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  1. #421

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uska View Post
    Exactly I am not a member of Tyrs. and have never claimed to be so although I have recommended you guys to people looking for a good guild as you treat all well old hands and newbies as well.
    ... you have a sitting invitation to run with us -- any quest, any difficulty -- any time!

    These guys don't get that the more they cheat, the more they think they try to belittle folks that play the game the way it is supposed to be played, the better it is for guilds like ours to do better in recruitment.

    As for the recommendations, I truly appreciate each time you've done that.


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  2. #422

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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    if EULA isn't enough, common sense should be. obviously exploiters don't use either.
    Clearly.


    TYRS PALADIUM - A Premier Dungeons & Dragons Online Guild
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  3. #423
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    It is the same as working for them, he is just not getting paid for it.

    Anyway, when your Competitor praises you for diminishing your costumer base, that is the time to really re-evaluate your strategy.

    Also, i thought your Guild was no drama, how you maintain membership while drumming up this drama on the forums?
    Ad hominem is a clear indication of lacking refutation of the stance those you disagree with are taking, and every single time you respond to someones post with personal jaunts, you lost.

    Also, while NW does have major problems and needs its own reality check, it took them 2 months, rather than 7 years to realize ignoring exploiters isn't going to work before they got their ban hammers out and starting swinging. They banned a lot more people than Turbine did, and there was a lot less justification on their forums when they did so. No one was parading around talking about how the game is going to die trying to paint the picture that those banned were the biggest spenders. Diminishing our CUSTOMER base? You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  4. #424

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Ad hominem is a clear indication of lacking refutation of the stance those you disagree with are taking, and every single time you respond to someones post with personal jaunts, you lost.

    Also, while NW does have major problems and needs its own reality check, it took them 2 months, rather than 7 years to realize ignoring exploiters isn't going to work before they got their ban hammers out and starting swinging. They banned a lot more people than Turbine did, and there was a lot less justification on their forums when they did so. No one was parading around talking about how the game is going to die trying to paint the picture that those banned were the biggest spenders. Diminishing our CUSTOMER base? You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
    A +1 sir. You are spot on here. Nowadays since much of the launch crowd is finally gone, things are getting much easier to control, and they are building a more solid playerbase. Ban hammers are GOOD for the community, especially for niche games like DDO and NW. Builds integrity and positive PR among the playerbase as a whole faster than any other action I know, besides developing kick ass content.


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  5. #425
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    I do agree with a lot of what you say here.

    Fundamentally, for me, the actual measure of the effectiveness of any disciplinary policy isn't what retribution it has on the people who have already chosen to break the rules. It's the change in behavior that it causes in people who were already unlikely to break the rules even if there were no consequences, but who might be tempted if the perceived reward were great enough. That's the real "target demographic" of penalties associated with rulebreaking. Turbine's disciplinary policy has always been really bad at actually reaching that demographic for a variety of reasons. I don't know if their new policy will have any meaningful effect on that demographic. And I'm not even sure if we can call it a policy since only one exploit has been it with this and we don't know if they're going to bother to keep up the efforts on future exploits.
    So if I understand this, the banning of some players, is not really just to punish those players and if done right would establish a benchmark of fear into other players who may be inspired to use some features™ if there was no consequences for doing so.


    Quote Originally Posted by Fallout_Zero View Post
    Thats a good summary. You get the main points. I talked about group of avid players who spend alot of money and contribute positively to the community. With this no-warning auto-two-week ban, some people got fed up and left. Good riddance some say? It hurts them too. Less revenue for Turibine, less vet players in the game. Thats why I asked, what does this two week auto-ban accomplish? The people who doesn't care about the game, not going to affect them anyway.
    It's a good question. If we were to use Chai little example, Neverwinter did not explode in accounts after they banned people, they did not become a better game, and they did not pull people from DDO because of it, nor was their game suddenly better, notice, Chai is still here playing DDO even after Neverwinter banned people, if it did not pull him away, there is not reason to believe that it would pull anyone else way, I mean, really, Leslie who works for PW/Cryptic still (according to him) pays and supports Turbine games, so the Banning's did not pull his loyalty away either, which is rather ironic. So we see, really, banning people serves no cause, it does not attract people to the game, it does not make the game itself more attractive either, all that happened was they banned some people and those people moved on to other games, to spend their money elsewhere. That is ALL that happened.

    Really, anyone who thought anything other then was going to happen was fooling themselves. I mean, it could be theorized that if the banning's were done on a large enough scale it may cause a ripple effect that could leave the game a ghost town save for some hold outs, but, normally it's game quality of something that does that (hence the Bridge sit-in and such)

    But Banning does not improve a game, it does not attract players, all it does it drive players away. GW2 had banned many exploiters, and they still have a problem with them, but people did not flock to GW2 because they banned exploiters, they went to the game because it was a great game. In the same sense Neverwinter will not drum up sales or player interest by banning, only the quality of the game itself will do that, The same will hold true for DDO and every other MMO out there.

    So what does an additional two week ban accomplish, well it does serve to lessen the amount of customers that may have wanted to return to the game to return to the game, beyond that, nothing.

  6. #426
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    It's a good question. If we were to use Chai little example, Neverwinter did not explode in accounts after they banned people, they did not become a better game, and they did not pull people from DDO because of it, nor was their game suddenly better, notice, Chai is still here playing DDO even after Neverwinter banned people, if it did not pull him away, there is not reason to believe that it would pull anyone else way,
    Now youre confused over something as simple as short term gain over long term gain. It all makes sense now, because youre not looking any further ahead than a month or two. Youre continuing to carry on about "losing customers" when in the long run the game is not losing customers over banning. They lose headcount over the short term but gain customers in the long term due to showing they are willing to protect the integrity of the entity that puts food on their table. .

    Youre also trying to banter that my decision, and all other users decisions, to play NW would be entirely hinged on how they deal with exploiters. If this were the one deciding factor, youre argument would be correct. Since its no where near the one deciding factor, your argument fails. Its not hard to understand how someone can enjoy playing this game over any other, but also see how another game handles one aspect of their management better than DDO does. It doesn't mean their entire game is better than DDO, it means in the long term, less people will exploit their game, because they were willing to do something about it up front.
    Last edited by Chai; 10-26-2013 at 07:15 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  7. #427
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallout_Zero View Post
    Thats a good summary. You get the main points. I talked about group of avid players who spend alot of money and contribute positively to the community. With this no-warning auto-two-week ban, some people got fed up and left. Good riddance some say? It hurts them too. Less revenue for Turibine, less vet players in the game. Thats why I asked, what does this two week auto-ban accomplish? The people who doesn't care about the game, not going to affect them anyway.
    More fear-mongering? It's just as ridiculous today as it was last week.

    DDO isn't going to fail because some cheaters were caught and punished. Turbine did the right thing by punishing the exploiters.

  8. #428
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post

    I'll say it again: When your competitors lackeys praise you for diminishing your customer base, it's time to reassess your tactics.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  9. #429
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Now youre confused over something as simple as short term gain over long term gain. It all makes sense now, because youre not looking any further ahead than a month or two. Youre continuing to carry on about "losing customers" when in the long run the game is not losing customers over banning. They lose headcount over the short term but gain customers in the long term due to showing they are willing to protect the integrity of the entity that puts food on their table.
    In 6 months you would not suddenly leave DDO and play Neverwinter because Turbine did or did not ban people, you would not do it in a year, you would not do it in 10 years. Long or short term, your retention would remain the same. So they did not gain anything, and your poof of it.

    If you left DDO, it would be because you were bored of the game itself, or some mechanic of the game annoyed you, you're only lying to yourself at this point, you know what you are saying is not true, because you are the embodiment of your own rebuttal, you did not leave before when they did not ban people, you would not leave now if they did not ban people, you won;t leave in the future if they don't ban people for the next exploit.

    My feelings have remained the same though all of this. The answer is to have a smooth running game, The game should function as intended, The players should not have to "chose" to play the game as intended.

    On a side note, do you even realize how bad that makes the game look when players have to make a big fuss that they "chose" to not exploit?

  10. #430
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Humm, I wonder, do you really expect us all to believe that only accounts that never spent a single cent on the game got banned?

    Otherwise, yes Chai, they were Customers.

  11. #431
    Community Member HernandoCortez's Avatar
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    Well you guys have been fiercely debating what and who the re-ban hurts.

    I can tell you something different. It DIDN'T hurt the lag monster. Thats for sure.
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  12. #432
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    Looks like it's the guessing game today.

    Lets guess on who would or wouldn't leave because of cheaters. Lets guess on what other people are "really" thinking. Lets guess on other peoples motivations. Lets guess about the future of this game. Lets guess about the histories of game companies who enforce rules vs those who don't.

    I don't want to assume though, so lets give Ungood a chance to validate his predictions and "logic." They could come from work experience/education.

    Do you have a marketing degree Ungood? Do you work in the games industry as a some sort of expert consultant? Run your own company perhaps? Surely all these predictions must come from SOME experience, right?

  13. #433
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeslieWest_GuitarGod View Post
    Anyways -- this isnt about you or me. Back on point, please. Good on Turbine for laying the smackdown. They should have done it earlier, but I'm sure they were planning their strategy.. I certainly like what they are doing now in relation to punishing the bad guys. If they keep it up, more and more of the playerbase will rally behind them. And that, will be very good for business in the long term. They are clearly winning the ideological war at this point in time...
    This is the problem though. We are not allowed to discuss exploits, but let’s play hypothetical.

    Let’s say there at least 3 other “bugs” going on right now that are benefiting players. None of these really go against the bottom line. Turbine may decide that they do not have the money nor man power to alleviate, fix or even punish the players doing them. I can’t say I blame Turbine as I am sure they have to prioritize and can’t keep spending money to execute cheaters or else there would be no money left to run the game.

    All that said, if people see that Turbine is lax about going after cheaters (except when it affects the bottom line), what is to stop them? I know the ramifications and being moral, but if Turbine shows that they are not always going to after cheaters then we will go right back to “cheat early and cheat often”. It is nice that Turbine is on the witch hunt, but unless they are willing to go after every cheater that is cheating (not just the ones duping store items) then people will still cheat knowing that they have a good chance of getting away with it.
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  14. #434
    Community Member Antheal's Avatar
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    Isn't the whole point of this that Turbine were warned in advance that this exploit existed and yet they still pushed it through to live. And then they were YET AGAIN informed that this exploit was live, but they didn't do anything about it as soon as they could have, and should have, done.

    If you tell someone about an exploit and they give a very strong impression that they just don't care, what conclusion can you gain from that?
    If your "Known Issues" list needs a freaking scroll bar, then one of you needs to go.

  15. #435
    Community Member HernandoCortez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antheal View Post
    Isn't the whole point of this that Turbine were warned in advance that this exploit existed and yet they still pushed it through to live. And then they were YET AGAIN informed that this exploit was live, but they didn't do anything about it as soon as they could have, and should have, done.

    If you tell someone about an exploit and they give a very strong impression that they just don't care, what conclusion can you gain from that?
    Worse than that?
    How about people warning them about the exploiters getting their stuff back with the buyback feature?
    How about Turbone banning the exploiters for a second time and turning off buyback for everyone?

    Thats really, really bad.
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  16. #436

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    if Turbine shows that they are not always going to after cheaters then we will go right back to “cheat early and cheat often”.
    They have to continue to come down hard, just like they are doing here. I am hopeful that they will do this again, and again, whenever needed. I am all for Turbine putting their foot down whenever advantageous to the community. Should they have acted earlier, maybe so. Personally I am glad they waited, got the update out, and addressed the fools on their time. You can cheat at every game, be it board games, card games, casino games, or any other mmo. Should the industry stop designing content until all cheaters die off the way of the T Rex? Doesnt work that way (unfortunately)

    They cant get everyone that decides to play the game without morals, and there really is no need to. No matter how strict they get, there will always be morons that will exploit early often cause they want to for fame, in game fortune, or for real life profit. Fighting exploiters is not a 15 round bout, with an established beginning and end. With an open architecture game like DDO which continues to be coded on a daily basis, its normal to have cheaters/exploiters try to find new ways to circumvent or break code. This is a process. And this action convinced me they still are on the ball. They clearly are rounding up as many badies as they want to, and systematically are making adjustments to their accounts.

    That right there will stop the bulk of moonlight cheaters from thinking about it in the near future. As for the "lifers" they will continue until caught, then find another way to cheat again. These are the ones that don't matter because very very few are actually paying for the game. They are leaches... plain and simple. They, nor their opinions hold any value whatsoever to 99+% of the community.

    If you are for stronger punishment, such as character wipes for cheats like this, I'm all for that. That's just me though, I have a no nonsense, 1 strike and you're out policy against those who cheat at games. It's that simple.
    Last edited by LeslieWest_GuitarGod; 10-26-2013 at 09:51 PM.


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  17. #437
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HernandoCortez View Post
    Worse than that?
    How about people warning them about the exploiters getting their stuff back with the buyback feature?
    How about Turbone banning the exploiters for a second time and turning off buyback for everyone?

    Thats really, really bad.
    Well, this topic is done to death at this point really. Not sure what anyone walked away with from this discussion, but I learned that some people need to be kept in the dark for their own good.

    Everything else, really just strikes me as banter, some good, some bad, some just down right annoying.

  18. #438
    Community Member zDragonz's Avatar
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    With all do respect. This exploit was like 9/11 for this game!

    I think the Dev's acted fairly and did a fine job.

    Two more weeks, rewards us who are not exploiters and gives us the satisfaction to feel appreciated. Mabar is the Reward and even though a lot of people in this community has mixed feelings for Mabar. It is a punishment none the less that the exploiters will only have a few days to participate in the event once they are back, if they accept to come back and if they log in after the ban. At least they get a few days. They should be thankful they are not excluded from it entirely. I like Mabar and I approve of the extended bans. Otherwise they would get to run Mabar and gloat about it and I would feel like I am not important for being a Lawful player of the game. It is all about and full of politics. I wish you all well.

  19. #439
    Community Member DirtySheepdip's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=zDragonz;5149409]With all do respect. This exploit was like 9/11 for this game!



    Mabar is the Reward...

    lol, bad reward is bad
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  20. #440
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    Quote Originally Posted by unacceptable View Post
    More fear-mongering? It's just as ridiculous today as it was last week.

    DDO isn't going to fail because some cheaters were caught and punished. Turbine did the right thing by punishing the exploiters.
    Its really easy to say perma-ban often and hard on large number of paying customers when its not your money. Really easy.
    If you start spending thousands of dollars a year. Well you and many many others, then maybe Turbine can afford to lose some paying customers.
    Fix your product and policies first.

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