Page 28 of 30 FirstFirst ... 1824252627282930 LastLast
Results 541 to 560 of 599
  1. #541
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    3,689

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hathorian View Post
    So people should cheat and ruin the game and face no consequences. Gotcha!
    I really don't understand posts like this. It's like seeing someone get a speeding ticket and then complaining that they faced no consequences because they weren't jailed or executed.

    The people who exploited (and were caught) were given a two week ban. They also had a bunch of their loot taken away (more loot was removed than they had gotten by exploiting - "extreme prejudice"). And then they were banned for an additional two weeks because Turbine couldn't figure out how to successfully make the deleted inventory stay deleted (even after Turbine was warned about the issue that came up).

    If you think that the punishment should be more than what Turbine had originally decided, then that's fine. You're entirely entitled to that opinion. But saying that "The extra 2 week ban hurts the game as a whole more than it hurts the exploiters" = "exploiters should not face any consequences" is just absurd. How can you possibly have come to that understanding of the original post in this thread?
    No one in the world ever gets what they want
    And that is beautiful
    Everybody dies frustrated and sad
    And that is beautiful

  2. #542
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    3,689

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    I really don't understand posts like this. It's like seeing someone get a speeding ticket and then complaining that they faced no consequences because they weren't jailed or executed.
    By the way, I should mention here that my use of metaphor was only intended as a form of explanation of my point of view and the metaphor itself should not be taken as any justification of my point of view. Metaphors are phenomenally useful in helping people understand an idea, but they are utterly useless for supporting a position in a debate.
    No one in the world ever gets what they want
    And that is beautiful
    Everybody dies frustrated and sad
    And that is beautiful

  3. #543
    Community Member Hathorian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    711

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    By the way, I should mention here that my use of metaphor was only intended as a form of explanation of my point of view and the metaphor itself should not be taken as any justification of my point of view. Metaphors are phenomenally useful in helping people understand an idea, but they are utterly useless for supporting a position in a debate.
    It sounds like you think they are being penalized in an extremely harsh manner which is fair. I don't like to see people get suspended either, but I bet an argument could've been made for a permanent ban for what some of the people did. Sure, whatever items were left in their inventory got removed but what about the stuff that was already traded, sold, bartered? How many Otto's box's, raid bypasses, xp pots, tomes, etc, etc did they already get/use? This doesn't just affect the cheaters but everyone they interacted with. Deleting inventories seems harsh but it doesn't seem like it fully addresses the matter and additional action was warranted....

  4. #544
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    3,689

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hathorian View Post
    It sounds like you think they are being penalized in an extremely harsh manner which is fair. I don't like to see people get suspended either, but I bet an argument could've been made for a permanent ban for what some of the people did. Sure, whatever items were left in their inventory got removed but what about the stuff that was already traded, sold, bartered? How many Otto's box's, raid bypasses, xp pots, tomes, etc, etc did they already get/use? This doesn't just affect the cheaters but everyone they interacted with. Deleting inventories seems harsh but it doesn't seem like it fully addresses the matter and additional action was warranted....
    I actually don't have a strong opinion on the harshness/leniency of the disciplinary action. If Turbine had decided to permaban everyone who was involved, I'd have been surprised, but not particularly offended. If Turbine had continued their previous general policy of a short term DDO-vacation while letting the exploiters keep ALL of their loot, then I wouldn't have minded that either. What I would really like to see from a disciplinary code is even enforcement and predictability. If people are going to be permabanned, then let everyone know that ahead of time. If they're going to have the gentle wrist-slap, then people should know that so that they can go find another game if exploiting offends them severely. Now, I fully realize that having open, transparent policies is against Turbine policy and that's their decision to make. It's not a decision that I like, but if I want to play DDO, it's a decision that I have to live with.

    Fundamentally, all that I actually ask for is consistency and even handed application of the rules. This extra two weeks offends me because they made their decision on what an appropriate disciplinary action would be (which is up to them, and not something that you or I can decide for them) and then they changed their minds because they couldn't figure out how to make the punishment actually work successfully.

    I do agree that the loot that they sold or gave away did have an impact on the DDO economy as a whole. I don't think that there is a lot that Turbine either can or should do about that. If someone buys stolen/duped/whatever illegal loot knowingly, then I think it is reasonable and appropriate to hit those players as well, but I don't think that it's at all easy to find those players unless they ended up buying thousands of flawless dragonscales. And if someone bought stolen/duped/whatever illegal loot without having any reasonable way of knowing that it was stolen/duped/whatever, then I don't think it's at all appropriate to punish them. In either of those two cases, I don't think that there is very much that Turbine even can do about it now that the horse is out of the barn.

    The thing that is really galling to me about all of this is that Turbine could keep a large amount of this from happening by actually fixing the bugs in a reasonable time frame after we alert them about those bugs/exploits.
    No one in the world ever gets what they want
    And that is beautiful
    Everybody dies frustrated and sad
    And that is beautiful

  5. #545
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Far beyond the ravens gate
    Posts
    5,512

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    I really don't understand posts like this. It's like seeing someone get a speeding ticket and then complaining that they faced no consequences because they weren't jailed or executed.

    The people who exploited (and were caught) were given a two week ban. They also had a bunch of their loot taken away (more loot was removed than they had gotten by exploiting - "extreme prejudice"). And then they were banned for an additional two weeks because Turbine couldn't figure out how to successfully make the deleted inventory stay deleted (even after Turbine was warned about the issue that came up).

    If you think that the punishment should be more than what Turbine had originally decided, then that's fine. You're entirely entitled to that opinion. But saying that "The extra 2 week ban hurts the game as a whole more than it hurts the exploiters" = "exploiters should not face any consequences" is just absurd. How can you possibly have come to that understanding of the original post in this thread?
    IF cheaters is what keeps the game is going, its a pretty lousy game.
    Dystopia = utopia achieved

  6. #546
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    3,689

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    IF cheaters is what keeps the game is going, its a pretty lousy game.
    What does that have to do with anything that I've said in this thread or any other? That's a serious question, by the way. I'm trying to figure out what it is that I'm saying that appears to confuse people so thoroughly as to make them say things like what I've quoted here.
    No one in the world ever gets what they want
    And that is beautiful
    Everybody dies frustrated and sad
    And that is beautiful

  7. #547
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Far beyond the ravens gate
    Posts
    5,512

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    What does that have to do with anything that I've said in this thread or any other? That's a serious question, by the way. I'm trying to figure out what it is that I'm saying that appears to confuse people so thoroughly as to make them say things like what I've quoted here.
    It wasnt anything you said, its just the most recent post that it could be attached to.

    And dont get confused by anything anyone says. Being obtuse is just a conversational gambit to many.
    Dystopia = utopia achieved

  8. #548
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    3,689

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    It wasnt anything you said, its just the most recent post that it could be attached to.

    And dont get confused by anything anyone says. Being obtuse is just a conversational gambit to many.
    Thank you for explaining. I was scratching my head, trying to figure out where that came from, but that makes perfect sense.

    I do think that exploiters support the game, but only exactly as much as any other player. If someone who exploits bugs has picked up $350 in TP in the last year for TP, then they've supported the game exactly as much as someone who picked up $350 in TP in the last year without benefitting from Turbine's bugs (although we all get to enjoy the consequences of the bugs that exist that actively hinder the players).
    No one in the world ever gets what they want
    And that is beautiful
    Everybody dies frustrated and sad
    And that is beautiful

  9. #549
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Far beyond the ravens gate
    Posts
    5,512

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    Thank you for explaining. I was scratching my head, trying to figure out where that came from, but that makes perfect sense.

    I do think that exploiters support the game, but only exactly as much as any other player. If someone who exploits bugs has picked up $350 in TP in the last year for TP, then they've supported the game exactly as much as someone who picked up $350 in TP in the last year without benefitting from Turbine's bugs (although we all get to enjoy the consequences of the bugs that exist that actively hinder the players).
    That, of course, depends on the bug exploited. But for the non-damaging ones that is true.

    In the case of the duplicating bug someone who duplicates stuff that is sold in the store for an amount equaling or exceeding the amount they have put into the game (if they manage to sell them off before they get shut down), do not support the game.
    Dystopia = utopia achieved

  10. #550
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    3,689

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    That, of course, depends on the bug exploited. But for the non-damaging ones that is true.

    In the case of the duplicating bug someone who duplicates stuff that is sold in the store for an amount equaling or exceeding the amount they have put into the game (if they manage to sell them off before they get shut down), do not support the game.
    If they duplicate stuff and then sell it on the ASAH, then they're generating even more money for Turbine. That's a clear win for Turbine (in the short term at least) even though it's a loss for the game's integrity as a whole. It's why I'm pleasantly surprised that they fixed this latest exploit today as fast as they did. I'm very happy with both the speed and the method that they used to fix this.
    No one in the world ever gets what they want
    And that is beautiful
    Everybody dies frustrated and sad
    And that is beautiful

  11. #551
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Wisconsin, birthplace of D&D
    Posts
    20,949

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    What does that have to do with anything that I've said in this thread or any other? That's a serious question, by the way. I'm trying to figure out what it is that I'm saying that appears to confuse people so thoroughly as to make them say things like what I've quoted here.
    People are trying to make it sound like the exploiters have some massive amount of clout and if they all go away theres going to be some huge collateral financial vortex that Turbine cant make up for. THis simply isnt true. That vortex already exists due to the business decisions to reduce endgame to a TR hamster wheel in hopes people will pay to circumvent it. There have been many eras where people tried to claim that "if this situation doesnt play out like I say it should the game will die" and none of the predicted mass exodus has ever occurred.

    The "I spent money here so its Ok, right" mentality doesnt work in other business level case scenarios either. Stores prosecute shoplifters to the fullest extent of the law even if they have been doing it for 7 years and buying something each time to cover up the fact that they are stealing even more. There is no financial collateral vortex that is going to cause the game to cave other than what already has existed for years now. The exploiters are but one mere symptom of the actual issue here, and that one symptom is not going to cause the financial implosion of the game as an entity any more than any other one symptom does.

    Banning them was the right thing to do as a BUSINESS DECISION. If they dont act we get more of the same "exploit early and often" attitude, which now leads to Turbine losing money, because once this mentality catches on, who is going to buy stuff from the store when it can be duplicated for free? Letting the exploiters have the run of the mill doesnt make them spend more money. It allows them to exploit more and get things which Turbine charges for, free.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  12. #552
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Wisconsin, birthplace of D&D
    Posts
    20,949

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    If they duplicate stuff and then sell it on the ASAH, then they're generating even more money for Turbine. That's a clear win for Turbine (in the short term at least) even though it's a loss for the game's integrity as a whole. It's why I'm pleasantly surprised that they fixed this latest exploit today as fast as they did. I'm very happy with both the speed and the method that they used to fix this.
    Until everyone else catches on and starts dupe-ing themselves, rather than buying off the AH.

    Im glad the noise generated from all this is prompting them to act faster too.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  13. #553
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Far beyond the ravens gate
    Posts
    5,512

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    If they duplicate stuff and then sell it on the ASAH, then they're generating even more money for Turbine. That's a clear win for Turbine (in the short term at least) even though it's a loss for the game's integrity as a whole. It's why I'm pleasantly surprised that they fixed this latest exploit today as fast as they did. I'm very happy with both the speed and the method that they used to fix this.
    If they sell for less than it would cost in the store, turbine makes a loss.

    If they sell for more, nobody buys.
    Dystopia = utopia achieved

  14. #554
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    3,689

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    People are trying to make it sound like the exploiters have some massive amount of clout and if they all go away theres going to be some huge collateral financial vortex that Turbine cant make up for. THis simply isnt true. That vortex already exists due to the business decisions to reduce endgame to a TR hamster wheel in hopes people will pay to circumvent it. There have been many eras where people tried to claim that "if this situation doesnt play out like I say it should the game will die" and none of the predicted mass exodus has ever occurred.

    The "I spent money here so its Ok, right" mentality doesnt work in other business level case scenarios either. Stores prosecute shoplifters to the fullest extent of the law even if they have been doing it for 7 years and buying something each time to cover up the fact that they are stealing even more. There is no financial collateral vortex that is going to cause the game to cave other than what already has existed for years now. The exploiters are but one mere symptom of the actual issue here, and that one symptom is not going to cause the financial implosion of the game as an entity any more than any other one symptom does.

    Banning them was the right thing to do as a BUSINESS DECISION. If they dont act we get more of the same "exploit early and often" attitude, which now leads to Turbine losing money, because once this mentality catches on, who is going to buy stuff from the store when it can be duplicated for free? Letting the exploiters have the run of the mill doesnt make them spend more money. It allows them to exploit more and get things which Turbine charges for, free.
    A two week ban or a four week ban really aren't any different from each other. The significant change between this round and previous rounds was the "extreme prejudice" (which didn't go nearly as far as I expected) item deletion that took place. The "exploit early and often" attitude came about because the enormous loot benefits of significant exploits were allowed to remain even if a DDO-vacation was put in place.

    In the short term, this exploit made them some quick cash through the ASAH (and I do absolutely believe that this exploit led to a short term increase in profit for Turbine). In the long term, I agree with your final paragraph 100%. Turbine really does seem to be putting DDO into maintenance mode in my opinion and they seem to be interested in grabbing any short term gains that they can get their hands on even if it is detrimental to the long term health of the game.
    No one in the world ever gets what they want
    And that is beautiful
    Everybody dies frustrated and sad
    And that is beautiful

  15. #555
    Community Member AzB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    1,556

    Default

    Just an observation, but the last couple of weeks have been relatively free of folks using EDs in heroic levels, at least blatantly.

    So I'm just gonna toss any scientific data gathering and analysis to the wind and use my anecdotal evidence to spitball;

    A) All the dupers are gone, so they were mostly the ones using the ED exploit as well.

    Or;

    2: Everyone saw the harsh punishments handed down to the exploiters and got skeered.

    And for the record, I've never duped or used EDs in heroic levels. Mostly because I'm too stupid (or maybe lazy) to figure out how, but that's not the point, I am above reproach regardless of the reasons.

  16. #556
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    3,689

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    If they sell for less than it would cost in the store, turbine makes a loss.

    If they sell for more, nobody buys.

    The question isn't whether they sell for less than it would cost in the store. The question is whether people spend more or less than they would have if the duplicated items weren't available.

    If Turbine sells the greater froob of hooping in the DDO store for 1000 TP and an exploiter is selling it on the ASAH for a price that causes Turbine to end up with 200 TP worth of my astral shards when I buy that duplicated item, that is only an 800 TP effective loss for Turbine *if I would have bought the greater froob of hooping from the DDO store in the first place*. If it causes me to make a purchase that I would not have otherwise made, then that's a net gain for Turbine's profits.

    When you consider that most of the items that were duplicated and sold on the ASAH weren't even available on the DDO store in the first place, it's pretty obvious as far as I'm concerned that Turbine made out on this exploit (again - only in the short term; I do agree that exploits like this are damaging to the long term health of the game and will result in a long term loss for DDO).
    No one in the world ever gets what they want
    And that is beautiful
    Everybody dies frustrated and sad
    And that is beautiful

  17. #557
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Far beyond the ravens gate
    Posts
    5,512

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AzB View Post
    Just an observation, but the last couple of weeks have been relatively free of folks using EDs in heroic levels, at least blatantly.

    So I'm just gonna toss any scientific data gathering and analysis to the wind and use my anecdotal evidence to spitball;

    A) All the dupers are gone, so they were mostly the ones using the ED exploit as well.

    Or;

    2: Everyone saw the harsh punishments handed down to the exploiters and got skeered.

    And for the record, I've never duped or used EDs in heroic levels. Mostly because I'm too stupid (or maybe lazy) to figure out how, but that's not the point, I am above reproach regardless of the reasons.
    In my case its a question of "why should i". Cheating in a MMO is pointless.
    Dystopia = utopia achieved

  18. #558
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Far beyond the ravens gate
    Posts
    5,512

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    The question isn't whether they sell for less than it would cost in the store. The question is whether people spend more or less than they would have if the duplicated items weren't available.

    If Turbine sells the greater froob of hooping in the DDO store for 1000 TP and an exploiter is selling it on the ASAH for a price that causes Turbine to end up with 200 TP worth of my astral shards when I buy that duplicated item, that is only an 800 TP effective loss for Turbine *if I would have bought the greater froob of hooping from the DDO store in the first place*. If it causes me to make a purchase that I would not have otherwise made, then that's a net gain for Turbine's profits.

    When you consider that most of the items that were duplicated and sold on the ASAH weren't even available on the DDO store in the first place, it's pretty obvious as far as I'm concerned that Turbine made out on this exploit (again - only in the short term; I do agree that exploits like this are damaging to the long term health of the game and will result in a long term loss for DDO).
    I dont think anybody bought shards just to buy the duped stuff. The best result gained is that the amount of shards in the economy got reduced, and people will buy more at some point. The worst s that turbine made a pure loss. (Thats my opinion, not anything to do with facts) But what the facts are, only turbine knows.
    Dystopia = utopia achieved

  19. #559
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    3,689

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    I dont think anybody bought shards just to buy the duped stuff. The best result gained is that the amount of shards in the economy got reduced, and people will buy more at some point. The worst s that turbine made a pure loss. (Thats my opinion, not anything to do with facts) But what the facts are, only turbine knows.
    I think that's likely true. From my perspective, anything that actively consumes shards is a revenue source for Turbine because that shard consumption is what drives the purchase of new shards, but I do see that the other viewpoint is also entirely valid.
    No one in the world ever gets what they want
    And that is beautiful
    Everybody dies frustrated and sad
    And that is beautiful

  20. #560
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    7,154

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    The thing that is really galling to me about all of this is that Turbine could keep a large amount of this from happening by actually fixing the bugs in a reasonable time frame after we alert them about those bugs/exploits.
    You're biggest (and mine for that matter) was trying to be rational with people in a subject matter that is not rational at all.

Page 28 of 30 FirstFirst ... 1824252627282930 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload