha-HA! I win!

    ... wait.... (expletive here)
    I stand corrected!

    On a more serious note, I am curious if there has been any thought of reviewing the heroic past lives and any possible changes to them.
    There's been some thought, yes, but that's quite unlikely to happen for U20.

  20. #40
    Community Member LeoLionxxx's Avatar
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    Question Is this right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Karma is gained based on your active Epic Destiny. Karma doesn't care whether or not your Epic Destiny XP is capped.
    Ah, so what you're saying is that your Karma of each spear is track as separate numbers?

    For example, you go into Dragonic Incarnate and gain 30 000XP. You now have 30 000 Karma XP for Arcane.

    You then go Magister and gain 25 000. You now have 55 000 (30 000 + 25 000) Arcane Karma XP for arcane.

    Is this correct? Just want to confirm and maybe clear up any confusion.
    Because DDO content is created by hand, some issues cannot be fixed with a global change. We must fix these issues one-by-one by hand with the help of bug reports. This includes:
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