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  1. #441
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zDragonz View Post
    With all do respect. This exploit was like 9/11 for this game!

    .
    lol!!!!!!........................... and just like 9/11 the conspiracy theories abound.....................

  2. #442
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallout_Zero View Post
    Its really easy to say perma-ban often and hard on large number of paying customers when its not your money. Really easy.
    If you start spending thousands of dollars a year. Well you and many many others, then maybe Turbine can afford to lose some paying customers.
    Fix your product and policies first.
    Did Turbine perma-ban anyone for a single infraction?

    No, this is just another example of your fear-mongering tactic. There were no permabans for this one exploit infraction - if people had a history of infractions perhaps, but it was likely deserved in that case.

    Spending money on this game doesn't give you the right to cheat period. Whether you spend $0 on this game or $1000 if you exploit you will have to live with the consequences. What about the people that spend money on the game but don't cheat? Do they get anything special for not cheating? That group far outnumbers the high-spending exploiters.

    Making a perfect product and having perfect policies isn't necessary to enforce the integrity of this game. That needs to be done regardless of what defects may exist in the product and policies. Sure, they should work on that. But they shouldn't turn a blind eye to exploits because they have issues to deal with.

    Stop looking at Turbine and look in the mirror. The exploiters did wrong and they were punished. That was the right thing for Turbine to do.

  3. #443
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Humm, I wonder, do you really expect us all to believe that only accounts that never spent a single cent on the game got banned?

    Otherwise, yes Chai, they were Customers.
    Go into any business and ask them what they call those who steal from them. The word customer will not come out of their mouth. The fact that the person has a 7 year purchasing history wont factor into the equation, other than the business owner wondering how long they have been stealing and buying stuff to cover up the fact they were stealing even more.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  4. #444
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antheal View Post
    Isn't the whole point of this that Turbine were warned in advance that this exploit existed and yet they still pushed it through to live. And then they were YET AGAIN informed that this exploit was live, but they didn't do anything about it as soon as they could have, and should have, done.

    If you tell someone about an exploit and they give a very strong impression that they just don't care, what conclusion can you gain from that?
    That goes the other way too.

    If you tell someone about an exploit and they give a very strong impression that they actually do care, what conclusion can you gain from that?

    Now it will depend on the action taken to show they do care. If they start banning the exploiters then it shows they want to protect the integrity of the product. If they put the item involved in triggering the exploit on sale in the store.....well....still shows they care, but about something else entirely.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  5. #445
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    If they put the item involved in triggering the exploit on sale in the store.....well....still shows they care, but about something else entirely.
    That is the point of this after 24 pages. I think we can all agree at this point that the cheaters deserved what they got.

    These people that are drooling all over Turbine need to look at history and what is going on in the present. They continue to allow exploits to occur atm. Like you say they nearly condoned it when they put the shears in the store and then “fixed” them a week later.

    The paladins here can keep defending Turbine thinking that they have integrity, but the only thing they care about is money. Why not go after some people that are currently using other exploits? If they had integrity they would. It is all about the dollar though so they promote an atmosphere of only banning or punishing cheaters when it hurts the money aspect. Some of the people here that keep saying Turbine is doing a good job of punishing cheaters needs to wake up. It is going on every day on every server and Turbine does nothing about it.

    This once again shows that Turbine cares more about the dollar while letting integrity go to the way side no matter what the Palidans here think.
    Flabby-Flaber-Flabo--Heifer-Oinks

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  6. #446
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    The paladins here can keep defending Turbine thinking that they have integrity...
    Who are these 'paladins'? Perhaps you could quote some names, because I'm not seeing anyone say that Turbine is 'good,' 'perfect,' 'holy' or whatever paladin is a stand in for.

    Does this frustration of yours actually have a target or is it just a boogieman that you've made up?

  7. #447
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    Quote Originally Posted by unacceptable View Post
    Did Turbine perma-ban anyone for a single infraction?

    No, this is just another example of your fear-mongering tactic. There were no permabans for this one exploit infraction - if people had a history of infractions perhaps, but it was likely deserved in that case.

    Spending money on this game doesn't give you the right to cheat period. Whether you spend $0 on this game or $1000 if you exploit you will have to live with the consequences. What about the people that spend money on the game but don't cheat? Do they get anything special for not cheating? That group far outnumbers the high-spending exploiters.

    Making a perfect product and having perfect policies isn't necessary to enforce the integrity of this game. That needs to be done regardless of what defects may exist in the product and policies. Sure, they should work on that. But they shouldn't turn a blind eye to exploits because they have issues to deal with.

    Stop looking at Turbine and look in the mirror. The exploiters did wrong and they were punished. That was the right thing for Turbine to do.
    I am not advocating they don't get punished but rather the whole sloppiness Turbine did this. Turbine said 2 weeks and destroy some inventory. Fine.

    What is not fine is auto ban shortly before the original ban expired because of yet another bug in the buy back. Despite being warned in the forums prior. Sloppy. Then real paying customers whom Turbine help them ween off DDO, they do something else. So Turbine loses paying customers and community loses vet players. Like I asked, what does this extra 2 week auto ban hurt? Certainly not the people who used they bugs.

    Another key thing another poster said, people are opportunist by nature. They are not criminals in real life. The bug was told by other people naturally some people want to check it out. After a day or two, Turbine said and did nothing. Meanwhile this bug gone wildfire. Detailed instructions posted on the Internet. A lot of people know it. Well then, might as well play with the bug some more. Some got caught but majority didn't.

    Turbine shouldn't turn a blind eye but neither can they shift the blame entirely on the players.

  8. #448
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xianio View Post
    Who are these 'paladins'? Perhaps you could quote some names, because I'm not seeing anyone say that Turbine is 'good,' 'perfect,' 'holy' or whatever paladin is a stand in for.

    Does this frustration of yours actually have a target or is it just a boogieman that you've made up?
    Anyone here that thinks Turbine is doing a masterful job at getting all the cheaters. If there are exploits still happening, and little is done about it, it just promotes “cheat early and often”. I am not mad that Turbine is going out and getting the bad guys, but until they show that they are willing to be this aggressive with every exploit, what lesson is really learned? Cheat early and often and maybe you will be overlooked.
    Flabby-Flaber-Flabo--Heifer-Oinks

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  9. #449
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    Anyone here that thinks Turbine is doing a masterful job at getting all the cheaters. If there are exploits still happening, and little is done about it, it just promotes “cheat early and often”. I am not mad that Turbine is going out and getting the bad guys, but until they show that they are willing to be this aggressive with every exploit, what lesson is really learned? Cheat early and often and maybe you will be overlooked.
    Yeah, I know what you're frustrated about but I don't see people writing anything that would make them fall into your "anybody" category. Are you sure that these people actually exist?

    So Turbine loses paying customers and community loses vet players. Like I asked, what does this extra 2 week auto ban hurt? Certainly not the people who used they bugs.

    Another key thing another poster said, people are opportunist by nature. They are not criminals in real life. The bug was told by other people naturally some people want to check it out. After a day or two, Turbine said and did nothing. Meanwhile this bug gone wildfire. Detailed instructions posted on the Internet. A lot of people know it. Well then, might as well play with the bug some more. Some got caught but majority didn't.
    Everything quoted here comes from nothing but your guesses. If you want to claim 'this is what happened' that's fine, but you don't have any info we don't. We know these are guesses.
    Last edited by Xianio; 10-27-2013 at 12:00 PM.

  10. #450
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    That is the point of this after 24 pages. I think we can all agree at this point that the cheaters deserved what they got.

    These people that are drooling all over Turbine need to look at history and what is going on in the present. They continue to allow exploits to occur atm. Like you say they nearly condoned it when they put the shears in the store and then “fixed” them a week later.

    The paladins here can keep defending Turbine thinking that they have integrity, but the only thing they care about is money. Why not go after some people that are currently using other exploits? If they had integrity they would. It is all about the dollar though so they promote an atmosphere of only banning or punishing cheaters when it hurts the money aspect. Some of the people here that keep saying Turbine is doing a good job of punishing cheaters needs to wake up. It is going on every day on every server and Turbine does nothing about it.

    This once again shows that Turbine cares more about the dollar while letting integrity go to the way side no matter what the Palidans here think.
    What you are talking about is, in part, exactly what I outlined in all the p2w discussions. Most people who disagreed with me were all measuring the current literal impact. "Who cares about +5 tomes, its just a 1 mod over a +3 tome" etc....on each and every issue the current literal impact was measured, found to be "minimal" and then the excuse that "Turbine needs to make money" was heavily leaned on.

    What was not understood by most, after I posted it 50+ times on these very forums over the years, is the long term impact. Once avid support for store bought character power was realized, it allowed Turbine to untether the financial success of the game from the quality of the game itself, and hitch it to store bought character power, cosmetics, and designing the game around pay for convenience, pay to circumvent barriers etc.

    What happens here is the decisions go along those same lines as well. Its no longer "we better maintain the quality and integrity of the game or people wont pay to play it" like it was in the sub era and shortly after f2p happened when major store sales were centered around buying content. Its now a decision based on net financial gain only, and if fixing an exploit costs more than letting it slide, it gets prioritized low and stays in the game a long time. The fact is now the quality of the game doesn't keep the game alive in and of itself. The degree by which they can get people to buy stuff does. When that exploit hits their bottom line negatively like this one did (and had a lot more potential to the longer they ignored it) - the more we can expect them to do something about it. If it does not hit the bottom line, it will sit in the game a while, because even if it affects the quality / integrity of the game itself, the financial success of DDO is no longer directly tethered to those things. When it was in the past they took action - remember the reaver debacle of 2007?
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  11. #451
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallout_Zero View Post
    I am not advocating they don't get punished but rather the whole sloppiness Turbine did this. Turbine said 2 weeks and destroy some inventory. Fine.

    What is not fine is auto ban shortly before the original ban expired because of yet another bug in the buy back. Despite being warned in the forums prior. Sloppy. Then real paying customers whom Turbine help them ween off DDO, they do something else. So Turbine loses paying customers and community loses vet players. Like I asked, what does this extra 2 week auto ban hurt? Certainly not the people who used they bugs.

    Another key thing another poster said, people are opportunist by nature. They are not criminals in real life. The bug was told by other people naturally some people want to check it out. After a day or two, Turbine said and did nothing. Meanwhile this bug gone wildfire. Detailed instructions posted on the Internet. A lot of people know it. Well then, might as well play with the bug some more. Some got caught but majority didn't.

    Turbine shouldn't turn a blind eye but neither can they shift the blame entirely on the players.
    I take it then that you have recanted from earlier and have decided that it is better to not punish at all and return their accounts to active and allow them to buyback then it is to extend the ban to allow this to be fixed? Again, it is either that or what they are doing, you can't have both. As to whether it is "sloppy" or not on the point of Turbine does not change that.

    I guess the best counter title of the thread if they just let them back would be "What point for the ban when nothing changed and they kept their stuff?" Wouldn't that just be a reinforcement that exploiting has no real consequences? Honestly your position holds no grounds for you to be satisfied one way or the other.

    To others, as to whether in game problems that cost the company money recieve higher priority then others, well of course it will. I personally don't see the point of disputing or being upset about this as any and all companies make such decisions everyday they are in business. Is kind of like a triage for business where impact both long and short term are weighed against required resources to correct. That is precisely why not being able to climb a ladder everytime is a long term existing bug, it costs nothing, people work around it and has minimal impact on the product so does not justify throwing huge resources into debugging the game engine to repair. Likely when the services shut down for good it will still be there, is how life works. And yes, customer retention is a financial impact that is ALWAYS weighed, and so therefore by extension so is perception of quality. Latching onto the point it is all about money for Turbine seems to me pointless. They are a corporation, in the end yeah, it is all about money. This can't really be a big surprise, is it? Companies who do not care about money don't appear on any stock exchanges, they are called charities. Actually, come to think on it, they are all about money too...

  12. #452
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xianio View Post
    Who are these 'paladins'? Perhaps you could quote some names, because I'm not seeing anyone say that Turbine is 'good,' 'perfect,' 'holy' or whatever paladin is a stand in for.

    Does this frustration of yours actually have a target or is it just a boogieman that you've made up?
    Ah, the paladins (or the ones believing they are) are on the side of the exploiters, since they are fighting the good fight against the evil company that banned people for falling victim to the exploit-trap.
    Dystopia = utopia achieved

  13. #453
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    Ah, the paladins (or the ones believing they are) are on the side of the exploiters, since they are fighting the good fight against the evil company that banned people for falling victim to the exploit-trap.
    What paladins?

    All I see involved in this is blackguards...................Evil exploiters and Evil company...........the company runs the country.........they don't mind if you rape and pillage just as long as they are getting their cut...........lol.

    ain't no saints round here.
    Last edited by NaturalHazard; 10-27-2013 at 02:58 PM.

  14. #454
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    Only reason they are taking this exploit so seriously is because people mass duped two things that are directly associated with major DDO store purchases:

    Medium Eberron fragments, which trade for Major Exp Elixirs, and Tokens of the 12 which trade for True Hearts of Wood.



    It is consistent with their history-- any time an exploit impacts the bottom line, it gets fixed. Otherwise, it gets ignored.

  15. #455
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    Quote Originally Posted by IWPlatinumPlatypus View Post
    Would you WANT to play a game with people who are breaking rules, raising h...chaos, and doing what they wanted.
    Yeah, sure. Why not? They aren't really impacting my play, so why should I care what they're doing? Are they making the lag worse? Are they making terrible design decisions? No? Then they arent' a huge problem, unlike those who are doing those things.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Youre actually enforcing the point youre disagreeing with. Any DM that would allow PunPun into their campaign wouldn't have a fun game for anyone else.
    Only if they are a crappy DM. Good DMs can work with these things.

  16. #456
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Go into any business and ask them what they call those who steal from them. The word customer will not come out of their mouth. The fact that the person has a 7 year purchasing history wont factor into the equation, other than the business owner wondering how long they have been stealing and buying stuff to cover up the fact they were stealing even more.
    Oh this is a Chai-ism then, where you just go around making up what you think words mean.

  17. #457
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    Anyone here that thinks Turbine is doing a masterful job at getting all the cheaters. If there are exploits still happening, and little is done about it, it just promotes “cheat early and often”. I am not mad that Turbine is going out and getting the bad guys, but until they show that they are willing to be this aggressive with every exploit, what lesson is really learned? Cheat early and often and maybe you will be overlooked.
    If I had to ask for one lesson to learned from this it would be "Stop telling stupid people stuff they can't handle knowing about"

  18. #458
    2016 DDO Players Council Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FalseFlag View Post
    Yeah, sure. Why not? They aren't really impacting my play, so why should I care what they're doing? Are they making the lag worse? Are they making terrible design decisions? No? Then they arent' a huge problem, unlike those who are doing those things.
    perfect example of not being able to look beyond ones nose which is a major problem with players in this game. "if it doesn't directly affect me, it doesn't affect me at all". wrong.
    Gary Gygax quotes

    The essence of a role-playing game is that it is a group, cooperative experience.

    There is no winning or losing, but rather the value is in the experience of imagining yourself as a character in whatever genre you are involved in, whether its a fantasy game, the Wild West, secret agents or whatever else. You get to sort of vicariously experience those things.

    Role-playing isn't storytelling. If the dungeon master is directing it, its not a game.

    When AI approximates Machine Intelligence, than many online and computer run RPGs will move toward actual RPG activity. Nonetheless, that will not replace the experience of "being there" anymore than seeing a theatrical motion picture can replace the stage play.

    The secret we should never let the game masters know is that they don't need any rules.

  19. #459
    Community Member Antheal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xianio View Post
    Who are these 'paladins'? Perhaps you could quote some names, because I'm not seeing anyone say that Turbine is 'good,' 'perfect,' 'holy' or whatever paladin is a stand in for.

    Does this frustration of yours actually have a target or is it just a boogieman that you've made up?
    As much I as like the guy, I have to say that LeslieWest_GuitarGod's habit of always looking at things from Turbine's point of view seems a lot like misplaced confidence.

    Sometimes, Leslie, you just have to take a step back and say: "NO! Bad Turbine!" and smack them with a rolled-up newspaper.
    If your "Known Issues" list needs a freaking scroll bar, then one of you needs to go.

  20. #460
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalHazard View Post
    ain't no saints round here.
    As the patron saint of trolling I take offense to that remark.

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