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  1. #1
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    Default If the popular theory is that players spend more money on the game when they TR...

    Then ask Turbine to give out free BTA reincarnation hearts every time a player has spent 1495 TP on anything else in the game. Cosmetics, xp pots, pets, otto boxes, monster manuals, bags, adventure packs. Doesn't matter. Consider VIP players as transacting some equitable TP value for the $10 or whatever they spend each month using some middle exchange rate, maybe $10 = 1200 TP or maybe just say VIP subscription is equivalent to one heart per month. The point is that players paying into the game TR for free, since right now players who TR are already paying into the game in other ways.

    End result:

    • "Grind" for hearts - eliminated, period.
    • Tension over where tokens drop or don't drop - eliminated.
    • Tension over whether tokens are BTC or BTA - eliminated.
    • Tension about having to farm tokens on your least farm-worthy characters - eliminated.
    • Tension about having to farm tokens in higher level epics when you just want to TR at level 20 - eliminated.
    • Concerns about being forced to pay for the cost of a heart when you're already buying pots, pets, bags and boxes or whatever else you spend money on during each TR - eliminated.


    The theory is that Turbine will make more revenue when players are delighted by TR'ing as rapidly and grind free as possible. Let's put it to the test.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by hit_fido View Post
    Then ask Turbine to give out free BTA reincarnation hearts every time a player has spent 1495 TP on anything else in the game. Cosmetics, xp pots, pets, otto boxes, monster manuals, bags, adventure packs. Doesn't matter. Consider VIP players as transacting some equitable TP value for the $10 or whatever they spend each month using some middle exchange rate, maybe $10 = 1200 TP or maybe just say VIP subscription is equivalent to one heart per month. The point is that players paying into the game TR for free, since right now players who TR are already paying into the game in other ways.

    End result:

    • "Grind" for hearts - eliminated, period.
    • Tension over where tokens drop or don't drop - eliminated.
    • Tension over whether tokens are BTC or BTA - eliminated.
    • Tension about having to farm tokens on your least farm-worthy characters - eliminated.
    • Tension about having to farm tokens in higher level epics when you just want to TR at level 20 - eliminated.
    • Concerns about being forced to pay for the cost of a heart when you're already buying pots, pets, bags and boxes or whatever else you spend money on during each TR - eliminated.


    The theory is that Turbine will make more revenue when players are delighted by TR'ing as rapidly and grind free as possible. Let's put it to the test.
    I think there's a HUGE way for Turbine to get rid of the complaints AND make more money in the store...your one TR per month thought put me on to that track:

    1) Extend the TR-timer to a much longer number. Rather than 1 week make it somewhere between 1 month and 3 months (I'd err on the short side but the rest of my suggestion will make it clear why it doesn't matter much).
    2) Make all TR's (heroic, iconic, epic) free to all players.
    3) Add TR-timer bypasses in place of the heroic hearts everywhere they're available in the game.
    4) Grant VIP's a single TR-timer bypass with their monthly points each month.

    So end result - everyone can TR toons for free.

    If I have a toon that's been sitting stagnant and I want to get back to playing the game on it? Go right ahead! A toon sitting stagnant in an unusable build makes Turbine $0. If I'm playing it they have a chance to make money.

    People that play casually (again, the 1 month, 3 month, whatever month TR timer is up to the beancounters) and TR less than the bypass...again, free. Those people aren't the ones spending on hearts and they're likely to have trouble participating in saga's, epic farming, everything getting hearts. For them, hearts = the old leveling sigils and they just get frustrated and leave.

    The heavier players will have to do the new sagas, the old tokens (while still available), etc. to earn their bypasses, buy bypasses from the store at the current heart costs, or else wait on that character to pass up their TR timer. VIP's though will be able to TR at least once a month. If they time it right (ie wait for the existing timer to run out), TR, and then TR again using their heart from that month then they could do it twice in a month. Even better, VIP's would be able to save up their bypasses - meaning that there's a reason to stay VIP even when you're not playing heavily - you can save up those TR bypasses for a time when you are.
    Tajawuka 9 monk/8 ranger/3 arti AA (3 ranger/monk/fighter pl's) - Toolbots working on Morninglord Cleric life #2 (3 wizard/sorc/druid pl) - Evisra 28 rogue

  3. #3
    Community Member relenttless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hit_fido View Post
    Then ask Turbine to give out free BTA reincarnation hearts every time a player has spent 1495 TP on anything else in the game. Cosmetics, xp pots, pets, otto boxes, monster manuals, bags, adventure packs. Doesn't matter. Consider VIP players as transacting some equitable TP value for the $10 or whatever they spend each month using some middle exchange rate, maybe $10 = 1200 TP or maybe just say VIP subscription is equivalent to one heart per month. The point is that players paying into the game TR for free, since right now players who TR are already paying into the game in other ways.

    End result:

    • "Grind" for hearts - eliminated, period.
    • Tension over where tokens drop or don't drop - eliminated.
    • Tension over whether tokens are BTC or BTA - eliminated.
    • Tension about having to farm tokens on your least farm-worthy characters - eliminated.
    • Tension about having to farm tokens in higher level epics when you just want to TR at level 20 - eliminated.
    • Concerns about being forced to pay for the cost of a heart when you're already buying pots, pets, bags and boxes or whatever else you spend money on during each TR - eliminated.


    The theory is that Turbine will make more revenue when players are delighted by TR'ing as rapidly and grind free as possible. Let's put it to the test.
    +1..even though you ninja'd me.... I was thinking along similar though not as succinct lines only last night while laying in the tub.

    Why do toons need ANYTHING to TR? ..Just give VIPs a free Heart once a month....premium one every 2....something like that...There are so many simpler, equitable, more elegant solutions to the "tr question" than the dog's dinner currently on the table.
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by hit_fido View Post
    The point is that players paying into the game TR for free, since right now players who TR are already paying into the game in other ways.
    Setting aside for the moment the specific suggestions, this is the point that I think many are trying to point out to Turbine. There is a popular theory about why you see free peanuts at bars, because it gets people to drink more. There are other theories about those salty snacks, some less savory, but the basic theory applies here. If you give people something for free or at least relatively free that encourages them to buy something else, that can be a net win. If you start charging for that item people might stop buying other items, which can be a net loss.

    Turbine hopefully has good data and number crunchers correlating free heart usage with things like Otto's boxes, XP Pots, etc. So perhaps they can estimate the lost revenue from those items if people stop TRing as often (because no one should expect people to maintain game-play habits from a low gate to high gate system). A lot of people just think that raising this gate to TRing will hurt Turbine, both in sales of other items, and in retention of customers.

    Similarly, people are not favorable of using the saga system specifically for what appears to be boosting sales of specific content. I think I spent $80 on Motu, I have yet to get Shadowfell. It had everything to do with what the two offered in terms of quests, gameplay overhauls, and my impression of the general direction of the game. When MOTU was coming out I felt this game had challenges ahead, but at least was introducing exciting new things. Now, they add on a few levels with no substantial improvements, face a pratically barren raiding landscape, and face serious power creep issues. And when that doesn't motivate people to buy in, the redesign is to contemplate taking away a bread and butter playstyle for a lot of people.
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  5. #5
    Community Member Zibowskij's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkrok View Post
    I think there's a HUGE way for Turbine to get rid of the complaints AND make more money in the store...your one TR per month thought put me on to that track:

    1) Extend the TR-timer to a much longer number. Rather than 1 week make it somewhere between 1 month and 3 months (I'd err on the short side but the rest of my suggestion will make it clear why it doesn't matter much).
    2) Make all TR's (heroic, iconic, epic) free to all players.
    3) Add TR-timer bypasses in place of the heroic hearts everywhere they're available in the game.
    4) Grant VIP's a single TR-timer bypass with their monthly points each month.

    So end result - everyone can TR toons for free.

    If I have a toon that's been sitting stagnant and I want to get back to playing the game on it? Go right ahead! A toon sitting stagnant in an unusable build makes Turbine $0. If I'm playing it they have a chance to make money.

    People that play casually (again, the 1 month, 3 month, whatever month TR timer is up to the beancounters) and TR less than the bypass...again, free. Those people aren't the ones spending on hearts and they're likely to have trouble participating in saga's, epic farming, everything getting hearts. For them, hearts = the old leveling sigils and they just get frustrated and leave.

    The heavier players will have to do the new sagas, the old tokens (while still available), etc. to earn their bypasses, buy bypasses from the store at the current heart costs, or else wait on that character to pass up their TR timer. VIP's though will be able to TR at least once a month. If they time it right (ie wait for the existing timer to run out), TR, and then TR again using their heart from that month then they could do it twice in a month. Even better, VIP's would be able to save up their bypasses - meaning that there's a reason to stay VIP even when you're not playing heavily - you can save up those TR bypasses for a time when you are.
    I have an even better idea! let's make all the items in the store free, but the game will become subscription only for just 500$ a month!

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zibowskij View Post
    I have an even better idea! let's make all the items in the store free, but the game will become subscription only for just 500$ a month!
    Arguing against making Heroic True Hearts easier to obtain is like arguing that Turbine should never have removed leveling sigils. I'll have to assume by your join date that you weren't around for the stupidity of leveling sigils but suffice it to say that their removal vastly improved both the players' enjoyment of the game and Turbine's bottom line. They certainly didn't have to raise subscription rates when they removed leveling sigils and arguing that they would in the case of Heroic True Hearts is simply throwing out a strawman rather than arguing on the merits.
    Tajawuka 9 monk/8 ranger/3 arti AA (3 ranger/monk/fighter pl's) - Toolbots working on Morninglord Cleric life #2 (3 wizard/sorc/druid pl) - Evisra 28 rogue

  7. #7

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    This is brilliant. /signed.

    It would be nice if Turbine was willing to get creative and innovate like this.

  8. #8
    Community Member Zibowskij's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkrok View Post
    Arguing against making Heroic True Hearts easier to obtain is like arguing that Turbine should never have removed leveling sigils. I'll have to assume by your join date that you weren't around for the stupidity of leveling sigils but suffice it to say that their removal vastly improved both the players' enjoyment of the game and Turbine's bottom line. They certainly didn't have to raise subscription rates when they removed leveling sigils and arguing that they would in the case of Heroic True Hearts is simply throwing out a strawman rather than arguing on the merits.
    And I assume by your reply that you failed a sarcasm check XD

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zibowskij View Post
    And I assume by your reply that you failed a sarcasm check XD
    No, I passed the sarcasm check...I just assumed you were using sarcasm rather than attempting to provide a valid argument against the ideas provided here so I pointed out the lack of argument against it.
    Tajawuka 9 monk/8 ranger/3 arti AA (3 ranger/monk/fighter pl's) - Toolbots working on Morninglord Cleric life #2 (3 wizard/sorc/druid pl) - Evisra 28 rogue

  10. #10
    Community Member brian14's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkrok View Post
    I think there's a HUGE way for Turbine to get rid of the complaints AND make more money in the store...your one TR per month thought put me on to that track:

    1) Extend the TR-timer to a much longer number. Rather than 1 week make it somewhere between 1 month and 3 months (I'd err on the short side but the rest of my suggestion will make it clear why it doesn't matter much).
    2) Make all TR's (heroic, iconic, epic) free to all players.
    3) Add TR-timer bypasses in place of the heroic hearts everywhere they're available in the game.
    4) Grant VIP's a single TR-timer bypass with their monthly points each month.

    So end result - everyone can TR toons for free.

    If I have a toon that's been sitting stagnant and I want to get back to playing the game on it? Go right ahead! A toon sitting stagnant in an unusable build makes Turbine $0. If I'm playing it they have a chance to make money.

    People that play casually (again, the 1 month, 3 month, whatever month TR timer is up to the beancounters) and TR less than the bypass...again, free. Those people aren't the ones spending on hearts and they're likely to have trouble participating in saga's, epic farming, everything getting hearts. For them, hearts = the old leveling sigils and they just get frustrated and leave.

    The heavier players will have to do the new sagas, the old tokens (while still available), etc. to earn their bypasses, buy bypasses from the store at the current heart costs, or else wait on that character to pass up their TR timer. VIP's though will be able to TR at least once a month. If they time it right (ie wait for the existing timer to run out), TR, and then TR again using their heart from that month then they could do it twice in a month. Even better, VIP's would be able to save up their bypasses - meaning that there's a reason to stay VIP even when you're not playing heavily - you can save up those TR bypasses for a time when you are.
    Brilliant!

    +1

    OP's idea -- free Heroic Heart every time you spend 1495 TP on anything, -- is not bad either.
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  11. #11
    Community Member Zibowskij's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkrok View Post
    No, I passed the sarcasm check...I just assumed you were using sarcasm rather than attempting to provide a valid argument against the ideas provided here so I pointed out the lack of argument against it.
    I'm not against the OP, I'd have a lot of hearts because of all the xp pots I bought during my lives rush for completionist. Altho I'm against what I quoted: a proposal for a moneygrab mechanism that makes heart free but forces you to buy bypasses for the proposed 1 to 3 months TR timer

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zibowskij View Post
    I'm not against the OP, I'd have a lot of hearts because of all the xp pots I bought during my lives rush for completionist. Altho I'm against what I quoted: a proposal for a moneygrab mechanism that makes heart free but forces you to buy bypasses for the proposed 1 to 3 months TR timer
    I'd just assume eliminate the hearts altogether. I get the feeling though that Turbine is dead-set on getting money directly from people that TR rather than just organically bringing in the money as they go through each life. If that is the case then I'd rather them go for a money grab on TR bypasses rather than on TR'ing itself - at least going with what I suggested takes away the ridiculous barrier, either in playing specific quests to complete sagas or in 1495 TP's - from the casual players that are unlikely to complete either one. I agree with you 100% though that ideally they'd just dump the hearts, TR-bypasses, all of it and make TR'ing free. I've got to think it would increase their sales of Otto's Boxes. :P
    Tajawuka 9 monk/8 ranger/3 arti AA (3 ranger/monk/fighter pl's) - Toolbots working on Morninglord Cleric life #2 (3 wizard/sorc/druid pl) - Evisra 28 rogue

  13. #13
    Community Member Zibowskij's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkrok View Post
    I'd just assume eliminate the hearts altogether. I get the feeling though that Turbine is dead-set on getting money directly from people that TR rather than just organically bringing in the money as they go through each life. If that is the case then I'd rather them go for a money grab on TR bypasses rather than on TR'ing itself - at least going with what I suggested takes away the ridiculous barrier, either in playing specific quests to complete sagas or in 1495 TP's - from the casual players that are unlikely to complete either one. I agree with you 100% though that ideally they'd just dump the hearts, TR-bypasses, all of it and make TR'ing free. I've got to think it would increase their sales of Otto's Boxes. :P
    No, what you asked for is yet another barrier: either we pay for the bypass or we wait for a few months before TRing. If you have so much cash that you are eager to spend it in here, do it. But don't ask us to buy for being able to TR twice in 3 months.
    That being said I'm happy that they give a paying OPTION, but it must stay an option.
    BTW there was a bypass option, even if not official, and they just fixed it

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zibowskij View Post
    No, what you asked for is yet another barrier: either we pay for the bypass or we wait for a few months before TRing. If you have so much cash that you are eager to spend it in here, do it. But don't ask us to buy for being able to TR twice in 3 months.
    That being said I'm happy that they give a paying OPTION, but it must stay an option.
    BTW there was a bypass option, even if not official, and they just fixed it
    I think you're misunderstanding. I'm not asking them to add any new barriers. I'm saying that if they're going to go down this saga for hearts path that they add this in on top of it. At the very least add, "just wait awhile for the timer to expire" as an extra option in addition to 'farm tons of sagas' and 'pay 1495 TP's'.
    Tajawuka 9 monk/8 ranger/3 arti AA (3 ranger/monk/fighter pl's) - Toolbots working on Morninglord Cleric life #2 (3 wizard/sorc/druid pl) - Evisra 28 rogue

  15. #15
    Community Member Zibowskij's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkrok View Post

    1) Extend the TR-timer to a much longer number. Rather than 1 week make it somewhere between 1 month and 3 months (I'd err on the short side but the rest of my suggestion will make it clear why it doesn't matter much).
    2) Make all TR's (heroic, iconic, epic) free to all players.
    3) Add TR-timer bypasses in place of the heroic hearts everywhere they're available in the game.
    4) Grant VIP's a single TR-timer bypass with their monthly points each month.
    This is what I'm referring to when I say you're introducing a barrier (in particular point 1). If I don't want/can't afford to buy bypasses I won't be able to TR more than once in a month/3 months. That is a P2W barrier. What you proposed is the "revamped sigil of leveling" (this time for TR), unless a person is willing to wait a huge amount of time.

    EDIT: Btw they announced they are decreasing the TR timer to 3 days. I don't think they'll make a U turn and announce the opposite

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zibowskij View Post
    This is what I'm referring to when I say you're introducing a barrier (in particular point 1). If I don't want/can't afford to buy bypasses I won't be able to TR more than once in a month/3 months. That is a P2W barrier. What you proposed is the "revamped sigil of leveling" (this time for TR), unless a person is willing to wait a huge amount of time.
    This is all assuming that Turbine is dead-set on requiring us to run multiple sagas or pay 1495 TP's to TR. Would you rather HAVE to do one of those two or have a third option of waiting?
    Tajawuka 9 monk/8 ranger/3 arti AA (3 ranger/monk/fighter pl's) - Toolbots working on Morninglord Cleric life #2 (3 wizard/sorc/druid pl) - Evisra 28 rogue

  17. #17
    Community Member Zibowskij's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkrok View Post
    This is all assuming that Turbine is dead-set on requiring us to run multiple sagas or pay 1495 TP's to TR. Would you rather HAVE to do one of those two or have a third option of waiting?
    It won't be my problem, because I won't be around anymore if either your proposal or Turbine's will go live. I find the "endgame" we have atm very boring and I like to TR a lot. ATM I'm waiting with all my toons at epic levels only because mabar is coming up and I want to farm those tomes. Otherwise I'd be back to lvl 1 already. So for me both options are out of question. One option forces me to run sagas, which I don't like because in my opinion are not well designed, the other one forces me to pay to keep staying in heroic levels.
    I'd be ok with a BTA state of the new comms and a lowering of the price tho. That way I could farm hearts in a more casual way

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zibowskij View Post
    It won't be my problem, because I won't be around anymore if either your proposal or Turbine's will go live. I find the "endgame" we have atm very boring and I like to TR a lot. ATM I'm waiting with all my toons at epic levels only because mabar is coming up and I want to farm those tomes. Otherwise I'd be back to lvl 1 already. So for me both options are out of question. One option forces me to run sagas, which I don't like because in my opinion are not well designed, the other one forces me to pay to keep staying in heroic levels.
    I'd be ok with a BTA state of the new comms and a lowering of the price tho. That way I could farm hearts in a more casual way
    That's why my preference would be for them to just do away with the hearts altogether. I think they'd do more business that way. I've been trying to throw out some middle ground options that Turbine might find more palatable as well though and this was one of those.
    Tajawuka 9 monk/8 ranger/3 arti AA (3 ranger/monk/fighter pl's) - Toolbots working on Morninglord Cleric life #2 (3 wizard/sorc/druid pl) - Evisra 28 rogue

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zibowskij View Post
    I have an even better idea! let's make all the items in the store free, but the game will become subscription only for just 500$ a month!
    I don't understand snark solves something that is a economically sound theory.

    What the OP states is one that most dinner Buffet places adopt. Pay more to eat as much as you want and most regular folks will still eat for less then the overall value is worth.

    In other words, good deals lead to other incremental spending. It's also the theory behind black friday; you get in the store for the low cost unique item and walks out with scores more then you planned.

    Or the salty peanuts in the bar.

    The same with this;

    1 free TR per month for a VIP and a buy option for a premium that adds the same. In other words it'll motivate people to become VIPs OR just buy the option. Most people will not TR more then once and others that do do so once free and then pay for the other TRs within the month. And in order to get the most bang for the bucks people spend additional money on things like potions and other resources.

    It's not only economically and practically proven sound - it's adopted in so many parts of our economy already.

    After all - who'd VIP if it didn't have some intrinsic value beyond paying 10 bucks a month and give you rights to most quests? And I can guarantee that most VIPs still spend lots of money (I do) above and beyond the free 500 TP.

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