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  1. #481
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallout_Zero View Post

    DDO had a good run.
    Not lately

  2. #482
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicMew View Post
    How about some actual evidence to back up anything you're saying. You say there's no mass exodus? I say over half the player base has left the game in the past two years based on 2-3 different sources.
    in what you quoted, hes talking about how exploiters leaving the game wont hurt DDO. there are always players talking about leaving and the best evidence ive seen doing it is the recent showing of cancelled subs. there has been a decline the last couple years, but its the direction, development, grind and bugs that are the main reasons. exploiters that get banned and leave the game will not have enough of a dent on the population to matter.

  3. #483

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    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicMew View Post
    How about some actual evidence to back up anything you're saying. You say there's no mass exodus? I say over half the player base has left the game in the past two years based on 2-3 different sources.
    There are many reasons people leave a game after playing it for upwards of 7 years. There hasn't been a single exploit that has caused the type of departures you are insinuating. The last two to three years has been evolutionary, bordering on revolutionary changes to the mmo gaming market, as mobile gaming had finally kicked into high gear. Add to it the Zinga/Steam markets... as well as all the new f2p games from so many different international markets.

    Naturally it's more than that. I believe far more have left due to the two paid expansions... especially the first one (the first one was a serious shock to the player base... not so much surprise as in, $ouch$.) As much as I was against charging for it (not to mention the cost, especially those ViPs who've been pumping thousands into the game over the years), maybe, just maybe they WEREN'T being greedy. Maybe, they needed the flow of cash to keep the team working on our little 7 year old game. Still, however you shake it, it was the paid expansions that gave people a legitimate reason (cost) to convince themselves that it was time to go.

    DDO had a few things going for it though . The depth of the character creation, the fun of combat, and the camaraderie they enjoyed encouraged many to come back after a month or so. Plenty of evidence, we all know someone.

    Lastly horrid changes to our website here really fractured our forum community, overnight, and it still hasnt, nor ever will fully recover. Add bugs to the list and I think to anyone who's been around, exploits or Turbines reaction to the guilty, would have to be dead last on most people' short list of reasons why people left the game.

    So there you have it. From my viewpoint, Chai on this one I believe is fairly spot on.
    Last edited by LeslieWest_GuitarGod; 10-28-2013 at 12:00 AM.


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  4. #484

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    People keep dancing around the subject and I will say it this last time. There are hypothetically 2 new exploits in game. Neither of them are connected with the store or Turbine losing substantial money. Looking at the track record of Turbine, when these issues are brought up on the forums (coming soon), Turbine will label them as NOT WAI, and not ban anyone that was doing them.

    The message Turbine is sending out is “It is okay to cheat if you do not hurt our P2W mechanic”. You can dance around it and say whatever you like, but this is what it is. It is of course Turbine’s sandbox, but please do not link them with integrity.
    This story isnt written yet. Fixes like this can take quite a bit of time to find a solution. Hypothetically -they may be watching each moron "perform" these tasks, as they formulate a plan of action, before delving out punishments. This place will erupt in laughter if people get caught again because they are blind/dumb enough to do anything stupid during this time. And I know for sure... some are that stupid. Turbine does need to show the risk is too great for most to exploit. You can bet cheaters are watching Turbines every move now. The solution this time may not be swift, but they certainly stomped a mudhole in quite a few illegitimate inventories -- and to me they are looking very good right now. I agree with you of course though, there's more to do.

    Its not Turbine's fault people cheat. Cheaters are ALWAYS 100% to blame. If I come back in 2 weeks and see another 100 accounts bent over with their rears in the air like this group currently is... I hope you'll be cheering along with us Vint.
    Last edited by LeslieWest_GuitarGod; 10-28-2013 at 05:21 AM.


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  5. #485
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeslieWest_GuitarGod View Post
    This story isnt written yet. Fixes like this can take quite a bit of time to find a solution. Hypothetically -they may be watching each moron "perform" these tasks, as they formulate a plan of action, before delving out punishments. This place will erupt in laughter if people get caught again because they are blind/dumb enough to do anything stupid during this. And I know for sure... some are that stupid.

    Its not Turbine's fault people cheat. Cheaters are ALWAYS 100% to blame. If I come back in 2 weeks and see another 100 accounts bent over with their rears in the air like this group currently is... I hope you'll be cheering along with us.
    The exploiters are *responsible* for their own actions sure.... but turbine are not saints either, and their actions in the past and double standards are not something to be proud of, they for sure are not pillars of integrity.

    Don't get me wrong exploiters should be punished and im satisfied that the appropriate action has been taken.

    Cheering? Even in my personal experience when someone has wronged me and they got their lawful punishment I was not cheering or celebrating or carrying on............I don't get why some people go all in for that. I guess its an easy thing to kick a dog when its down even if it deserves to be down there.

  6. #486
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeslieWest_GuitarGod View Post
    This story isnt written yet. Fixes like this can take quite a bit of time to find a solution. Hypothetically -they may be watching each moron "perform" these tasks, as they formulate a plan of action, before delving out punishments. This place will erupt in laughter if people get caught again because they are blind/dumb enough to do anything stupid during this. And I know for sure... some are that stupid.

    Its not Turbine's fault people cheat. Cheaters are ALWAYS 100% to blame. If I come back in 2 weeks and see another 100 accounts bent over with their rears in the air like this group currently is... I hope you'll be cheering along with us.
    I was refering to P2W. Before F2P Turbine was severe with handing out bans. Now if someone is bad we will only give them a slap on the wrist in hopes that they come back and spend. People may say it is not proof, but is direct evidence that P2W trumps everything else.
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  7. #487

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    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalHazard View Post
    The exploiters are *responsible* for their own actions sure.... but turbine are not saints either, and their actions in the past and double standards are not something to be proud of, they for sure are not pillars of integrity.

    Don't get me wrong exploiters should be punished and im satisfied that the appropriate action has been taken.

    Cheering? Even in my personal experience when someone has wronged me and they got their lawful punishment I was not cheering or celebrating or carrying on............I don't get why some people go all in for that. I guess its an easy thing to kick a dog when its down even if it deserves to be down there.
    Cheer was maybe too strong a word, but satisfaction, absolutely. I don't believe in kicking a dog when he's down, that's also too strong a statement. Remember, the "dog" is down because he tripped himself. Nobody pushed him. Would I be happy for the community as a whole that a cheater were taken down a notch or banned? Absolutely. Its better for the game, and for people that run the game that don't get caught up in all that jazz. This is who I play the game with each time I log in, so of course I'm happy to see someone get admonished for cheating the system.

    I wont comment on the evil Turbine stuff. Its out of context here. This time around, they did a good thing. I believe some of what people get mad at Turbine for is misguided. WB has a lot to do with many decisions Turbine makes... especially in the $$ columns.
    Last edited by LeslieWest_GuitarGod; 10-28-2013 at 05:57 AM.


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  8. #488

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    I was refering to P2W. Before F2P Turbine was severe with handing out bans. Now if someone is bad we will only give them a slap on the wrist in hopes that they come back and spend. People may say it is not proof, but is direct evidence that P2W trumps everything else.
    Oh I agree there. 100%. But that's business. Perma-banning someone out of the game is a last resort, and should be. Modern technology sadly makes it near impossible to keep someone out that really wants to get back in tho if you think about it. Reaching into their inventory and taking a handful of stuff will definitely get the word out there, and dont think for a second that people arent swearing to themselves that now they have to re-farm their stuff all over again. A very very smart move here by Turbine, and they should continue doing this.
    Last edited by LeslieWest_GuitarGod; 10-28-2013 at 05:46 AM.


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  9. #489
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    What exactly can I refute? I linked you the definition by Webster's, which supports that I am using the word absolutely correctly.

    [/FONT][/COLOR]

    At this point, there is nothing to discuss or refute, That's what the word means, and that means you're wrong, I'm right, in how to use it, that's the end of it.

    Have a good day, and next time as opposed to just making up what you think a word means, use this: http://www.merriam-webster.com/
    You quoted my statement that if you asked any business owner what they will call someone whose direct actions lost their business money, the word customer would not come into the equation, then proceeded to post a complete lack of refutation of that statement. I did not need to make up what the word means. Youre actually reinforcing my stance on the issue, albeit in attempt to disagree, by posting the literal definition.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  10. #490
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HernandoCortez View Post

    The new reincarnation system that will take money from us by removing the usefulness of Epic Tokens

    I think the message is clear EVERYONE got hit with their "extreme prejudice" witch hunt, not only the exploiters.
    Glin explained they were planning "Phase out" epic tokens aka: Tokens of the Twelve, as they had served their purpose. Their motive has nothing to do with the bug, it had to do with how easy players could farm epic tokens in today's game, and they wanted to put in a means to make so that players had to chose between a discouraging grind, or just buy the heart, as it had been originally set up. The move away from "Tokens of the Twelve" has been in the works for some time now and has everything to do with money and nothing else.

  11. #491
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    I did not need to make up what the word means.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    It means, exactly what I think it means, and is used exactly as I used it.

    But then again, that seems to be a signature aspect of you, just making up what you want things to mean. So, what shall I be telling people what you think Customer means when you being this up again. I'll add it to the list of other terms you have butchered, like P2W.

  12. #492
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicMew View Post
    How about some actual evidence to back up anything you're saying. You say there's no mass exodus? I say over half the player base has left the game in the past two years based on 2-3 different sources.
    According to those sources, they haven't left. They come back when a significant update is released and leave a few months later due to nothing to do. I was using those same numbers to show exactly this 2+ years ago while those who disagreed with me were attempting to demonize and dismiss the sources of those numbers. The length of time between when people can attain all their goals in DDO compared to how long it takes to develop new content is such a wide gap now that the dead zones between significant content updates are getting larger comparatively, timewise.

    P.S. The first time in 2011 when I posted the MMOdata numbers and correlated them with the log on numbers from the DDO site, the sheer number of folks attempting to shout me down in disbelief using dismissal and raw denial was hilarious. Many of those same folks are now trying to use this same data to act like banning is going to damage the game. Cute. They need to do a history check in 2008 when the game had less players than it does now and people were banned for a specific event that occurred. The fact that we are still here talking about it, after the same type of justification mentality took place back then as well, WITH MANY OF THE SAME PEOPLE DOING THE JUSTIFYING is proof enough. All those people who threatened to quit. None did at the time. Some attrited more recently, but most are still here to threaten to leave again.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  13. #493
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    It means, exactly what I think it means, and is used exactly as I used it.
    Nope. wrong again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    But then again, that seems to be a signature aspect of you, just making up what you want things to mean. So, what shall I be telling people what you think Customer means when you being this up again. I'll add it to the list of other terms you have butchered, like P2W.
    You clearly understand that my question regarding what the business owners would call these people in any other business context is correct. Thus you continue to gloss over it. It doesn't matter that someone actually bought stuff from the store for 7 years to cover up the fact that they were stealing even more. They would be penalized the same way as a person who stole an equal amount but never paid a dime. Put that into perspective in any other business climate and you get the same results.

    Keep quoting the literal definition and continue to banter that it applies as a blanket statement. Each time this occurs, the hole gets deeper and deeper. The fact that the last time you did this you were supporting the very actions that allowed focus to be taken off the quality of the game, which you and the rest of the justifiers are pointing to the result of now as justification of exploitation, is hilarious.
    Last edited by Chai; 10-28-2013 at 06:56 AM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  14. #494
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    that seems to be a signature aspect of you, just making up what you want things to mean
    He said without realizing the irony of it all.

  15. #495
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeslieWest_GuitarGod View Post
    There are many reasons people leave a game after playing it for upwards of 7 years. There hasn't been a single exploit that has caused the type of departures you are insinuating. The last two to three years has been evolutionary, bordering on revolutionary changes to the mmo gaming market, as mobile gaming had finally kicked into high gear. Add to it the Zinga/Steam markets... as well as all the new f2p games from so many different international markets.

    Naturally it's more than that. I believe far more have left due to the two paid expansions... especially the first one (the first one was a serious shock to the player base... not so much surprise as in, $ouch$.) As much as I was against charging for it (not to mention the cost, especially those ViPs who've been pumping thousands into the game over the years), maybe, just maybe they WEREN'T being greedy. Maybe, they needed the flow of cash to keep the team working on our little 7 year old game. Still, however you shake it, it was the paid expansions that gave people a legitimate reason (cost) to convince themselves that it was time to go.

    DDO had a few things going for it though . The depth of the character creation, the fun of combat, and the camaraderie they enjoyed encouraged many to come back after a month or so. Plenty of evidence, we all know someone.

    Lastly horrid changes to our website here really fractured our forum community, overnight, and it still hasnt, nor ever will fully recover. Add bugs to the list and I think to anyone who's been around, exploits or Turbines reaction to the guilty, would have to be dead last on most people' short list of reasons why people left the game.

    So there you have it. From my viewpoint, Chai on this one I believe is fairly spot on.
    I do agree with LeslieWest on this issue. I don't believe that Turbine's disciplinary actions (and lack thereof for previous exploits) have caused or will cause any significant change in the DDO player base. The dramatic change that I've seen in the number of players in DDO over the past couple of years comes from exactly what LeslieWest pointed out as well as general quality of life issues (bugs, crashes, repeated logins required to get in, etc.).
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  16. #496
    Community Member HernandoCortez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    The move away from "Tokens of the Twelve" has been in the works for some time now and has everything to do with money and nothing else.
    This is as bad then...
    EXTREME PREJUDICE™ - by Turbine.

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  17. #497
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeslieWest_GuitarGod View Post
    Its not Turbine's fault people cheat. Cheaters are ALWAYS 100% to blame. If I come back in 2 weeks and see another 100 accounts bent over with their rears in the air like this group currently is... I hope you'll be cheering along with us Vint.
    Everyone in this world is 100% responsible for their own actions, but that also includes Turbine. Turbine is responsible for making exploits so very available and attractive just as the exploiters are responsible for reaching out to grab that low hanging fruit. I don't ever like the idea of "blaming the victim", but Turbine isn't the victim for most of their exploits. Heck, they made a substantial amount of money on the Shears exploit.
    No one in the world ever gets what they want
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  18. #498
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    Everyone in this world is 100% responsible for their own actions, but that also includes Turbine. Turbine is responsible for making exploits so very available and attractive just as the exploiters are responsible for reaching out to grab that low hanging fruit. I don't ever like the idea of "blaming the victim", but Turbine isn't the victim for most of their exploits. Heck, they made a substantial amount of money on the Shears exploit.
    This is why I support how loud the community has been on the exploit issue lately. The more loud people get about it, the less they can sweep it under the rug and prioritize it low, which is what gets them into this mess in the first place. Part of the entire issue is the "exploit early and often" mentality that has plagued the game for too long now.

    Some folks are treating it like blame is some sort of a sliding scale where the more we blame the exploiters the less we blame Turbine. I dont see it that way and it seems you dont either. Since they are two different entities, both can be looked at accordingly, and objectively.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  19. #499
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    You clearly understand that my question regarding what the business owners would call these people in any other business context is correct.
    By this metric you're not a customer either, as no business owner would call someone a customer who berates and harasses the other people who want to buy their product for doing so.

    So, in that regard, I am the customer, while you are not.
    Last edited by Ungood; 10-28-2013 at 12:21 PM. Reason: had to clean up the phrasing.

  20. #500
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    Everyone in this world is 100% responsible for their own actions, but that also includes Turbine. Turbine is responsible for making exploits so very available and attractive just as the exploiters are responsible for reaching out to grab that low hanging fruit. I don't ever like the idea of "blaming the victim", but Turbine isn't the victim for most of their exploits. Heck, they made a substantial amount of money on the Shears exploit.
    This is why it irks me how far certain factions of the community go to vilify the exploiters. They were wrong, and they have been punished. But, by and large, they are not the evil destructive bastards like some sycophants would like you to believe. Most of the people who cheated did so because Turbine had established a precedent where it really didn't matter if you cheated. The most people normally received was a 3 day ban. Thus, through a lack of enforcing their rules, Turbine fostered an atmosphere in the game where people believed if they did not cheat, they missed out on an opportunity to get ahead. Thus the commonly repeated mantra of "exploit early and often." This doesn't justify cheating, and yes the cheaters are responsible for what they did, but they are not alone in the blame for this. Turbine conditioned people to cheat through repeated instances of providing rewards that were much greater than the risk.
    Last edited by Xaenith; 10-28-2013 at 12:41 PM.

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