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  1. #521
    Community Member Arnhelm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by monsoon22 View Post
    You can not reason with those who are willfully unreasonable.
    /applause
    There is no free lunch.

  2. #522
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by monsoon22 View Post
    You can not reason with those who are willfully unreasonable. Attempting to do so only increases frustration and as that rises so does vulnerability to even more. Nasty and pointless circle.
    Wonderfully said, and a profound truth.

    But truth is a wonderful thing in that it applies to all sides of a discussion, and you are right here, I have wasted my time with those unwilling to listen to reason.

  3. #523
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xianio View Post
    Chai, you know that Ungood is a troll right? Not in the "ur a tr0ll!" because you're ****ed that someone said something dumb/disagrees with you. A troll like the original meaning/game (as it is just a game). The game he's playing is to continue to keep you just frustrated enough that you post long, time consuming posts while he posts one or two liners and takes pot shots.

    That's why it's always going back to the personal - because you've given away your tell. He writes "just" enough to make it seem like he's making a point while remaining ambiguous enough that he can sidestep in 2-3 directions so that no matter how well you refute his point, he gets to claim you're too dumb to understand what he's saying.

    The game ISN'T about proving he's right or wrong, it's about seeing how long he can keep you hooked on the line.

    Chai, you've found yourself down the rabbit hole. Come back up.
    Its a good thing my adventuring kit comes with rope, and a grappling hook.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  4. #524
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Its a good thing my adventuring kit comes with rope, and a grappling hook.
    You need a 10' pole to keep him away, im afraid.
    Dystopia = utopia achieved

  5. #525
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    You need a 10' pole to keep him away, im afraid.
    Feel free to borrow mine. He won't even respond to my posts anymore.

  6. #526
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    I
    1. Banning people will not solve anything.
    2. The only real fix is for Turbine to remove the bugs
    #2 is impossible... All software has bugs.

    #1 does work... Less people will exploit next time... It's not a perfect solution; some people will still exploit... but less people will do it.

    Your solution is naïve to the extreme... "Never punish anyone for cheating", "Never release code with bugs in it"
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  7. #527
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    1. Banning people will not solve anything.
    2. The only real fix is for Turbine to remove the bugs
    Banning people will help with the problem. No it won't solve it, but it will help limit it.

    They are removing bugs when they are able. Unless you mean they should code software that doesn't have any bugs to begin with, which is just naive.

  8. #528
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    #2 is impossible... All software has bugs.

    #1 does work... Less people will exploit next time... It's not a perfect solution; some people will still exploit... but less people will do it.

    Your solution is naïve to the extreme... "Never punish anyone for cheating", "Never release code with bugs in it"
    #2 is very possible. It's not possible to prevent all bugs from going live, but it's VERY possible to fix the bugs in a timely manner once Turbine learns about them. They just need to actually choose to make that a priority. It shouldn't (and doesn't if it's a priority) take multiple months to fix an exploit.
    No one in the world ever gets what they want
    And that is beautiful
    Everybody dies frustrated and sad
    And that is beautiful

  9. #529

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    ... you are right here, I have wasted my time ....
    Now that's the FIRST THING you got right in this entire thread.


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  10. #530
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    #2 is very possible. It's not possible to prevent all bugs from going live, but it's VERY possible to fix the bugs in a timely manner once Turbine learns about them. They just need to actually choose to make that a priority. It shouldn't (and doesn't if it's a priority) take multiple months to fix an exploit.
    Right, its more a matter of degree than an absolute.

    The rules that people disobeyed on the other hand are an absolute. Rules, laws, etc...arent going to stop everyone from breaking them - they will penalize those who do, and that penalty should be a deterrant to further exploitation of the system. The issue with Ungoods posts is he puts the entire onus on the company and then makes blanket statements like "banning doesnt solve anything". What he is doing is arguing absolutes in an environment where degree is more realistically applicable than absolutes.

    There is no such thing as bug free software, but Turbine could be alot closer to bug free than they are currently. Turbine could also be more sure and swift handed in banning exploiters than they have in the past too. Fixing the issues when reported means less exploits, and banning those who do exploit (which will be a smaller number due to being up to speed on fixing bugs) will then deter further exploitation.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  11. #531
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    I've been thinking about this and I wonder how long it would take Turbine to fix an exploit if that exploit after that exploit becomes common public knowledge if that exploit involved buying something from the DDO store or paying for the exploit with Astral Shards.

    If an exploit like that happened, would they rush to fix it and then harshly punish anyone who took part in that exploit? Or do you think that exploit would be put on a low-priority track and mostly ignored?
    No one in the world ever gets what they want
    And that is beautiful
    Everybody dies frustrated and sad
    And that is beautiful

  12. #532
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    I've been thinking about this and I wonder how long it would take Turbine to fix an exploit if that exploit after that exploit becomes common public knowledge if that exploit involved buying something from the DDO store or paying for the exploit with Astral Shards.

    If an exploit like that happened, would they rush to fix it and then harshly punish anyone who took part in that exploit? Or do you think that exploit would be put on a low-priority track and mostly ignored?
    I highly doubt they would fix such a thing if people were spending money. They might eventually if the cry babies threatened to leave if Turbine did not have the integrity to fix it.
    Flabby-Flaber-Flabo--Heifer-Oinks

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  13. #533
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    Default I don't know anyone who cheated...

    ....but since you can't tell a previously banned person from a person with a clean record I suggest in addition to deleting the ill gotten items I say remove a leg from all of their toons and make their base run speed to be about half the speed of an encumbered cleric. Oh and make all their armor the ugliest shade of orange you can find.

  14. #534

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    Quote Originally Posted by DelverRootnose1 View Post
    ....but since you can't tell a previously banned person from a person with a clean record I suggest in addition to deleting the ill gotten items I say remove a leg from all of their toons and make their base run speed to be about half the speed of an encumbered cleric. Oh and make all their armor the ugliest shade of orange you can find.
    LOL!! Never even thought of changing their appearance. That's funny... Cutting their run speed is brilliant.

    I see nothing wrong with marking them somehow, even if only a small red dot next to their name, that they've had their account suspended or revoked in the past. I'd add in game mail, bank privileges, auction house, trading, and communication features are suspended for 5 times the actual suspension. So if they got a 30 day vacation, they can come back on day 31, however they cant use most game systems for the remainder of 150 days. Painful, sure, but then there must be an "oh $hiytee!!" element. This will mean their "hidden" mule accounts with all the remaining evidence is useless, as they cant trade or mail stuff back to the main account.
    Last edited by LeslieWest_GuitarGod; 11-01-2013 at 02:17 AM.


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  15. #535
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    The only way that Turbine can come out on top in this sort of exploit/ban situation, is to improve the quality of the code they write, and improve their QA departument, such that these exploits are not possible in the first place.

    Anything else is a lose/lose situation.

  16. #536
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twinkly View Post
    The only way that Turbine can come out on top in this sort of exploit/ban situation, is to improve the quality of the code they write, and improve their QA departument, such that these exploits are not possible in the first place.

    Anything else is a lose/lose situation.
    I have been saying that since the start of this discussion, I was told I was wasting my time, damn me for trying to put logic into these kinds of discussions.

  17. #537
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    I have been saying that since the start of this discussion, I was told I was wasting my time, damn me for trying to put logic into these kinds of discussions.
    Its like saying that before it starts to rain umbrellas should pop out of the ground. A good idea, but...
    Dystopia = utopia achieved

  18. #538
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twinkly View Post
    The only way that Turbine can come out on top in this sort of exploit/ban situation, is to improve the quality of the code they write, and improve their QA departument, such that these exploits are not possible in the first place.

    Anything else is a lose/lose situation.
    And in order for that to happen, there needs to be a focus on that aspect in the first place. Ive been talking about the erosion of this for 3 years now, and many of the folks who are now saying this is the ONLY way it can happen, were shouting me down in diametrically opposed disagreement in those conversations. Since this cannot be directly measured in money, the things that can be directly measured in money are what gain primary focus.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  19. #539
    Community Member Hathorian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallout_Zero View Post
    Who loses in the end? Turbine and existing players.

    Banned players are doing something else, and might not comeback. Talking about long time players.
    If people I know are not coming back looks like almost time to call it quits too.
    A lot of people talk to feel the same way.

    On the bright side for the people cheering for permanent bans might get what they want. People not coming back. And maybe all like minded people can play on same sever as they do server merges.

    DDO had a good run.
    So people should cheat and ruin the game and face no consequences. Gotcha!

  20. #540
    Community Member Deathdefy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeslieWest_GuitarGod View Post
    LOL!! Never even thought of changing their appearance. That's funny... Cutting their run speed is brilliant.

    I see nothing wrong with marking them somehow, even if only a small red dot next to their name, that they've had their account suspended or revoked in the past. I'd add in game mail, bank privileges, auction house, trading, and communication features are suspended for 5 times the actual suspension. So if they got a 30 day vacation, they can come back on day 31, however they cant use most game systems for the remainder of 150 days. Painful, sure, but then there must be an "oh $hiytee!!" element. This will mean their "hidden" mule accounts with all the remaining evidence is useless, as they cant trade or mail stuff back to the main account.
    A big scarlet "A" emblazoned on their chest would let everyone know they were undesirables.
    Khyber: Aggrim (Completionist!)
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