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  1. #1
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    Default Quests after Update 14 doesn't have the 'Epic' feel

    I like the storming the underworld, attacking drow and eventually fighting a goddess. It has a sense of progression leading to a raid.

    The newer quests doesn't have the same epic feel. The mobs just have higher CR.

    Wandering Stormhold the poachers are level 27? These deer poachers are stronger then trained drow assassins?

    DDO is going downhill in terms of building these ideas. The prison, these condemn convicts stronger then demons? Come on.

    It's not like FR has a shortage of truly epic stories and monsters. CR 27 deer poachers kills the immersion. So after you fight the demon queen, TOD, Velah etc. you now fight deer poachers.

    No wonder losing players.
    Last edited by Fallout_Zero; 10-22-2013 at 01:12 PM.

  2. #2
    Community Member toaftoaf's Avatar
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    dont forget they just add high numbers of mob too. hmm cant think of anything intresting.. i know lets add metric shizton of mob that will be fun :/.. ya it might be fun if the crazy 10 procs per hit lag went away
    i swear they dont have a ranger with improved shot so they cant test it

  3. #3
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    have to agree with this, CR50-something wolves is just ********.

    We should be in Sigil at level 28, or raising armies, something actually 'epic.'

  4. #4
    Community Member brian14's Avatar
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    That's why I never bought "High Road of Shadows" pack. I knew it would just irritate the heck out of me.

    CR 36 rats in epic Red Fens were ridiculous enough.
    "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder."

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  5. #5
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    Actually it's quite simple. These quests weren't designed as level 28 quests. They were designed initially as low level fr quests so you could travel there earlier and have heroic adventures in FR. BUT they needed an expansion cause expansions were $$$ and all "teh kewl" mmo's always have increased level caps with each expansion and the designs were already there so there you have it. Wolves CR ++
    Translate all these adventures into level 5 or level 4 even... imagine the loot as level 5 or level 4 where they would actually make some sense (level 7/8 sword with 1d4 fire and cold and acid and lightning? Yes please)

    *I could be wrong but I like pretending I'm one of the cool kids that are always right

  6. #6
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    have to agree with this, CR50-something wolves is just ********.

    We should be in Sigil at level 28, or raising armies, something actually 'epic.'
    Stopping a devil invasion? Keeping a mad lich from ascending to god-hood? Maybe even spend time on an alternate plane with freaking cities built on chunks of ruined battlefields cross the eons.

    I'd love to run a quest like that at cap.

    I don't mind fighting gods, but not their belly buttons whilst I wonder when I'm going to need to start running away from their hand. Rescuing people trapped in a house is something I did in Stormreach (Gramma Binder sure does have a purty mouth), doing it again in another town isn't epic.
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  7. #7
    Community Member Ykt's Avatar
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    Well if most mobs were not just buffed up versions of normal mobs (dogs, hunters ...) we would be fighting couples of evil Elminsters, squads of drow Demi-gods and swarms of Baatezus.

    "Ok Shade you take care of these 30 Arraetrikoses, I will kill these 25 Suulomadeses while Tukaw watches for demi-gods flying on dracoliches".

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ykt View Post
    Well if most mobs were not just buffed up versions of normal mobs (dogs, hunters ...) we would be fighting couples of evil Elminsters, squads of drow Demi-gods and swarms of Baatezus.

    "Ok Shade you take care of these 30 Arraetrikoses, I will kill these 25 Suulomadeses while Tukaw watches for demi-gods flying on dracoliches".
    Heh that's fine, at least that would be worthy instead of deer poachers.

    It just feels like a big let down. After building momentum, fighting demons mid level in Shroud. Taking battle in the demons home turf in Amarath. Defeating the god to be Abbot.

    Now we are battling common condemn criminals and deer poachers.

    We fought the sexy demon queen and took her chaos blades. But a criminal in prison has a much better weapon than a demon queen.

    I hope Turbine has better epic quests in the horizon. I don't want to fight L60 grandmothers or L70 bunny rabbits. Higher CR not equal to epic. You lose immersion.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallout_Zero View Post
    L70 bunny rabbits.
    Only if they're from Caerbannog!

    Quote Originally Posted by Fallout_Zero View Post
    Higher CR not equal to epic. You lose immersion.
    I agree and this has been a problem with DDO for a long time... We really shouldn't be doing pedestrian fetch quests and beating on trivial vermin and commoners past level 3.

    One of the propblems is that DDO was rushed out the door for launch, about half finished, and has been trying to play catchup with content ever since. It's suffered from an extremely low Monster selection and they clearly don't have either a full time animator or vertex puller on the dev team.

    At this point they should just go through the whole game and restructure the quests, Put all the "Epic" stuff at level 30 cap in preparation for the next cap increase. and distribute everything that's less epic down lower in the progression. Stuff like Wheloon and highroad could be mid/high level, Abbot/Necro 3+4 DQ, Titan, Sub-T, Amrath all the really epic feeling stuff and end game raids would be lvl 30.
    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    You can't possibly design good gameplay if excitement unpredictability and unknowns are NOT ALLOWED because they confuse some players who want everything cut and dried and spelled out for them.

  10. #10
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    U14 didn't feel the least bit epic either. Fighting wolves and spiders and seemingly every drow in existence is strong enough that a few of them together could easily wipe out Lolth herself. Not to mention invisible walls, being unable to get past a wooden door despite 100 strength, ability to hurl meteors and teleport at will and monsters that do endless soliloquies and are indestructible while doing so. And the ridiculous weblines and invisible non-magic spell wards. We haven't had a decent quest since IQ.

  11. #11
    Community Member ThePrincipal's Avatar
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    yep the game starts to unravel after about lvl 16. I actually think playing to 18 and holding to 20 to TR is really how the game is meant to be played. Or at least it was until they ruin TRing.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by oweieie View Post
    We haven't had a decent quest since IQ.
    Carnival, Red Fens and Lordsmarch are all rock solid.

    EDIT: Though if you meant high level quest, which in retrospect it seems kind of obvious you did, please ignore this reply.

  13. #13
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    There are some newer quests/areas that are pretty solid in regards to immersion. The underdark is pretty solid other then a few of the spiders. The Demonweb is pretty good as well. The high road and druid quests are much more lacking. I actually think Whelon and Stormhorns are less bad although wolves should be something else. A part of the problem with the areas after the demonweb is there are too many humanoids with no real backstory as to why the humanoids are so uber.
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  14. #14
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    Part of the problem is DDO seems to have very same-same feeling MOBs due to them all having around the same stats at any given level... so it always takes a predictable amount of time to beat everything down. There's not a wide enough range of CR's and there's no variation between the same kinds of mobs.

    In Diablo they have mobs that are easy as heck to kill but they can overwelm you (swarming mobs like bees and vermin) you can mow through them (feeling powerful) but if you get in over your head things get dicey REAL QUICK. Then you'll happen onto a yellow or orange with some unique power or spell abilities and not know what you're up against... leading to excitement and challenge, and unpredictability. Mobs in Diablo can be just about anything, and there's so many random combo's that sometimes you can run into something that will KICK YOUR A** if you try and fight it the same as any other mob.

    I've always said DDO like every overly meta gamey MMO could learn a lesson in replay value from the Rogue-like genre.

    D3 is a SMALL game, tiny in fact I'd say it's not much bigger than the Stormhorns + quests... Yet unlike the Stormhorns which lasted for about 6 days, I got a MONTH out of D3 and stopped playing MOSTLY because I bought all the loot off the AH and then got "meh" about it. (that and D3 really doesn't have real random maps, they are more shuffled than procedural or random) Still over 30 days of playing something the size of Stormhorns, versus 5 or 6 days of playing Stormhorns... That's SIX TIMES more replay value, and that's with semi-not-really-all-that-randomized maps. I played D1 for nearly two years with SIXTEEN MAPS all much smaller than an average DDO dungeon no secrets, no traps, just highly randomized, random loot and random mob affixes.
    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    You can't possibly design good gameplay if excitement unpredictability and unknowns are NOT ALLOWED because they confuse some players who want everything cut and dried and spelled out for them.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by oweieie View Post
    U14 didn't feel the least bit epic either.
    It did when you get into the Demonweb. In the personal planar space of the goddes of spiders, having CR 50 spiders is justifiable. Having the dead corpses and souls of every single drow that ever existed in Faerun is also whitin her reach.

    It is just something that my friends and I call "the Dragon Ball Z problem". If you defeat something that is immenselly powerful, the next enemy must feel as a bigger threat, or you can't compare them. DDO did this marvelously up to MotU. I mean, let's go in chronological order, following the level cap quests.

    Launch: Tempest Spine had tough drow, a storm giant sorcerer, and a vast mountain fortress. Felt like a great level 10 raid, and set up the expectations for future raiding.

    Mod 1: Vault of Night. Our first dragon. That alone is worth of notice. Other than that, we got to break into a Kunradak Vault with the help of a famous group of bandits that failed to break in a few weeks before.

    Mod 2: Twilight Forge. Antique quori excavation site with a powerful Warforged Titan. It is more a puzzle raid than a power raid. The quest storyline is solid as a "forgotten power" thing.

    Mod 3: Menechtarun. The first time we meet a greater fiend. Lailat's title (Demon Queen) is not because she is a major queen in Shavarath, but the wife of the great wizard-king Raiyum. She is powerful enough that you requires the help of an elder djinn to actually have a change to fight her to the death. because she is not a immobile sack of HP, she also feels more threatening than Velah.

    Mod 4: Gianthold. We have been getting hints on the Stormreaver legend since Waterworks (Actually, since the opening movie). Besides his charges actually making him easier than intended for caster classes, he is a living legend, and an ally of the good guys. He don't feel more powerful than Lailat, but his significance to the game storyline is much larger.

    Mod 5: Abbot. The conclusion of the Necropolis saga. Another puzzle raid. Threat level on par with the Stormreaver (about the same impact fighting, about the same impact history-wise).

    Mod 6: Shroud. As a side effect of the Abbot's plan, you brought Shavarath into the Vale of Twilight. First time we meet a major devil, and also had to fight him twice! Also introduced the most loved raid gear up to today. Great update to the new level cap of 16.

    Mod 7: Run to the Subterrane! Two new raids (VoD and HoX). One is a puzzle boss (but still threatening), another is a major devil that can holding a beat better than Harry. And he does not fight alone like our beloved pit fiend. Both are on par with Shroud on power level, but since you raced to the subterran to find them, they feel more rewarding to beat them silly.

    Mod 8: Not a raid per se, but I think Sor'jek in SoS deserve a mention here. The conclusion to the fight we started in Tempest's Spine.

    Mod 9/Unlimited: The final fight of the Devil saga. We invade Amrath and fight the devils in their home plane. Horoth holds water and keep the tradition of strong and fearsome devil raid bosses.

    Update 2: Not a raid per se, but I think Dreaming Dark deserves a mention here. Not for the boss (that is kinda awesome for the first level 20 quest in game), but for the council of quori recognizing your past feats.

    Update 7: Chronoscope retcons the devil invasion not as a retaliation for us breaking Harry's ritual in the Shroud, but as a past event from Stormreach before we sinked in Khortos beach. Also the first epic raid that is not a reharsal of old content. As an epic boss, Conjoined Abishai Devastador does not feel stronger than Lailat or Velah, but the fight is varied enough that he can still places as a "good" boss.

    Update 10: Not a raid per se, but I think Belashyrra deserves a mention here. First canon NPC we actually meet and fight in the game.

    Update 11: Cannith raids. For the short time before MotU, LoB was THE boss to be beaten. The new benchmark for epic characters after Horoth. So, he definitelly hold his water as a raid boss. The storyline is also epic, hoping that you help Cannith solve two major problems that they face at the same time. MA, on the other hand, is another puzzle raid. Not bad as a raid per se, but Toven lack the "raid boss" feeling.

    Update 13: Not a raid per se, but I think Spinner of Shadows deserves a mention here. First deity we actually meet and fight in the game. OK, Overlords are not deities per se, but since Eberron don't have confirmed deities, it is the closest thing akin to a god the setting have.

    Update 14: MotU have the right setting. A major boss, a new world to explore, and a great storyline delivered. However, belly button fight is not exactly exciting, and Ana taking our victory in the last seconds just to discover she was all-powerful was... depressing.

    Update 17: Fall of Truth deliver the end to the Stormreaver saga. Another puzzle raid. I have yet to understand WHY (history-wise) the Stormreaver turn on us mid-fight, but other than that, a satisfying fight and storyline.

    The problem is... we currently have one major storyline going without a raid conclusion (Netheril invasion to Cormyr), but that MIGHT have ended with What Goes Up. What else they can add to the game to make an exciting raid, that feels more "powerful" than the level 24 deity beat up?
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  16. #16
    Community Member Powerhungry's Avatar
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    Default more "powerful" than the level 24 deity beat up?

    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    The problem is... we currently have one major storyline going without a raid conclusion (Netheril invasion to Cormyr), but that MIGHT have ended with What Goes Up. What else they can add to the game to make an exciting raid, that feels more "powerful" than the level 24 deity beat up?
    Since we defeated Lloth's plans, she gets her revenge on the FR world by summoning in the Tarrasque.

  17. #17
    Community Member kuro_zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerhungry View Post
    Since we defeated Lloth's plans, she gets her revenge on the FR world by summoning in the Tarrasque.
    The pre-req quests will be "helping" (Read: fetching) elminstr gather the material components required to power the wish spell needed to wish it dead. Because our epic casters for some reason don't get that spell...

    The raid will luring the beast through a long convoluted path, presumably to an area its more susceptible or vulnerable or whatever. There will be numerous packs of trash that have to be fought through for some reason we can't let the tarrasque just mow through them.

    The "finale" will be a defend mission while Elminster casts the spell during which we need to beat down the tarrasque and prevent numerous trash from "interrupting" the spell.

    Of course, the raid will be bugged and Elminster will never actually complete casting the spell, making the raid uncompletable.

    Obviously I say this in jest, but sadly I can see this happening...
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  18. #18
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    give us an hive mother beholder or a regenerating Hydra... maybe in underdark explorer area...that is largely unused.

    give us more demons, major demons..plenty of that in FR settings

    really guys... so much supervillains are around, but they require a lot more develop time then spamming cr 50 wolves all around

  19. #19
    Community Member Singular's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallout_Zero View Post
    I like the storming the underworld, attacking drow and eventually fighting a goddess. It has a sense of progression leading to a raid.

    The newer quests doesn't have the same epic feel. The mobs just have higher CR.

    Wandering Stormhold the poachers are level 27? These deer poachers are stronger then trained drow assassins?

    DDO is going downhill in terms of building these ideas. The prison, these condemn convicts stronger then demons? Come on.

    It's not like FR has a shortage of truly epic stories and monsters. CR 27 deer poachers kills the immersion. So after you fight the demon queen, TOD, Velah etc. you now fight deer poachers.

    No wonder losing players.
    hahaha! What an awesome post.

    Yes, totally! Instead of fighting Lloth and tossing the most powerful prisoners in a city, let's just release them, with rats and a few wolves, into the CITW. They'll eat her in just a few seconds.

    The melee types: "Well, I retired from battling gods and demons. I guess I'll leisurely hunt deer."

    The caster types: "Well, I retired from battling gods and demons. I guess I'll leisurely create ultra powerful vermin. In case a god comes back this way, my rats can kill it."

  20. #20
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    Since they are going to epicfy 3BC again we ask NOT to simply change the CR of existing mobs.
    A L30+ pirate? All I can say this better be a Pirate god, not some deckhand who scrubs the ship.

    Don't continue to kill immersion that is Shaowfell which is a lousy paid expansion.

    SAY NO TO EPIC DEER POACHERS! Do not repeat the same immersion killing mistakes. Players want to fight something with an epic feel, not low level animals who some how got their HP suddenly inflated.

    Remember players have fought a goddess. Next logical step is not fighting feral dogs or cats.

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