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  1. #41
    Community Member Deathdefy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnhelm View Post
    Ok, explain to me how duping and "helpful" members of the DDO community is not oxymoron?
    I'm going to guide you through this because my entire objection is how lazy this 'dupers are evil' thought is:

    How, ordinarily, is someone helpful in DDO?

    Do they put up pugs?

    Do they help new players?

    Do they teach raids?

    Do they recruit to guilds, join other people's pugs and generally participate in the community?

    Do they spend money in the store to keep the company going?

    ...

    Now, if this same person duped some large greensteel ingredients for personal use, are they then an evil duper who has made a net negative contribution to DDO?




    Obviously that's a single example, and someone who only solos, never buys any points, and duped a million true globes and sold them on the ASAH is another side of it.



    I'm going to ask a question now, and I'm going to try and make it as neutral as possible.

    Can you now see how defining someone as good or bad for DDO by the sole metric of 'whether they duped or not' is a poor test?
    Khyber: Aggrim (Completionist!)
    In Von 3 the breakables in the Troll Ambassador optional room are slow to get to and unnecessary for ransack.
    Blind insta-kills floating eye balls.

  2. #42
    Community Member Arnhelm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathdefy View Post
    ...Now, if this same person duped some large greensteel ingredients for personal use, are they then an evil duper who has made a net negative contribution to DDO?

    ...

    Can you now see how defining someone as good or bad for DDO by the sole metric of 'whether they duped or not' is a poor test?
    Yes, and nope, can't see it. If you're going to cheat at this game, you are being detrimental to the overall community.

    It's like asking if someone who loves their wife, treats their kids well, supports their local schools, and robs banks is bad for a community.
    Once upon a time, I was part of a team, and we saved some children. What have you done with your life?

  3. #43
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HernandoCortez View Post
    Nostradamus! Those who live, shall see!
    Trollstradumbass - has a nice ring to it.

  4. #44
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnhelm View Post
    Ok, explain to me how duping and "helpful" members of the DDO community is not oxymoron?
    Explain to me, how someone copying his ingredients suddenly is no longer possible to:
    • Post LFMs teaching people how to run quests/raids.
    • Post guides/builds etc.
    • Be nice to people (no swearing, not raging over mistakes etc).
    • Give people advice on skill, tactics, builds, gear, spells, mobs etc.


    If you think that everyone who duped was an evil kitten and children eating rude elitist jerk raging over everything, swearing, insulting or whatever, and/or everyone who didn't duped is ever nice, ever helpul, never raging over everything, swearing, insulting or whatever, please put on intelligence (and possibly wisdom) boosting item on.
    Quote Originally Posted by Originally Posted by Random Person #2 View Post
    People who exploit bugs in code are cheaters cheaters cheaters. And they are big fat ****yheads too.

  5. #45
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kned225 View Post
    You shouldn't hand these gems out for free in other peoples threads
    the best trolls are the self-sustaining trolls. plant the seeds, watching it grow, do some work in the office and check on the thread an hour later.

    It's like zen.

  6. #46
    Community Member gordgray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallout_Zero View Post
    Who loses in the end? Turbine and existing players.

    Banned players are doing something else, and might not comeback. Talking about long time players.
    If people I know are not coming back looks like almost time to call it quits too.
    A lot of people talk to feel the same way.

    On the bright side for the people cheering for permanent bans might get what they want. People not coming back. And maybe all like minded people can play on same sever as they do server merges.

    DDO had a good run.
    We the players who did not dupe lost also buying items from the dupers who started this cr@p I for one hope that thy do leave.
    The Rogues Guild - Sarlona
    How did that get in here? Hay give that back O that’s yours? Sorry
    Gordgray Gord of gray Hawk Rogues do it from behind

  7. #47
    Community Member Deathdefy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnhelm View Post
    Yes, and nope, can't see it. If you're going to cheat at this game, you are being detrimental to the overall community.

    It's like asking if someone who loves their wife, treats their kids well, supports their local schools, and robs banks is bad for a community.
    So the 'good guy' in my example, who has done lots of positive things for ddo: if the only duping he did was a single large devil scale.

    That's literally it; 1 single scale.

    He's still detrimental overall for ddo?
    Khyber: Aggrim (Completionist!)
    In Von 3 the breakables in the Troll Ambassador optional room are slow to get to and unnecessary for ransack.
    Blind insta-kills floating eye balls.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathdefy View Post
    I'm going to guide you through this because my entire objection is how lazy this 'dupers are evil' thought is:

    How, ordinarily, is someone helpful in DDO?

    Do they put up pugs?

    Do they help new players?

    Do they teach raids?

    Do they recruit to guilds, join other people's pugs and generally participate in the community?

    Do they spend money in the store to keep the company going?

    ...

    Now, if this same person duped some large greensteel ingredients for personal use, are they then an evil duper who has made a net negative contribution to DDO?




    Obviously that's a single example, and someone who only solos, never buys any points, and duped a million true globes and sold them on the ASAH is another side of it.



    I'm going to ask a question now, and I'm going to try and make it as neutral as possible.

    Can you now see how defining someone as good or bad for DDO by the sole metric of 'whether they duped or not' is a poor test?
    You are absolutely correct in the argument that not all dupers are as negative for the game as other, however, they are all guilty of duping. The game will be worse off in the long run if some of the "good" dupers leave, but whether they only duped for their own benefit, helped guildies, gave away free stuff in the harbor, or sold 100 stacks of larges by the dozens on the ASAH for real cash, they all should serve the same penalty. Turbine has stated that they are only going after the worst of the worst, so obviously if some of the "good" dupers are hit by the ban bat they must have been pretty active and duped far more then any one person could ever consume on their own. I am sad to see good people go, but I don't feel sorry for anyone that was caught and is now being punished.

  9. #49
    Community Member Arnhelm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathdefy View Post
    So the 'good guy' in my example, who has done lots of positive things for ddo: if the only duping he did was a single large devil scale.

    That's literally it; 1 single scale.

    He's still detrimental overall for ddo?
    Well, gosh, in my example the guy only robs banks to support his wife, kids, and the local schools. He can't really be a bad guy, can he?
    Once upon a time, I was part of a team, and we saved some children. What have you done with your life?

  10. #50
    Community Member Deathdefy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DakDeFrosted View Post
    You are absolutely correct in the argument that not all dupers are as negative for the game as other, however, they are all guilty of duping. The game will be worse off in the long run if some of the "good" dupers leave, but whether they only duped for their own benefit, helped guildies, gave away free stuff in the harbor, or sold 100 stacks of larges by the dozens on the ASAH for real cash, they all should serve the same penalty. Turbine has stated that they are only going after the worst of the worst, so obviously if some of the "good" dupers are hit by the ban bat they must have been pretty active and duped far more then any one person could ever consume on their own. I am sad to see good people go, but I don't feel sorry for anyone that was caught and is now being punished.
    That's totally reasonable. Agreed that tailoring specific punishments to every individual is near-impossible and a blanket approach is the only feasible thing.

    No objection from me to the 2 week ban since they knew what they were doing when they rolled the dice (though I think the second 2 week ban after being told they were only getting 2 weeks is a bit off).

    I am mostly frustrated by the stupidity of throwing absolutes around when discussing a very broad cross-section of players, some of whom I miss in-game, and would be a real loss to ddo if they left.
    Khyber: Aggrim (Completionist!)
    In Von 3 the breakables in the Troll Ambassador optional room are slow to get to and unnecessary for ransack.
    Blind insta-kills floating eye balls.

  11. #51
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallout_Zero View Post
    The old time players spent a lot of money. Most new players are F2P and spend a bit here and there to buy quests. Losing long time vet and paying customers is good for DDO? Economics.
    People who went hog-wild duping weren't spending much money any more... Those were the people who boasted here all the time how Turbine sucks, and they're weren't giving them one more cent (but they still played hours every day). I bought some more Astral Shards last night, now that I know Turbine is serious about banning cheaters. So they got MORE money from me for being tough.

    If there's another bug like this in the future, guess what, people are still going to use it.
    No, they won't... Turbine is doing it right... You are actually feeling consequences... You guys have gone from laughing it off to desperately trying to get people on your side, to convince Turbine to let you play again.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by TedSandyman View Post
    Some people brag about how fast they finished the game. I cant think of a stupider thing to brag about. Or in this game, going from level 1 to level 30 in two days, or however long it takes. I can't even begin to imagine what drives a person to think that is fun. You are ignoring all of the content and options and going for sheer speed. It is like going to a museum and bragging about how fast you made it through. Or bragging about how fast you finished a good steak.

  12. #52
    Community Member PNellesen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    it hurts me the most.

    Nobody will hjeal meh.
    Come to Orien - my clerics will hjealu.

    But only if you stand next to them...
    Last edited by PNellesen; 10-24-2013 at 11:51 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ertay View Post
    While they were at it though, the devs decided to go on an incredible nerfhammer rampage and left nothing in their wake standing...

  13. #53
    Community Member Deathdefy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnhelm View Post
    Well, gosh, in my example the guy only robs banks to support his wife, kids, and the local schools. He can't really be a bad guy, can he?
    I don't know if you're agreeing with me or not.

    Real life crime examples on these forums usually end up in bad places in my experience.

    Briefly though, 'yes, he's probably a bad guy'. EDIT: I genuinely don't understand the point of the analogy. Is it that duping literally anything is so catastrophic as to create the same devastation to lives as robbing a bank? If so, that's beyond stupid and deep into the 'bad places real life crime analogies on these forums get us to'.

    I think you're agreeing there are shades of grey and maybe ddo wouldn't be better off if all players who duped anything were permabanned though so I'm going to bed as it's late whether my assumption of agreement is right or wrong.
    Last edited by Deathdefy; 10-24-2013 at 11:54 AM.
    Khyber: Aggrim (Completionist!)
    In Von 3 the breakables in the Troll Ambassador optional room are slow to get to and unnecessary for ransack.
    Blind insta-kills floating eye balls.

  14. #54
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by djl View Post
    All you people who believe this amuse me. For every cheater that got banned, there were two cheaters who didn't. The next major exploit that comes along, there will be a large amount of people who partake in it as well. DDO has a well-documented history of exploits, and there is a reason why everybody says "Exploit Early and Often."
    1 in 3 chance of getting punished will deter a lot of people...

    What do you suggest? That they do nothing? I've always said they don't need to catch everyone... Catch a few, delete all their stuff, PUBLICIZE it so people know the possible consequences, and that will deter the 99% of us who don't really want to cheat anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by TedSandyman View Post
    Some people brag about how fast they finished the game. I cant think of a stupider thing to brag about. Or in this game, going from level 1 to level 30 in two days, or however long it takes. I can't even begin to imagine what drives a person to think that is fun. You are ignoring all of the content and options and going for sheer speed. It is like going to a museum and bragging about how fast you made it through. Or bragging about how fast you finished a good steak.

  15. #55
    Community Member kned225's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gordgray View Post
    We the players who did not dupe lost also buying items from the dupers who started this cr@p I for one hope that thy do leave.
    I think there are too many high horses and too much morality on both sides of it

    Dupers duped and turbine reacted. If you're a duper and got punished, its your move. Quit or dont. The non-dupers have said, go ahead....quit, they dont care

    So why are dupers so concerned that they're going to leave all their detractors in an "empty game"? And if they're just blowing hot air and arent really quitting, why come to the forums and cry when its obvious its not gonna change anything or win them any sympathy.

  16. #56
    Community Member Limey's Avatar
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    "That's literally it; 1 single scale"

    Well how foolish to risk being banned for such little reward. Maybe quicker to run the shroud than wait weeks for ban to run out.

  17. #57
    Community Member djl's Avatar
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    I like how all the apologists are saying "Ur just mad cuz u dont get free tomes"

    Most of us already had all the +5 tomes we needed on our toons, since you know... we were actually capable of running EE quests, unlike the majority of the apologists?

    Also, one of the people who got banned who was a close friend of mine was also one of maybe six people who EVER pugged Epic Elite quests (not counting Tagyis' daily Tor LFMS) on our server. He pugged out EEs and completed them, without any issues. He was more than willing to carry subpar players through EEs simply because it's a MMO and grouping is more fun than soloing. But sure, go ahead and say the game is better off without people like him. Enjoy mediocrity as you run Epic Hard quests ad nauseum.

    So many of you people think in terms of absolutes, and it's sickening. OHHHhh they cheated, they are the scum of this game, BAN THEM ALL!!!! Several of these people did more for their servers' communities over the course of the years they have played than you could ever hope to do. But they're EVIL CHEATERS who POISON their communities! Few things are that black and white. Yes, they cheated and yes they deserve to be punished. But the degree that many of you sycophants are trying to vilify them is wholly unnecessary.
    Last edited by djl; 10-24-2013 at 12:01 PM.

  18. #58
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallout_Zero View Post
    What I fear the most is the old timers who I play with decide not to come back since doing something else. Sure I play now with pugs etc but it's not the same. If they don't come back less incentive for me and many others to continue to play.
    Unfortunately thats what happens when people break the rules knowingly. It affects others who play the game. Thats reason for keeping them away from the game in the first place once caught.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fallout_Zero View Post
    There are a huge amount of dupers who didn't get banned.
    Yet.

  19. #59
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    If they hadn't exploited in the first place, nobody would be hurt. That's why I'm glad Turbine did something about exploiters this time. Maybe next time they won't do it and everyone won't get affected by it. Usually it takes 2 swift hands to create enough impact on the players to keep exploits to themselves or just not do it all. I'm hoping Turbine comes down hard again when the next one starts.

  20. #60
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by djl View Post
    I like how all the apologists are saying "Ur just mad cuz u dont get free tomes"

    Most of us already had all the +5 tomes we needed on our toons, since you know... we were actually capable of running EE quests, unlike the majority of the apologists?

    Also, one of the people who got banned who was a close friend of mine was also one of maybe six people who EVER pugged Epic Elite quests (not counting Tagyis' daily Tor LFMS) on our server. He pugged out EEs and completed them, without any issues. He was more than willing to carry subpar players through EEs simply because it's a MMO and grouping is more fun than soloing. But sure, go ahead and say the game is better off without people like him. Enjoy mediocrity as you run Epic Hard quests ad nauseum.
    See how its affecting you right now that hes gone. Had he not broken the rules, he wouldnt be gone.

    Skill level has nothing to do with willingness to break the rules one agreed to before playing. Those two things have absolutely no correlation whatsoever.

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