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  1. #1
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    Default The Real Paradigm Shift Required - Development Culture at Turbine

    So this post was made yesterday in the Lamannia Forums while discussing the current plans for reinventing reincarnation. Many posters in that thread quoted it and I think it's absolutely a blueprint as to how things should be when Content/Systems/Loot decions are made.

    I am re-posting this here in hopes that A. It doesn't get hopelessly lost in it's original thread and B. There is another discussion that occurs that will help shape the way updates are approached in the future.

    And thanks to Faydingsun for quite possibly the single most important post ever made in these forums from a player or Turbine rep. Without further ado:

    Quote Originally Posted by faydingsun View Post
    There are many great ideas on these forums to improve DDO. However that is not really the main goal of Turbine, it is a business after all so lets talk profits.

    There are pushy ways to do business which may compel customers to make purchases but leave a negative impact on them. DDO is heading in that direction. It is really unnecessary as you have here a wonderful system already in place which could practically sell itself and become a much more popular game. Would you rather not have players spending money in excitement for what they are getting then bitterness for what they have to get?

    There are many features we have been begging to buy. Monster Manuals, more cosmetics, more storage, reagent bags, races, classes, housing, sex change, quests, RAIDS. These are just a few off the top of my head. If you would sell us what we want you wouldn't have to trick us into buying what we don't.

    DDO is one of the most unique and complex games I have played. The character creation system alone is the main draw for many people. Sadly most gamers have never heard of this game. Why do you not (modestly) advertise? Something simple and cheap, marketing yourself as the complex mmo or the most customizable or unique or action based combat. Any of these marketing points would be a big draw for people looking for such a game. Flaunt the strengths DDO has. There is a real niche market there for this type of game and DDO is the only place to find it.

    Stimulate the sales of adventure packs;

    While Shadowfell Conspiracy is very beautiful with great artwork and voice acting it is sadly not enough.
    Most People buy packs for 2 reasons, loot and xp. Both of witch cost you NOTHING to increase. Why don't you?

    What makes Adventure packs desirable;

    XP and Loot

    There is little to say about xp other than it should be increased if you want to make your adventure packs more enticing. If the new packs had something like von3 you would find Eveningstar much less of a ghost town.

    Loot and how it affects the sales of adventure packs;


    You have utterly destroyed the once brilliant and esteemed random loot system for no apparent reason. Not only is getting the same 4 suffixes a giant step backwards from what we knew and loved, the auction house is flooded with cheap random items that outclass most of the highest level named items. There goes any incentive to buy adventures for loot. Poor XP and meager loot have successfully rendered your new shiny expansion insignificant and undesirable regardless of it's quality.

    Revert random loot to how it used to be when MOTU launched. It was perfect. We had a plethora of unique and exciting effects, we had composed weapon affixes, we had clickies. It was fun, but now loot is boring and therefor the game is boring. Everything we loot now is the same; retributive, doublestrike, ghostbane, deadly or accuracy. We have yet to hear any dev comment as to why you would butcher such a core aspect of this game. Revert random loot and scale it to be slightly less powerful then named loot of the same level. You will once again incentivise people to buy adventures for the sexy named loot. That is one of the biggest draws to mmos, I cannot stress that enough. People love named loot in these games.

    Regarding the old packs, they were once the endgame epics. People would stay at 20, raid and farm for epic ingredients and all was wonderful. With the increase in level cap, 20 is nothing more than a pit stop. Those once sought after epic named items are nothing more then level 20 suboptimal named loot. Why do we still need to spend a year grinding for these ingredients when we are getting better random loot, regardless of how boring it is? If the old epic items dropped completed (like every other named item) it would add some value to these old packs. Another thing that made those packs attractive is the ability to work towards your reincarnation which is also being removed, further decreasing their value.

    Reincarnation

    A very tricky feature to quantify. On one hand its current popularity is mainly due to the lack of an endgame, on the other it is ingenious, innovative and unique to DDO. Actually one of the most brilliant features in the genre.

    Hearts of wood however remind me of sigils. They were removed because they were a roadblock to player retention. They created a false obstacle in front of players limiting the amount of time they could spend in the game. Hearts are now serving this purpose.

    Since the current loot mess has rendered raids quite pointless and the high level quests offering very little, there is nothing else to do at endgame currently which is only exacerbating the importance of reincarnating.
    Anything done to make the reincarnation process more difficult is going to limit the amount of time players remain customers.

    Instead you have chosen to monetize this feature with a very unpopular saga system. A system designed to sell not only hearts but adventure packs in a very underhanded manner. The community knows this, and the disdain is going to drive even more away. If the above insights about adventure packs were implemented The sales of all adventures would rise and there would be no cause to create such an unpopular system, the players would not hold resentment but respect and elation.

  2. #2
    Community Member Lonnbeimnech's Avatar
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    Yeah, he nailed it.

  3. #3
    Community Member darksol23's Avatar
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    Game.

    Set.

    Match.

    Faydingsun.
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  4. #4

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    Thank you, Drwaz99, for bringing this post to bear.

    Just as the other players in the feedback thread did, I agree with everything in the post. Turbine needs to innovate, and make new items and systems that the players WANT to buy. Like cosmetic pets. While I realize that cosmetic pets aren't for everyone, these certainly DID HIT an audience that wanted them, and still remains a pretty viable revenue aisle. At least, I think that it should, from my perspective.

    There was just recently another post in the suggestions thread: holiday costumes. This, again, is likely easily attainable - there are already Taken and Kobold skins, and the system to donn them. And, we the players would pay for goodies such as these.

    Turbine, please - take a step back, and change your attitude about garnering revenues. Give us the many things we have been asking for, and we'll have to respond again to release notes with the meme of Fry shouting for you to take our money!

  5. #5
    Community Member Kalimah's Avatar
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    Great post and spot on.
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  6. #6
    Community Member HernandoCortez's Avatar
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    Hes right. Turbine SHOULD LISTEN to their players.

  7. #7
    Scourge of Slayers FAQ's Avatar
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    Holy cow, this... this is IT. It is exactly how I'm feeling. One of the best posts I've seen. Devs, please read it. faydingsun just nail it.

  8. #8
    Community Member kafrielveddicus's Avatar
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    Totally Agree!!! I am devastated that clickies dont drop anymore, they expanded the game for all different types of builds, now everything is becoming cookie cutter!!!
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  9. #9
    Community Member Bogenbroom's Avatar
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    There are certainly some valid points in there, but I can't say I'd agree with him across the board.

    Firstly, the argument that it costs nothing to increase XP is invalid. Properly laying out XP is critical to the ongoing health of the ecosystem. The goal is to have every quest provide a reward commiserate to the effort it takes to complete it. That reward does not necessarily *have* to be XP but strong arguments could be made that XP should be consistent. However, it is entirely reasonable to take that design up a level and include other factors, such as loot available, favor awarded, further content opened up, etc as part of the reward balance.

    Likewise, the "effort" part does not necessarily have to consist of just time. In fact, overall time is a terrible measure of effort, in my opinion. But, it is something many take into account (or focus completely on) when choosing quests so it needs to be considered when trying to create a balance.

    The saga system achieves two extremely valid goals. First, it raises up that reward perspective without requiring digging into the individual aspects of all quests (not that digging wouldn't be helpful) in that it creates an even-ing effect on the rewards for quests. So, for example, Quest A has terrible rewards for running it, but by completing it you are now able to receive rewards at a later time. Second, and most importantly, it drives players to play more of the content. And it does so with rewards. I have heard a lot of complaining about this, but it is good for the game to have people running different quests instead of grinding the same ones. It is important that PUGs are available for more content. Solo-er and pure guild runners, it doesn't matter, but for PUGs, making mroe content available is important.

    The one point made in the OP, though, that is extremely valid, is that from a business standpoint you need to have the people paying for things happy with what they are paying for, or your long term will suffer. Turbine has not done a good job with controlling the perception that they are pocket diving for a while now, and that is something they need to take a look at.
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  10. #10
    Community Member Satyriasys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bogenbroom View Post
    Firstly, the argument that it costs nothing to increase XP is invalid. Properly laying out XP is critical to the ongoing health of the ecosystem. The goal is to have every quest provide a reward commiserate to the effort it takes to complete it. That reward does not necessarily *have* to be XP but strong arguments could be made that XP should be consistent. However, it is entirely reasonable to take that design up a level and include other factors, such as loot available, favor awarded, further content opened up, etc as part of the reward balance.

    The point is that if more packs had decent xp they would be more popular. Just look at House C, Amrath, or Wheloon for instance. They are barely ever run. Then compare those to Reavers Refuge or Vale. Both are very popular still. Because of the xp. When they are designing new content it costs turbine 0$ to add an extra 0 when they are setting the xp. Yes there needs to be some balance and we cannot get too much xp but theres no reasons to create poor xp packs and then wonder why they dont sell


    Quote Originally Posted by Bogenbroom View Post
    The saga system achieves two extremely valid goals. First, it raises up that reward perspective without requiring digging into the individual aspects of all quests (not that digging wouldn't be helpful) in that it creates an even-ing effect on the rewards for quests. So, for example, Quest A has terrible rewards for running it, but by completing it you are now able to receive rewards at a later time. Second, and most importantly, it drives players to play more of the content. And it does so with rewards. I have heard a lot of complaining about this, but it is good for the game to have people running different quests instead of grinding the same ones. It is important that PUGs are available for more content. Solo-er and pure guild runners, it doesn't matter, but for PUGs, making mroe content available is important.
    Your first point has some merit if the saga was a voluntary system which it is not. Your second point I cannot agree with. It is doing the exact opposite. They will be rendering every epic quest which is not in a saga obsolete. They will greatly be restricting the content we run. The content they chose for these sagas is also some of the least fun/popular/rewarding quests in the game (with the exception of Gianthold)
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  11. #11
    The Hatchery danotmano1998's Avatar
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    /Signed

    That post is great.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chilldude
    Dude, did you see they way that guy just pressed button 1? It was amazing! A display of skill unseen since the 1984 World Games where in the men's room, between events, a man washed his hands with such unbridled majesty that people were claiming the faucet he used was OP.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by HernandoCortez View Post
    Hes right. Turbine SHOULD LISTEN to their players.
    Alas they do not. Neither do they hire competent, passionate, and imaginative help - That's why their business, and the game, is tanking.

  13. #13
    Community Member faydingsun's Avatar
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    I would gladly work for Turbine and thanks guys for the repost and support of my rambling.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bogenbroom View Post
    There are certainly some valid points in there, but I can't say I'd agree with him across the board.

    Firstly, the argument that it costs nothing to increase XP is invalid. Properly laying out XP is critical to the ongoing health of the ecosystem. The goal is to have every quest provide a reward commiserate to the effort it takes to complete it. That reward does not necessarily *have* to be XP but strong arguments could be made that XP should be consistent. However, it is entirely reasonable to take that design up a level and include other factors, such as loot available, favor awarded, further content opened up, etc as part of the reward balance.
    Except that currently XP is not proportional with quest effort. There are many quests that are difficult that give miserly XP and easy quests that give great XP. The point is that balancing the system of quest rewards, including XP, loot, etc. should be one of the first things done to encourage players to purchase and run quests.

    And I wholly agree with and support Faydingsun's post.
    Last edited by HAL; 10-23-2013 at 01:17 PM.

  15. #15

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    Their mistake is to assume that we customers will just happily continue to pay for their vision of short term cash grabs.

    Now if they kept releasing MOTU quality products (and by quality I talk about content, assuming that they truly resolved to fix all bugs and problems ASAP) I'd be one happy quite consumer throwing cash at them.

    It's clear that they have decided to tell us how we should play and to make any attempt for us to do it for 'free' (meaning not paying for TR) so painful that we're simply going to pay for it. And they also want to funnel this through their worst products to date, the latest xpack debacle and the terrible harper quests.

    Maybe they assume that we should just shut up, take it and smile and if we rock the boat they'll perma ban us, but I pay for this boat. Without me there won't be one and Turbine would operate out someones garage making terrible smartphone apps.

    I want DDO to continue to thrive and I'm more then willing to grease the wheels with my money provided that the quality is there and the willingness of supplying me with the type of product I want to play.

    No one here wants our entertainment to fail, but it's clear that Turbine failed our expectations and asks us to chill out as they figure out how to crawl out of this one.

    Personally I don't care who's fault this is or if anyone has any egg on their face. All I want is a reasonable amicable solution to what we clearly want (like all type of cool reincarnations) without being forced to do sagas for a btc currency because of Turbines short term financial goals.

  16. #16
    Community Member lugoman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bogenbroom View Post

    Second, and most importantly, it drives players to play more of the content.
    No. it doesn't, at least not for everyone. Many people play games for fun. If they aren't having fun, they will go play another game. You can't "force" people to play content they don't like. Sagas force people to run quest they don't really want to.

  17. #17
    Community Member Bogenbroom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lugoman View Post
    No. it doesn't, at least not for everyone. Many people play games for fun. If they aren't having fun, they will go play another game. You can't "force" people to play content they don't like. Sagas force people to run quest they don't really want to.
    A couple of points brought up, starting with this one...

    Yes, agreed. Taking the saga system from a "here are further rewards for doing something this way" to a "doing things this way is now a requirement to reach other goals" is a mistake. It is good in that it is a way to provide further rewards for playing more and different content. However, utilizing the sagas as a gating mechanism to reincarnation, and removing other options to reach the same goal, is bad choice. Now, if they were, instead, used to create an *optional* alternative method to those goals, that would be for the good.

    Someone mentioned that the sagas were not encouraging the use of more content because they were narrowly deployed... I also wholeheartedly agree with that. If the goal is to spread the content distribution more, then the saga are a viable path, but as deployed they are a first step toward that. I, personally, have no problem with rolling them out a few at a time, but in conjunction with tying them to a requirement for reincarnation, that is a bad move at this stage of their deployment.

    They've been sort of vague on how the commendations of valor will be achievable in the long run. Will it just be via sagas (as has been feared by the community at large) or not. If it is *only* via sagas then they have taken what is, in my opinion, a great concept and turned it from a nice carrot into a annoying stick. That would completely remove any additional bonus concept for running the saga (since no one on there right mind would take anything by commendations.)
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  18. #18
    Founder Dorian's Avatar
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    wow. Spot on post.

    Thanks for re-posting here so more people (and maybe Turbine) will see it.
    Dorian

  19. #19
    Community Member Luxgolg's Avatar
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    THAT post deserves the Hall of Fame. No rage, no name calling...and explains the points the community has been screaming about for far too long.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luxgolg View Post
    THAT post deserves the Hall of Fame. No rage, no name calling...and explains the points the community has been screaming about for far too long.
    yup, i think the more players that rally behind that post the better. i've quoted it in glins thread and i recommend everyone else does too.

    this thread is also a good idea to give it the visibility it deserves
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