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  1. #1
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    Default Why do so many people want BTA so bad for the new comms?

    I'm just honestly asking, because to me its a complete non-issue what the bind status is. If I have a char, its because I want to play it, and I think it devalues a character if you don't ever play it, you just play it by proxy through your high-level main.

    Assuming they make Commendations available from more than just Saga completions - eg, from quest completions, turning in Challenge mats, basically the same way you get Tokens now - why is it such a big deal that you'd actually play the character you want to TR for a couple hours?

  2. #2
    Community Member MartinusWyllt's Avatar
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    One reason is the ability to TR a toon at 20 that might not have a build that can do well in epics or are in a life they don't want to have to slog it out on and their goal is a multi-heroic life build like, say, an EE DC caster.

    Another reason would be for the same reason people pass twink gear from one toon to the next. If you make each of your toons earn those challenge bracers/boots/sentinals gear...whatever then I expect you won't ever really understand the desire to make this new thing BtA.

  3. #3
    Community Member Saravis's Avatar
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    For me its because the same content you run for tokens or comms, you run for other reasons. I may have a character that is not ready to TR or just doesn't want to TR, but he still wants to run that content. So why should what I earn from that content go to waste? Why should it just sit around doing nothing, when I have another character that could make use of it?

  4. #4
    Community Member Battery's Avatar
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    Also because there is no logical reason not to. No currency should be BtC
    "Those who believe in telekinetics raise my hand"-Kurt Vonnegut

  5. #5
    2016 DDO Players Council PsychoBlonde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    Assuming they make Commendations available from more than just Saga completions - eg, from quest completions, turning in Challenge mats, basically the same way you get Tokens now - why is it such a big deal that you'd actually play the character you want to TR for a couple hours?
    Because an efficient leveling build is a radically different animal in most cases from an effective epic build. If I'm going to farm epics, I want to do it on the character I have in epic-ready condition, not the one I'm still grinding TR's on.

    It'll be less of a problem for me soon--I've got my 2nd completionist character finished so my next major thing is to finish her epic destinies (I was holding off on them until I saw what they were going to do with Epic TR--no sense losing ANOTHER 15M xp worth of effort on a SECOND character). That doesn't mean I want to **** all over everyone else who is still working on whatever their goal is.
    Thelanis player: Lehren (heroic/epic completionist), Kimberlei (heroic/epic completionist), Natheme, Daiahn, Arrekeh

  6. #6
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    Because I like to keep one character at cap, playing endgame (what there is of it these days) and one character in the TR process, playing heroic content. Then I play one or the other as mood strikes me, or as my friends and guildmates want to play, or even based on what's on the server LFM.

    Getting a character to lvl 20 and wanting to TR back to lvl 1 but needing to run a bunch of epic stuff on that character first - presumably a character that isn't very well geared for epics with that class - isn't fun. I'd rather collect my past life and move on. I'm willing to spend gameplay to get the TR heart, but I'd certainly prefer to do it on my character that's well experienced for epics.

    I play both characters, I just play them in different content. If you want to give me the TR Heart during my heroic gameplay, then I could work that out too.

  7. #7
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    You think its a complete non issue? Heres 2 reasons why it definately is an issue.

    1. The previous currency, tokens were BTA. It an effective nerf to make the new currency BTC.

    2. The currency doesnt all need to be collected on the same toon in order to TR that toon if its BTA.

    The entire idea of planned TRing is to get to 20 and TR. Its not to get to 20, spend inordinate amounts of time farming sagas to get a heart, then TRing afterward. Of course they likely believe that designing more irritation into the system will coerce more folks to pay directly for hearts rather than attaining them in game. This is after all what its all about. Apparently the old hamster wheel wasnt irritating enough to make people want to pay to circumvent grinding it out, so they not only made grinding it out alot tougher in and of itself, they made it require having specific packs included in the sagas in order to grind efficiently. Dont like a specific pack and didnt buy it? Now youll have to choose between buying the pack, buying TR hearts, or taking arbitrarily much longer than it used to in order to earn them in game free.

    To everyone who justified p2w over the years by claiming its OK because you can earn this stuff in game, this is what you supported. The systematic nerfing of the rate at which desired items can be earned free in game, in hopes that you will pay directly for it through the store.
    Last edited by Chai; 10-22-2013 at 01:43 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  8. #8
    Community Member Lonnbeimnech's Avatar
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    say you have 6 characters, you keep 5 at cap to fill the differrent rolls for grouping for raids and quests, and you have one that is i the middle of tring. it might be a completionist project or you might tr a different one each time.

    while the 5 toons are running epics, they will collect enough tokens for one of them to tr. but if they are btc, they each will have a few tokens and none of them can tr, and now you have to go out of your way to grind tokens.

  9. #9
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    I'd imagine part of it is "want to vs. need to." As it is now, if I want to run the character I want to TR to get what is necessary, I can; likewise, if I want to run another character at the moment and advance them, I can complete two objectives at once - running as the character I want to, and getting progress toward TRing the other. Having the materials BtC means that luxury is removed.

    Additionally, perhaps the character you want to TR is not that efficient at the method you use to get tokens. It may be a flavor build that is enjoyable, but ends up not potent enough to get the job done at a decent clip. The player could pike a few quests of course, but some people prefer solo. Currently, such players can switch to a more proficient character, get the tokens necessary, and then have their other character TR. There is also the possibility that the character didn't end up the way the player expected, or it could be a class the player doesn't like, and is just cruising through to get over it. Once more, being able to shelve the character in question and being able to hammer out what is needed to TR is quite the boon.

    There is, of course, the issue of inventory space. While some people do not have issues with space, other people do. Having the item BtA means that your main can just chuck the item to an alt or a mule, freeing up space for other wanted or needed items.
    Anything can be explained by drunken wizards.

    "Hey! I got a piece of the +1 Butter Knife of Victory! Ah-oh, wait, wait. It's just a crummy, normal +1 dagger of ghostbane..."

  10. #10
    Community Member Satyriasys's Avatar
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    It would be less of an issue if we were able to accumulate comms on our way to 20. But currently they're forcing you to gear yourself and play epics even if your only interest in 1-20.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    I'm just honestly asking, because to me its a complete non-issue what the bind status is. If I have a char, its because I want to play it, and I think it devalues a character if you don't ever play it, you just play it by proxy through your high-level main.

    Assuming they make Commendations available from more than just Saga completions - eg, from quest completions, turning in Challenge mats, basically the same way you get Tokens now - why is it such a big deal that you'd actually play the character you want to TR for a couple hours?
    For me I would like them to be BtA, because I have way too much BtC stuff cloggin' my inventory. I've been playing since Dec 2012 and I feel like I'm drowning in BtC items. No more BtC items please.

  12. #12
    Community Member darkly_dreaming's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=PsychoBlonde;5143024]Because an efficient leveling build is a radically different animal in most cases from an effective epic build. If I'm going to farm epics, I want to do it on the character I have in epic-ready condition, not the one I'm still grinding TR's on.QUOTE]

    There's also the issue of storage constraints. Personally I do not have the space to keep a variety of Epic level gear and items in my TR bank that would be reasonable to have in order to make each life's build semi-viable in Epic while I grind out Tokens/Commendations for the next TR.

    Therefore it just makes sense to gain those tokens doing content on another character that would be running it anyway, and swap it over to my TR project(s).
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  13. #13
    2016 DDO Players Council Qhualor's Avatar
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    For me, I TR for the past lives. The final life is what i care only about. I only have good enough gear for heroics. I would probably have the gear to run epics on my final life. Up until now, with BTA tokens, we have had the ability to TR at 20. These sagas would force us to run specific content, on specific characters, running probably no higher than EH and it could be days or weeks before you can TR for another past life depending on cost of hearts and earned Comms per saga completion.

    I also see the reasoning behind it as a "fix" for ED grinding. Their current proposal could make it so you could level whatever past life class you are on and earn enough xp for that destiny before you TR again. Instead of actually fixing the ED grind to make more sense so barbs don't have to level through the Arcane sphere for fate points, they want to implement this BTC system. I believe this is why they haven't said yeah or nay on Comms being BTA.

  14. #14
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    Mechanically, bta means that once you hit 20, you can use a heart that you've earned previously or on a character much better suited to epic content. There are plenty of builds I could make to run from 1 to 20 that I have no interest in bringing into epic content. Forcing epic play on toons that only want to run from 1 to 20 is forcing players to play a part of the game they have no interest in. Let me use my main to collect and farm coms while I run endgame and then pass those coms to my TR toons so they don't have to "waste time" in epic content before I can TR again.

    This is probably exactly what the devs have in mind. They want us to play epic content. Those fresh level 20 toons "should" be playing some epic content according to them. This I believe is where the disconnect lies between players and devs. Also this is a rather large unseen additional cost added to in-game earned hearts. Not only do you have to spend significant time farming them, but it's time over and beyond the amount of time you want to put into the character anyway. Once it hits 20, you want to TR, not wait any longer. Add to this the fact that store bought hearts negate the grinding time as well as the "wasted" time above level 20 and it's turning an already long grind into a double whammy grind you have no interest in doing. Turbine is increasing the grind with the currently low drop rate, forcing specific content to be played (sagas only) and forcing all that onto the toon you want to TR, which was not a restriction in the past. In addition all this work comes after your character is finished for that particular life and just wants to move on. So many nerfs compared to the old system. Under the old system, buying a heart in the store saved you just the basic grind for tokens. With Turbine adding 3 additional nerfs, they are really pushing people to buy the hearts from the store in order to bypass new added restrictions they have added on purpose to promote store sales. They either don't think we see this or don't care.
    Last edited by redspecter23; 10-22-2013 at 01:53 PM.
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  15. #15
    Community Member Miow's Avatar
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    I wouldn't assume anything at this point for arguments sake, as of now we won't know for sure if sagas are their only source.

    If i'm rolling a completionist, i certainly don't spend time leveling epic levels, i tr my character at 20. If i don't like my build @20, need to change race, alignment etc...i tr him i don't play epic levels. My point is there are characters people don't want to play past 20 right now.

    Currently i have my completionist project, a cap character, a dc character, a funky build character and a monk(perhaps my second cap character eventually)

  16. #16
    Community Member Arnhelm's Avatar
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    For myself, I admit I use other chars to earn my TR heart ingredients. Sometimes the character I want to TR simply isn't fun enough to want to run in Epic content, such as my bow-focused Ranger and my first-life Cleric. That's just my take on it.

    Making the Commendations of Valor BtA will allow me to continue to run my Barbarian as my primary TR heart ingredient collector. I like him, he's fun for me to play, and I'm comfortable with him in almost every quest or raid in the game.
    There is no free lunch.

  17. #17
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    You think its a complete non issue? Heres 2 reasons why it definately is an issue.

    1. The previous currency, tokens were BTA. It an effective nerf to make the new currency BTC.

    2. The currency doesnt all need to be collected on the same toon in order to TR that toon if its BTA.

    The entire idea of planned TRing is to get to 20 and TR. Its not to get to 20, spend inordinate amounts of time farming sagas to get a heart, then TRing afterward. Of course they likely believe that designing more irritation into the system will coerce more folks to pay directly for hearts rather than attaining them in game. This is after all what its all about. Apparently the old hamster wheel wasnt irritating enough to make people want to pay to circumvent grinding it out, so they not only made grinding it out alot tougher in and of itself, they made it require having specific packs included in the sagas in order to grind efficiently. Dont like a specific pack and didnt buy it? Now youll have to choose between buying the pack, buying TR hearts, or taking arbitrarily much longer than it used to in order to earn them in game free.

    To everyone who justified p2w over the years by claiming its OK because you can earn this stuff in game, this is what you supported. The systematic nerfing of the rate at which desired items can be earned free in game, in hopes that you will pay directly for it through the store.

    Come on, Chai. The ones who justified it was Turbine. Everyone else just justifies playing a game that is headed in that direction. Until you can't justify it anymore because it just becomes boring. You supported it as much as anyone when you give them a monthly subscription. Yes, you vocally cried out at anything put in the store. But little was changed. This is one topic that most people can get behind. I don't like it one bit. But I can also see some of their points-of-view. I just think they have to take the time to really see what's important here. Reincarnation is a big part of this game. And I speak as someone who doesn't even care much it. Just on a purely personal level. As a gimmick to add longevity to content I thought it was pretty near genius. It just came too late for me. As far as I was concerned as soon as I got to level cap I "won". I guess I'd done those early quests too often before TR existed and just saw no more point in doing them. Not to run through the entire leveling process to gain a little ability and more easily beat the content that existed.

    Turbine is devaluing everyone's existing "content" to push sales pure and simple. Going forward the only way to earn TR hearts will be through Sagas. Even the old TRs. Thus it forces those specific quests as the only game to play if you want to play in their latest Reincarnation game. Basically, I'm asked to pay for the privilege of playing my character through content I've done and paid for before or I better play only the content they want me to if I want to earn in-game methods.

    They've crossed a huge line for many, many people. This is a hard new system irritation to swallow, even under the guise of fixing an exploit. I very much don't want to have to pay again and again, in time and money, for the right to access the content I've already played through. And the only ways to play through it is by playing a narrow band of the content I do own and some of it as just obviously trying to push me towards buying specific packs, that I may not want.

    Shadowfell had to be a lot more popular for them to try and force it on people. This just feels like a really heavy-handed attempt to sell an Expansion that under-sold.

    Right now it feels like the game makers think that the Epic game should be designed as an irritation that players have to go through even if they just want to reincarnate.

  18. #18
    Community Member Arnez's Avatar
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    I can't imagine that BtC comms would help the PUGing scene. At All.

    "Looking for Cleric to run X Epic Saga"

    "Sorry, my cleric has enough- can I bring my barbarian? Do you have another hfealer?"

  19. #19
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    Well there's some logical arguments here, but a lot of it does still just follow the line of "it'd be easier to do it on my endgame main"...

    What if you earned Comms in Heroic content, so it wasn't a complete gear-change when you hit 20? I've suggested that already.

    What if you only needed to run ~2-3 hours worth of Epic content, as you currently do - maybe 5 max? is L21 Epic Normal really that much different from L20 Heroic Elite?

  20. #20
    Community Member AbyssalMage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    You think its a complete non issue? Heres 2 reasons why it definately is an issue.

    1. The previous currency, tokens were BTA. It an effective nerf to make the new currency BTC.

    2. The currency doesnt all need to be collected on the same toon in order to TR that toon if its BTA.

    The entire idea of planned TRing is to get to 20 and TR. Its not to get to 20, spend inordinate amounts of time farming sagas to get a heart, then TRing afterward. Of course they likely believe that designing more irritation into the system will coerce more folks to pay directly for hearts rather than attaining them in game. This is after all what its all about. Apparently the old hamster wheel wasnt irritating enough to make people want to pay to circumvent grinding it out, so they not only made grinding it out alot tougher in and of itself, they made it require having specific packs included in the sagas in order to grind efficiently. Dont like a specific pack and didnt buy it? Now youll have to choose between buying the pack, buying TR hearts, or taking arbitrarily much longer than it used to in order to earn them in game free.
    I support your reasoning and feel the same way why the change is happening.

    To everyone who justified p2w over the years by claiming its OK because you can earn this stuff in game, this is what you supported. The systematic nerfing of the rate at which desired items can be earned free in game, in hopes that you will pay directly for it through the store.
    I am offended by this. I don't mind p2w mechanics as long as they play fairly. I don't mind toll roads but when there is a non-compete clause and suddenly speed limits are reduced on your normal commute, red lights go up, and traffic is specifically congested to force you onto the roll roads, then I protest toll roads just like everyone else. Turbine is doing the same thing. They are placing non-compete clauses into their game, changing the rules. So yes, I take offense to what you said about me. I dislike what they are doing just as much as everyone else who is upset.
    Last edited by AbyssalMage; 10-22-2013 at 02:30 PM. Reason: forgot a [/quote] box

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