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  1. #1
    Hero nibel's Avatar
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    Default Unpopular request: Change Epic Destinies to Epic Classes

    Disclaimer: I know a lot of people did a lot of work on EDs. But overall, I think this proposal will help epic levels more than EDs does currently. So, please, don't read the title and simply disagreee with "I farmed X a lot to have maxxed destinies and I don't like you taking my toys". Thanks.

    Currently, level 21 to 28 don't give you much to thrive or build for. You get a plain progression (+10 HP per level, +1 to all skills per level, +1 BAB on odd levels, +1 saves on even levels) and access to epic feats. However, the real progression on epic levels comes from your progression in Epic Destinies. Thus, a level 20 character with a maximized destiny is almost ever more powerful than a level 28 character with no Epic Destiny at all.

    DDO have a great building community, and most of those builds are focused on heroic levels because there is where you can mix and match your leveling process to get various benefits that you could not get any other way. Epic levels lack this. The only character decision you make during those levels are your feat choices. Eventually you end up with all EDs maximized, and there is no progression to make.

    That is why I'm proposing to add to the game every current ED as an epic class, with their own progression, allowing us to gain real character power when we advance in epic levels, and letting us actually planning builds through epic levels as well.

    The following is just a rough sketch that can be layered out if there is enough people interested, or if this gain dev attention.

    "But EDs requires cash spent to be acessible. Turbine would never approve this without the cash option."

    That is easy to solve. Epic trainer should only allow you to level up in their class if you purchase the epic class pack (Technically, the same cost as EDs cost now). People that do not have access to the epic class pack can only level up in the gneric Epic class (the current epic progression).

    Said that, lets go into the rough specifics.

    • Trainers: Epic class trainers would be in the Hall of Heroes. They refuse to talk to people that don't have access to them.
    • Proficiencies: Epic classes gives no extra proficiency in weapons, armors, or shields. This is defined by your heroic classes.
    • Hit Dice: Magister will get 8 HP per level. Fury, Sentinel, and Dreadnough would get 12 HP per level. Every other class will stay with 10 HP per level.
    • Skill Points: As a rough sketch, epic classes will have 2 more skill points per level than their base class. So, Shadowdancer would get (12+Int) skill points per level, and Draconic would get (6+Int) skill points per level. Epic (the common class) will get no skill points.
    • Class Skills: As a rough sketch, they would have the same class skills as their base class (Fatesinger uses bard skillset, magister the wizard skillset, etc).
    • Base Attack Bonus: Sentinel, Deadnought, Grandmaster and Fury get +1 BAB per level. Every other epic class follow the current system (+1 BAB on odd levels).
    • Saves: Every class get +1 to all saves on even levels.
    • Class features: As a rough sketch, they will get their core benefits at each level. Some EDs might need extra stuff to fit here (Magister and Draconic, mostly). Epic (common) get a Epic Skills feat every level.
    • Multiclass: You are allowed to get 3 different epic classes, just like you can have 3 different heroic classes.
    • Enhancement trees: They each have a single enhancement tree with the same limitations as current epic system (4 points spent per tier to get the next tier).
    • Enhancement points: You get 4 generic Epic Action Points to spend per epic level (including level 20) that can go into any of your epic classes. In the current level cap of 28 you would end up with 32 EAP. However, the tiers are limited in the same way the enhancement system works. Eg.: you also requires 6 levels in Grandmaster of Flowers to get access to Everything in Nothing.
    • Epic Destiny Feats: Those would require 5 class levels in the same sphere (for feats that requires one ED maxxed), or 8 class levels in the same sphere (for feats that requires 2 EDs maxxed). They would still be awarded at level 26 and 28.
    • Twists of Fate: Removed. People that have eaten a Tome of Fate should be compensated somehow.
    • Epic Past Lives: Would work more akin to current heroic past lifes. If most of your classes are from an arcane destiny, you get an arcane epic past life. No need to track Karma separately.
    • Existing Characters: All their epic levels are turned into Epic (commoner) levels. Might also be giving to everyone a LR to switch epic classes to the new classes.
    Amossa d'Cannith, Sarlona, casually trying Completionist (12/14) [<o>]
    Almost-never-played-alts: Arquera - Chapolin - Fabber - Herweg - Mecanico - Tenma


    I want DDO to be a better game. Those are my personal suggestions on: Ammunition, Archmage, Combat Stances, Deities, Dispel Magic, Epic Destiny Map, Fast Healing, Favor, Favored Enemy, Half-elf Enhancements, Monk Kensai, Monk Stances, Past Life, Potency, Potions, Ranger Spells, Summons, Tiered Loot.

  2. #2
    Forum Turtle
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    I actually rather like this. Especially since the new level cap is coming, and I'm sure things will be even harder than they are now, this would be a good balancing reponse for players with that.
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  3. #3
    Community Member Ykt's Avatar
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    No one will quit the game because another complete system overhaul would have wasted dozens of hours of gameplay.

    Old epic items have been made worthless, epic tokens are about to suffer the same fate, and you want to destroy epic destinies too?

  4. #4
    Community Member Satyriasys's Avatar
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    So basically you want to be stuck in one destiny? Easy enough to achieve.
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  5. #5
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    Yeah, I fail to see how this changes anything, except prevent you from changing your destiny or advancing multiple destinies without TRing.

    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    • Hit Dice: Magister will get 8 HP per level. Fury, Sentinel, and Dreadnough would get 12 HP per level. Every other class will stay with 10 HP per level.
    • Skill Points: As a rough sketch, epic classes will have 2 more skill points per level than their base class. So, Shadowdancer would get (12+Int) skill points per level, and Draconic would get (6+Int) skill points per level. Epic (the common class) will get no skill points.
    • Base Attack Bonus: Sentinel, Deadnought, Grandmaster and Fury get +1 BAB per level. Every other epic class follow the current system (+1 BAB on odd levels).
    • Class features: As a rough sketch, they will get their core benefits at each level. Some EDs might need extra stuff to fit here (Magister and Draconic, mostly). Epic (common) get a Epic Skills feat every level.
    • Multiclass: You are allowed to get 3 different epic classes, just like you can have 3 different heroic classes.
    A lot of your list just enumerated the ways that Epic Levels would be the same as Epic Destinies. To respond to the remaining points....

    -"Tough" destinies already give +HP in the cores, that's the same as giving them increased hit die
    -If you give spendable skill points past 20, all that means is required DCs (Search, Disable, Bluff, UMD, etc.) are going to go up as well.
    -Likewise, +4 BAB isn't going to do much for the martial Epic Classes. There's no attack speed bonus from 24 to 28, and to-hit is not a problem for those classes.
    -What are the "core benefits" of a class, besides hit die/SPs/saves/BAB/etc.? You already addressed those.
    -This is what Twists are already for - bring in a few lower-level skills from another Destiny. Except your idea would be a nerf, since you couldn't max one Epic Class and take twists from another.

  6. #6
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    No. This idea is just plain terrible.

  7. #7
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    Something akin to this might have been a good idea BEFORE U14. But trying to switch to it now is crazy-talk.

  8. #8
    Hero nibel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satyriasys View Post
    So basically you want to be stuck in one destiny? Easy enough to achieve.
    If that was what you got from my OP, I need to improve my writting skills.

    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    Yeah, I fail to see how this changes anything, except prevent you from changing your destiny or advancing multiple destinies without TRing.
    Also allow two other things: Give us a reason to actually level up, and allow one more level of multiclassing that is abscent from epic levels. Every current build only list heroic levels because every build end with /Epic 8, that gives you nothing "as a class". You have no build choices there, unlike you have on heroic, where for 20 levels you can choose if you want to stay pure class, duas class, or triple class, and the specific levels of each one.

    It also allow ED growing, with more APs, and sumarily kill the Fate Point grind with epic multiclassing to almost the same effect (specially when the level cap raise to 30 next year).

    Now to your specifics:

    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    -"Tough" destinies already give +HP in the cores, that's the same as giving them increased hit die
    It was more for a aesthetic reason than practical. The overall HP change is almost the same. I like "tough" classes having more HP than others.

    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    -If you give spendable skill points past 20, all that means is required DCs (Search, Disable, Bluff, UMD, etc.) are going to go up as well.
    Currently you already get +1 to all skills with every epic level. Skill-wise, this suggestion may be actually a nerf. On the other hand, it allow specific growth of more than +1 per level in a non-maxed skill.

    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    -Likewise, +4 BAB isn't going to do much for the martial Epic Classes. There's no attack speed bonus from 24 to 28, and to-hit is not a problem for those classes.
    For full BAB classes (paladin, barbarian, fighter, ranger, unarmed monk), no. For the other classes, and for some multiclassed build, this can allow them to actually reach BAB +20 eventually. Currently, a pure druid reach BAB +19 at level 28. Someone that splash 1 to 3 elvels of a non-full BAB class lose 1 BAB in the long run.

    Like the HP thing, it is mostly an aesthetic bonus.

    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    -What are the "core benefits" of a class, besides hit die/SPs/saves/BAB/etc.? You already addressed those.
    The core enhancements that you currently get for free with each ED level. They would be instead linked to each actual class level.

    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    -This is what Twists are already for - bring in a few lower-level skills from another Destiny. Except your idea would be a nerf, since you couldn't max one Epic Class and take twists from another.
    With the future intended level cap being 30 you could get tier 6 abilities (like Master's Blitz) with 6 levels of Dreadnough, and mix 4 levels of another class, and get full benefits from 4 levels, instead of a single twist.

    For classes with weak capstones (like Magister and Exalted Angel), you can actually mix and match better. Imagine a DPS/CC wizard with Magister 4/Shiradi 4 that can get the best from Magister and Double Rainbow without any twists.

    For pure epic classes, you end up with 32 AP to spend in their trees instead of current 24.

    Sure, the drawback is that you can't change EDs after every quest. But no one complains that you are stuck with rogue levels once you get a level on rogue.
    Amossa d'Cannith, Sarlona, casually trying Completionist (12/14) [<o>]
    Almost-never-played-alts: Arquera - Chapolin - Fabber - Herweg - Mecanico - Tenma


    I want DDO to be a better game. Those are my personal suggestions on: Ammunition, Archmage, Combat Stances, Deities, Dispel Magic, Epic Destiny Map, Fast Healing, Favor, Favored Enemy, Half-elf Enhancements, Monk Kensai, Monk Stances, Past Life, Potency, Potions, Ranger Spells, Summons, Tiered Loot.

  9. #9
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    Actually, it's possible to retain the idea of Epic Destinies and introduce "Epic Classes" without problem.

    The first thing is to redefine: Epic Destinies and Enhancement Trees are now similar to one another; thus, you can keep Epic Destinies as-is and nothing would change. Perhaps what *would* change is the amount of points you can spend on each Epic Destiny; 20-24 points per Destiny isn't that much when you think about it. Essentially, you'd get Epic Destiny points in the same way as you'd get points for the Enhancement Trees, or perhaps at a reduced rate. Alternatively, you could grant Heroic Enhancement points at a reduced rate, and the rest as Epic Destiny points. The main difference would be that Epic Destinies no longer provide a stunted growth of CL.

    Class-wise, you have two options. If you're multiclassing, you can finish up those classes (and potentially get their capstones). If you're pure-classed, you continue getting some of the benefits (same skill points, same HD), your number-based class bonuses increase (LoH, Smite damage, CL, Monk unarmed strike damage, etc.) However, once you get to 21st level, you progress BAB and saves exactly as it currently is (+1 BAB every even level, +1 to all saves every odd level), whether you've reached proper Epic levels on your primary class or not.

    You know...exactly as it is on the SRD, except you're accounting for Epic Destinies as if they were Epic Enhancement Trees. You could keep the current system to some degree (you get the ED points through Epic class levels, you gain access to adjacent Epic Destinies much like the norm).

  10. #10
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    i like the idea, in general

  11. #11
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    Please, no more systems changes.

    This is probably something that should have been considered before MotU. I'll admit that generic commoner levels + purchased destinies is a horrible gameplay combination that was done only so they could monetize epic levels, but changing it now when it's so close to actually working properly shouldn't even be considered. This system is just a few bugs short of not having to be looked at by a dev again for a long time and that means that other bugs can be worked on. No more buggy systems eating up resources to fix, years after release.

    I'm downright sick of systems changes at this point. Especially changes to systems that are just over a year old.
    Kaarloe - Degenerate Matter - Argonnessen

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post
    Please, no more systems changes.

    This is probably something that should have been considered before MotU. I'll admit that generic commoner levels + purchased destinies is a horrible gameplay combination that was done only so they could monetize epic levels, but changing it now when it's so close to actually working properly shouldn't even be considered. This system is just a few bugs short of not having to be looked at by a dev again for a long time and that means that other bugs can be worked on. No more buggy systems eating up resources to fix, years after release.

    I'm downright sick of systems changes at this point. Especially changes to systems that are just over a year old.
    This. I *do* like the idea in principle, or at least parts of it, but I don't think this is the right time for another big overhaul like this.

    Edit: Keep this on the backburner. If DDO's still around and you still play in a year or two, we can always hope that the problems that are there are ironed out. Not holding my breath, but you have to hope for something!

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