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  1. #341
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Those 2 are in direct contradiction with one and other. One is attempting to teach not to judge, and the other is a declaraition of judgement.

    Those two quotes do not contradict each other at all. They complement each other completely.

    "Judge not, lest ye be judged" - who is not allowed to judge in this statement?
    "Mene, Mene, Tekel, Upharsin"/"you have been weighed on the scales and found wanting" - who did the judging in this statement?

    I don't think that this is worth a large amount of debate on the DDO forums, but those two statements make a profound connection between the action and the actor.
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  2. #342
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallout_Zero View Post
    I apologize for the first portion mistook for someone else.
    Think I could get one of these? Lol

    Those two quotes do not contradict each other at all. They complement each other completely.

    "Judge not, lest ye be judged" - who is not allowed to judge in this statement?
    "Mene, Mene, Tekel, Upharsin"/"you have been weighed on the scales and found wanting" - who did the judging in this statement?
    Really? You don't see the error here when it's applied to the post by Ungood? It's a pretty obvious one man.

  3. #343
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    Those two quotes do not contradict each other at all. They complement each other completely.

    "Judge not, lest ye be judged" - who is not allowed to judge in this statement?
    "Mene, Mene, Tekel, Upharsin"/"you have been weighed on the scales and found wanting" - who did the judging in this statement?

    I don't think that this is worth a large amount of debate on the DDO forums, but those two statements make a profound connection between the action and the actor.
    Pretty sure that the Judge not comes from a gospel trying to promote forgiveness for others. This would make any twisting of the phrase into promoting judgement a blatant example of a misquote. While the second is an example of impartial cold judgement. Reasonably certain that the intent of both makes them so they should not be applied in the same instance at all. Could be wrong, christian lore is not my strong suit, but that is my understanding.

  4. #344
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by monsoon22 View Post
    Biblical reference is really confusing particularly since, unless I am way off, it is advising that one person should not judge another. How exactly does that fit in with kicking in the teath of the folks at Turbine because they deserve it? Strictly speaking, that means you yourself should be carefull as someone will come along and kick your teeth in and you will deserve it as you are the one judging Turbine so harshly over a pixel crime.

    Without reading every post here, let me add some insight into the exact phrase. And yes, I know this is religious banter, but I just want to set stuff straight. So, if you are offended by religious stuff, stop reading now.

    The phrase itself is not a prohibition against being judgmental, but it merely states that if you are going to apply a set of principles to a person’s behavior, you’d better live by those same principles as well. Just like “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you” which is basically saying the same thing, but in a proactive way, rather than reactive.

    There is also an implication when Jesus thwarted the stoning of a hooker when he said about the person without sin casting the first stone, that some of the people in the crowd ready to stone the hooker were guys who were banging her on a fairly regular basis (and yes, a sin under old Mosaic law).

    Many of these things are misconstrued, and/or taken out of context, some innocently enough, and others with a more agenda-driven intent. If you take something from someone that is not yours, and that you neither earned or paid for, that is theft. Whether it is a penny, or a billion dollars. It is a definable act. WHY you stole, is the part where being judgmental comes in, and an activity that people should be wary to engage in.

    Ok, the part where I will get an obvious tap on the shoulders by the moderators of this forum, is over. Continue on…

  5. #345
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    ~
    Thank you very much for the clarification and taking the time. Did not intend for any truly religious discussion, just trying to understand his post. You explained the quote well, the post still seems like a plate of spaghetti to me though...

  6. #346
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Good luck with that. It isnt a reasonable expectation for them to leave those demands on their boards for any period of time - as they havent in the past. This type of stuff is handled internally, and the knowledge is not made public to customers or any other entity who would demand such. How do we know it hasnt already happened?
    We don't. We don't know anything except their commitment to engage in "extreme prejudice" against the opportunists. No quote about remedying their processes that allowed this to enter the live system and fester, no sorry we really fubarred it this time you guys (see Raider's box), no nothing.

    Why would we ever even remotely expect that commitment to carryover internally when all previous instances have indicated no such accountability exists? There's no previous pattern that implies that would be the case. So while we might charitably muse about how Glin or others are meting out whippings, I'm not a churchgoer and it's not Sunday, so let's leave charity on the wayside.

    All companies handle all things internally when they can. Who really likes to air their dirty laundry in public? It's up to customers, if they're invested enough, to put a company in a box where they can't do that. Already there's been a small break in pattern where they actually had to play against type to stop the problem, so there can be more, it depends what people are willing to demand and how they do so. Obviously the OC bridge brigade hit a real nerve, so the community knows tangentially what range of pain the DDO masters can endure before they are forced to address something. You can overuse something like that, but once the knowledge of the nerve is out there, and people are willing as a community to press on it for important matters, that's a far different balance of power than a community not knowing where one exists at all.

  7. #347
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    Those two quotes do not contradict each other at all. They complement each other completely.

    "Judge not, lest ye be judged" - who is not allowed to judge in this statement?
    "Mene, Mene, Tekel, Upharsin"/"you have been weighed on the scales and found wanting" - who did the judging in this statement?

    I don't think that this is worth a large amount of debate on the DDO forums, but those two statements make a profound connection between the action and the actor.
    Its a direct contradiction to pair those two. Both are biblical references.

    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    "Judge not, lest ye be judged" - who is not allowed to judge in this statement?
    Everyone, and if they do they can expect the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    "Mene, Mene, Tekel, Upharsin"/"you have been weighed on the scales and found wanting" - who did the judging in this statement?
    God, the night Babylon fell.

    One is saying not to judge, and the other is a direct judgement. Citing both together is a direct contradiction. I have seen the second one floating around a few different forums now by those with schadenfreud attitudes about the game in particular, and how its fun to watch the downfall happen from afar now that they are irritated enough to care less about the consequences. They are wearing it on their sleeves like its some kind of honor badge, long after any mature adult would have walked away from the situation. Its kind of cute how they think they are rebels somehow making a difference against Turbines suppsed tyrany, but the minute you throw a RL analogy out there they will mock you for comparing a game to RL, another direct contradiction.

  8. #348
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by monsoon22 View Post
    Thank you very much for the clarification and taking the time. Did not intend for any truly religious discussion, just trying to understand his post. You explained the quote well, the post still seems like a plate of spaghetti to me though...
    I guess my issue is the concept that some people think the punishment is overly harsh.

    Having people storm into the homes of the dupers, and cutting off their fingers is clearly, overly harsh.

    Giving them an extended time-out for trying to be smarter than the average bear in a really snotty way…not so overly harsh.

    A lot of it has to do with your perspective.

    It’s a game. If they are so hard-up for entertainment, have them buy a couple decks of cards and play Kanasta…

  9. #349
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    Care to provide those 'facts'? Let's see your bug report w/number....

    There is one glaring loophole in your claim of 'fact'. If it was reported and it was going on on Llama, why did those that were doing it on Llama wait so long to start duping? Why did they wait until 3 weeks ago to start and have it explode as it did from one server out to the rest?

    With the amount of 'fun' people were having you would think they would start right away instead of waiting on such information for so long.

    You really think those that took part in this were sitting on it for so long, not telling anyone, and not using it right away on the ASAH?

    Human nature such as it is, most people can see how absurd that is considering the gravity of the actions in question.
    I said it was during a past exploit. I will not go into what one but it had to do with shears. Not sure if those threads are still around but there were screen shots of tickets placed on lama.
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  10. #350
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by myliftkk_v2 View Post
    We don't. We don't know anything except their commitment to engage in "extreme prejudice" against the opportunists. No quote about remedying their processes that allowed this to enter the live system and fester, no sorry we really fubarred it this time you guys (see Raider's box), no nothing.

    Why would we ever even remotely expect that commitment to carryover internally when all previous instances have indicated no such accountability exists? There's no previous pattern that implies that would be the case. So while we might charitably muse about how Glin or others are meting out whippings, I'm not a churchgoer and it's not Sunday, so let's leave charity on the wayside.
    How do we know no such accountability exists? How many employees have left and been hired on to Turbine since the forumites started talking about lack of accountability?

    Quote Originally Posted by myliftkk_v2 View Post
    All companies handle all things internally when they can. Who really likes to air their dirty laundry in public? It's up to customers, if they're invested enough, to put a company in a box where they can't do that. Already there's been a small break in pattern where they actually had to play against type to stop the problem, so there can be more, it depends what people are willing to demand and how they do so. Obviously the OC bridge brigade hit a real nerve, so the community knows tangentially what range of pain the DDO masters can endure before they are forced to address something. You can overuse something like that, but once the knowledge of the nerve is out there, and people are willing as a community to press on it for important matters, that's a far different balance of power than a community not knowing where one exists at all.
    Without generating massive publicity to the point where its beyond the realm of political correctness, it wont happen. Thats why I said before "good luck with that". When you start talking about public education institutions its a different matter entirely, and the entire local community as well as others from afar with social media etc...will put pressure on specific people who were in charge when something terrible happened in real life. At the level this would need to get for Turbine to respond publicly with specifc actions they took, the minute it hits the main stream media it will get mocked as gamer drama. Putting that kind of pressure on them is not realistic. The one kind of pressure that can be put on them, people leaving when they are irritated with the state of things, doesnt even happen anywhere near the level it has been threatened to happen over the years, because MMOs are addicting, which is why the people threatening to leave are upset in the first place, but dont leave in droves.

  11. #351
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrakHar View Post
    This is sig worthy. They don't fit together at all.

    Also, that isn't coining a phrase, it's quoting one. Unless you're claiming to be Jesus.
    But my gardener doesn't judge anyone.

  12. #352
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    If you take something from someone that is not yours, and that you neither earned or paid for, that is theft. Whether it is a penny, or a billion dollars. It is a definable act. WHY you stole, is the part where being judgmental comes in, and an activity that people should be wary to engage in.
    Theft, defined legally, has a much more nuanced definition than what you're suggesting. Not that I care to go down that legal rabbit hole, but over-simplifying complex legal topics like theft, and ownership of property, etc, doesn't help.

    This piece by an artist I like quite a bit says all I want to say about property:


  13. #353
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Its a direct contradiction to pair those two. Both are biblical references.



    Everyone, and if they do they can expect the same.



    God, the night Babylon fell.

    One is saying not to judge, and the other is a direct judgement. Citing both together is a direct contradiction. I have seen the second one floating around a few different forums now by those with schadenfreud attitudes about the game in particular, and how its fun to watch the downfall happen from afar now that they are irritated enough to care less about the consequences. They are wearing it on their sleeves like its some kind of honor badge, long after any mature adult would have walked away from the situation. Its kind of cute how they think they are rebels somehow making a difference against Turbines suppsed tyrany, but the minute you throw a RL analogy out there they will mock you for comparing a game to RL, another direct contradiction.
    I do believe that the way you are reading Ungood's post is using those phrases incorrectly, but they certainly do not contradict each other. You are correct that they both come from the Bible, but the whole point of the first statement is that everyone cannot judge each other. We are directly requested and required to not judge our neighbors and to look to the beam in our own eyes before pointing out the splinters in the eyes of our neighbors.

    "Judge not lest ye be judged" - we are not supposed to be judging each other.
    "you have been weighed on the scales and found wanting"- the LORD is the one who judges, not us.

    I'm not going to make any call on whether the Bible is correct in that assertion, but it seems pretty clear to me that those two statements do not conflict with each other. Each one is a statement on who may and who may not judge. Those two statements both say that judgement is the domain of the LORD and not the domain of man. As for me, I'm much more interested in just getting things fixed than I am in judging who is to blame for something being broken.

    Edit: slight rephrasing.
    Last edited by HungarianRhapsody; 10-25-2013 at 04:00 PM.
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  14. #354
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    Those two quotes do not contradict each other at all. They complement each other completely.

    "Judge not, lest ye be judged" - who is not allowed to judge in this statement?
    "Mene, Mene, Tekel, Upharsin"/"you have been weighed on the scales and found wanting" - who did the judging in this statement?

    I don't think that this is worth a large amount of debate on the DDO forums, but those two statements make a profound connection between the action and the actor.
    I am truly impressed by you.

    I mean that in the most sincere way that I could say someone impressed me.

    You know, in the 2 decades that I have dropped that quote on various forums in one phrasing or another, you are the first person to understand what it really means.

    I forget if we are on the same side of this discussion, if we aren't, I am willing to listen to your side of things, now more then ever.

  15. #355
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    I am truly impressed by you.

    I mean that in the most sincere way that I could say someone impressed me.

    You know, in the 2 decades that I have dropped that quote on various forums in one phrasing or another, you are the first person to understand what it really means.

    I forget if we are on the same side of this discussion, if we aren't, I am willing to listen to your side of things, now more then ever.
    You serious?

    One have you even read the post right above your own where he states clearly he believes you messed it up?

    Two, you are saying that everyone else is unworthy of being listened to because they cannot understand an improperly used set of quotes? THAT is your criteria for the validity or lack thereof of their statements?

    For real??? And in the 2 decades you have been using confusing quotes, no one has bothered to point it out or you have simply discounted them I take it. Amazing.
    Last edited by monsoon22; 10-25-2013 at 04:09 PM.

  16. #356
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    "judge not the nerd that cheats, lest another nerd judge you in turn"
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  17. #357
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by monsoon22 View Post
    You serious?

    One have you even read the post right above your own where he states clearly he believes you messed it up?

    Two, you are saying that everyone else is unworthy of bing listened too because they cannot understand an improperly used set of quotes? THAT is your criteria for the validity or lack thereof of their statements?

    For real???
    I began the post right above Ungood's post right above yours with some poor phrasing. The way that Chai is reading Ungood's post is clearly an incorrect interpretation of those two statements. I do think that Ungood was trying to say something similar to what I was saying there. I can't know what is in Ungood's mind, but I do think that was what he was aiming at. I actually did edit that post a bit to clarify since the beginning of what I said was definitely phrased poorly.
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  18. #358
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    How do we know no such accountability exists? How many employees have left and been hired on to Turbine since the forumites started talking about lack of accountability?



    Without generating massive publicity to the point where its beyond the realm of political correctness, it wont happen. Thats why I said before "good luck with that". When you start talking about public education institutions its a different matter entirely, and the entire local community as well as others from afar with social media etc...will put pressure on specific people who were in charge when something terrible happened in real life. At the level this would need to get for Turbine to respond publicly with specifc actions they took, the minute it hits the main stream media it will get mocked as gamer drama. Putting that kind of pressure on them is not realistic. The one kind of pressure that can be put on them, people leaving when they are irritated with the state of things, doesnt even happen anywhere near the level it has been threatened to happen over the years, because MMOs are addicting, which is why the people threatening to leave are upset in the first place, but dont leave in droves.
    Did you conduct their exit interviews? If so many people left, because we don't have their HR file, and things didn't get better, then what's the odds that it was the unneeded people who left? You realize a lot of people leave places because they find better jobs, not because they get pushed out, or the third side of that coin, those that get pushed out, aren't always the ones who deserve to be. I wager I've been through far more vast orginazational re-orgs than Turbine. More often than not, the well-connected stay, the tenuously connected lose. Little of it has to do with talent or skill quite frankly. Surviving tumultous downsizing is based on office political skills most of all.

    You forget Microsoft's new Xbox debacle (not that I even cared about it)? Media is everywhere now, it doesn't really matter what people who aren't interested in gaming think, it just matters how it looks to the remarkedly small niche which is DDO players, or potential ones, who are in fact probably more digitally connected than most. Sure, I don't pay attention to a lot of protests, but then again, many of them work.

    The only difference in public educational institutions to a private company's customer service issue is the total scale. Everything is bigger, but the ratio that is important to success is still the same. If enough customers can coordinate their response, which ever improving digital tools continually empower, then companies can be held to a higher level of account. To argue that power isn't shifting in small pieces every day to customers versus residing with "the company" is to stick your head in the digital sand. It's not 2010, 2006, 2001, or 1996, and your cynicism is blinding you to the fact that time and tools have changed. Sure, the base instincts to cover up, skirt responsibility, obfuscate, etc will always be with companies because they are in the end, run by humans, but the tools and avenues to hold them to account have most certainly changed.

  19. #359
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by monsoon22 View Post
    Two, you are saying that everyone else is unworthy of being listened to because they cannot understand an improperly used set of quotes? THAT is your criteria for the validity or lack thereof of their statements?
    Not at all.

    For real??? And in the 2 decades you have been using confusing quotes, no one has bothered to point it out or you have simply discounted them I take it. Amazing.
    Some I have taken the time to enlighten, because others had taken the time to enlighten me. That is why we talk to start with others to start with.

    Are your questions done, or do you feel the need to rage a bit more at me? If you need to vent further do so, because trust me, I can take it.

  20. #360
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    I began the post right above Ungood's post right above yours with some poor phrasing. The way that Chai is reading Ungood's post is clearly an incorrect interpretation of those two statements. I do think that Ungood was trying to say something similar to what I was saying there. I can't know what is in Ungood's mind, but I do think that was what he was aiming at. I actually did edit that post a bit to clarify since the beginning of what I said was definitely phrased poorly.
    Oh, I understand what you are both saying, but in full context of Turbine getting what they deserve in a bar none of it makes any sense at all near as I can decode anyway. Near as I can figure he is the judge and deciding that Turbine is unworthy of getting the boots taken to them and the dupers are innocent, but that still does not tie in how it is not his place to judge but the big guys unless he is entirely without blame. Can't be that as he was one of the ones accusing others of being a white knight ignoring their own sinfull actions and that would totally invalidate him being able to judge Turbine.

    All that looks like gibberish to me and I am the one that wrote it. But is the only way I can get it to even come close to a counter argument to anything that the "white Knights" have said.

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