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  1. #781
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    * Whether or not we phase out Tokens of the Twelve at any point.
    * Whether or not we phase out trading in Tokens of the Twelve for Heroic True Hearts of Wood at any point (probably not).
    *does Happy Dance!*
    My TRs are happy that this is even being CONSIDERED.

    And again, thank you for the continued communication.
    Dawnstrider, Officer of Pay It Forward (Sarlona)

  2. #782
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Here's some things that are up for discussion here at Turbine. We're trying to come up with more public proposals Soon(tm).

    * Binding of Commendations of Valor
    * Binding of Hearts of Wood (if these are BtA and the Commendations are BtC, you can still farm with an alternate character. And we can still re-use Commendations of Valor in the future for other items that we feel should be BtC, or use for upgrading BtC loot, instead of adding an additional new ingredient type in the future and an additional way to get that new ingredient. This is not a done deal in any case, as this also means you cannot combine ingredients from alternate characters.)
    * Additional ways to earn Commendations of Valor besides Sagas, for U20.
    * Whether or not Sagas earn Commendations of Valor at all.
    * Whether or not the methods for earning Heroic True Hearts of Wood are the same as the methods for earning Epic Hearts of Wood or Iconic True Hearts of Wood.
    * Whether or not we phase out Tokens of the Twelve at any point.
    * Whether or not we phase out trading in Tokens of the Twelve for Heroic True Hearts of Wood at any point (probably not).
    * What content you can use to earn various Hearts of Wood.


    We're also trying to make sure that today's Lamannia release showing off other aspects of Reincarnation goes smoothly and that you guys have what you need in order to give good feedback.
    Based on your recap you clearly understand the concerns raised. I look forward to hearing more later.

    Thank you!
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  3. #783
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Here's some things that are up for discussion here at Turbine. We're trying to come up with more public proposals Soon(tm).

    * Binding of Commendations of Valor
    * Binding of Hearts of Wood (if these are BtA and the Commendations are BtC, you can still farm with an alternate character. And we can still re-use Commendations of Valor in the future for other items that we feel should be BtC, or use for upgrading BtC loot, instead of adding an additional new ingredient type in the future and an additional way to get that new ingredient. This is not a done deal in any case, as this also means you cannot combine ingredients from alternate characters.)
    * Additional ways to earn Commendations of Valor besides Sagas, for U20.
    * Whether or not Sagas earn Commendations of Valor at all.
    * Whether or not the methods for earning Heroic True Hearts of Wood are the same as the methods for earning Epic Hearts of Wood or Iconic True Hearts of Wood.
    * Whether or not we phase out Tokens of the Twelve at any point.
    * Whether or not we phase out trading in Tokens of the Twelve for Heroic True Hearts of Wood at any point (probably not).
    * What content you can use to earn various Hearts of Wood.


    We're also trying to make sure that today's Lamannia release showing off other aspects of Reincarnation goes smoothly and that you guys have what you need in order to give good feedback.
    I am glad that most of those points are being discussed. I think it makes a logical consequence of untying heroic and epic/Iconic TR that you allow for a difference in focus in where to get the hearts from (personally I like the HTRs as a favor reward thing, tying it in with raiding or tying it in with other quest chains).

    I would feel that getting both Epic and Iconic hearts from sagas as well as from epic raids and from doing challenges (at a rate that makes if feel rewarding, but also means its not 2-3 times or more playing every quest in the game for a single TR).

    On the other hand, It would be a good step to rather simplify the amount of barter currencies in the game than add another one on top.

  4. #784
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Here's some things that are up for discussion here at Turbine. We're trying to come up with more public proposals Soon(tm).
    * Binding of Commendations of Valor
    Totally depends on what they do and how you get them. If it is something new and shiny, you've got a more receptive case for BTC.

    The outcry is around things we can get today w/ BTA mats and with much less grind - thus, this was a huge punch to the gut when originally announced.
    * Binding of Hearts of Wood (if these are BtA and the Commendations are BtC, you can still farm with an alternate character. And we can still re-use Commendations of Valor in the future for other items that we feel should be BtC, or use for upgrading BtC loot, instead of adding an additional new ingredient type in the future and an additional way to get that new ingredient. This is not a done deal in any case, as this also means you cannot combine ingredients from alternate characters.)
    BTA for the reward could work; more important MAKE SURE there is something useful you can get with this currency for anyone - any class, etc. This is one reason why the Eveningstar comms work as BTC - once you get enough or you pick up some from a category you don't like, you can still get some consumables.

    Note this shouldn't work for big farming things like Shroud or Challenge materials. Those and anything like them should be BTA.

    * Additional ways to earn Commendations of Valor besides Sagas, for U20.
    Good stuff. If the only in-game way to get hearts is via Sagas and they remain relatively expensive, you just dropped the meaningful-choice quotient on all the other reward options close to zero ... you will run Sagas to get hearts.
    * Whether or not Sagas earn Commendations of Valor at all.
    Tied to the one above.
    * Whether or not the methods for earning Heroic True Hearts of Wood are the same as the methods for earning Epic Hearts of Wood or Iconic True Hearts of Wood.
    See my first point about the gut-punch. You can make a different means to get True Hearts and phase out the existing - but it should have at least parity with the current capability, meaning you can do it as soon as you hit 20 if you prep/plan for it.
    * Whether or not we phase out Tokens of the Twelve at any point.
    Don't go thinking these are sacrosanct. You can get rid of them, but replace them with something useful - and today they are primarily used for +1 stat augments and hearts of wood. Oh and the Master's Gift.

    For a long time people have suggested that maybe you convert Greater / Epic Tokens of the Twelve into Commendations of Heroism. You could also convert all Tokens / Token fragments into your new Commendations of Valor / whatever (if CoV were goint to be BTA; if not you should have a barter turn-in).
    * Whether or not we phase out trading in Tokens of the Twelve for Heroic True Hearts of Wood at any point (probably not).
    See above.
    * What content you can use to earn various Hearts of Wood.
    A very important question. If the answer is "you have to basically get to level 24 before you have the possibility of doing a heroic reincarnate", you're off-target.
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  5. #785
    Founder & Hero Steiner-Davion's Avatar
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    Ugh, second time posting, 1st post was mysterioiusly eaten and never showed up after I pressed submit.

    Vargouille, thank for for the open communication regarding what exactly is being discussed by the development team and management.

    This is exactly the type of communication we need. On the plus side, I can't forsee how anything you just posted could end up with you mispeaking. Now you can relax a bit about posting here.



    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Here's some things that are up for discussion here at Turbine. We're trying to come up with more public proposals Soon(tm).

    * Binding of Commendations of Valor
    * Binding of Hearts of Wood (if these are BtA and the Commendations are BtC, you can still farm with an alternate character. And we can still re-use Commendations of Valor in the future for other items that we feel should be BtC, or use for upgrading BtC loot, instead of adding an additional new ingredient type in the future and an additional way to get that new ingredient.
    The bolded section makes a lot of sense, and I can definitely understand the logic there.

    This is not a done deal in any case, as this also means you cannot combine ingredients from alternate characters.)
    Good point, had more on this in my original post that was eaten, will try to recall what I said SOON(tm)!

    * Additional ways to earn Commendations of Valor besides Sagas, for U20.
    * Whether or not Sagas earn Commendations of Valor at all.
    * Whether or not the methods for earning Heroic True Hearts of Wood are the same as the methods for earning Epic Hearts of Wood or Iconic True Hearts of Wood.
    * Whether or not we phase out Tokens of the Twelve at any point.
    * Whether or not we phase out trading in Tokens of the Twelve for Heroic True Hearts of Wood at any point (probably not).
    If by this you mean they will end up like the guild augment vendors, that would be cool.

    * What content you can use to earn various Hearts of Wood.


    We're also trying to make sure that today's Lamannia release showing off other aspects of Reincarnation goes smoothly and that you guys have what you need in order to give good feedback.
    Last edited by Steiner-Davion; 10-25-2013 at 05:27 AM.

  6. #786
    Developer Vargouille's Avatar
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    For anyone interested in other stuff with Reincarnation or XP changes, we're happy to hear feedback over there too!

    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...on-Information
    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...e-new-XP-Curve

  7. #787
    The Hatchery CaptainSpacePony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Here's some things that are up for discussion here at Turbine. We're trying to come up with more public proposals Soon(tm).

    * Binding of Commendations of Valor
    * Binding of Hearts of Wood (if these are BtA and the Commendations are BtC, you can still farm with an alternate character. And we can still re-use Commendations of Valor in the future for other items that we feel should be BtC, or use for upgrading BtC loot, instead of adding an additional new ingredient type in the future and an additional way to get that new ingredient. This is not a done deal in any case, as this also means you cannot combine ingredients from alternate characters.)
    * Additional ways to earn Commendations of Valor besides Sagas, for U20.
    * Whether or not Sagas earn Commendations of Valor at all.
    * Whether or not the methods for earning Heroic True Hearts of Wood are the same as the methods for earning Epic Hearts of Wood or Iconic True Hearts of Wood.
    * Whether or not we phase out Tokens of the Twelve at any point.
    * Whether or not we phase out trading in Tokens of the Twelve for Heroic True Hearts of Wood at any point (probably not).
    * What content you can use to earn various Hearts of Wood.


    We're also trying to make sure that today's Lamannia release showing off other aspects of Reincarnation goes smoothly and that you guys have what you need in order to give good feedback.
    Great to hear these are exactly the points I'd previously weighed in on. (Meaning I think they are the key issues.) I look forward to further developments.
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  8. #788
    Founder & Hero Steiner-Davion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    * Binding of Hearts of Wood (if these are BtA and the Commendations are BtC, you can still farm with an alternate character. And we can still re-use Commendations of Valor in the future for other items that we feel should be BtC, or use for upgrading BtC loot, instead of adding an additional new ingredient type in the future and an additional way to get that new ingredient. This is not a done deal in any case, as this also means you cannot combine ingredients from alternate characters.)
    Remebered what I had wanted to post earlier, and the edit function is taking forever to load, so new post, sorry.

    If the currency in question (CoVs) were to be BtA or [eek, heavens forbid] Unbound, then if you wanted to introduced a new thing you could get with this currency, all you would have to do is increase the drop rate for the currency slightly, and up the costs of the things you could get with the currency. This would keep the grinding about the same, and allow you to control how fast players could get the new thing (especially after the inital release). Additionally, it will allow you to keep inflation in check, by offering increased variety of rewards, while controlling the value of the currency to be about the same.

  9. #789
    Community Member Ebondevil's Avatar
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    State of Epic Tokens and Powergaming:

    Originally Epics were highly limited, once per day, very difficult etc, pretty much limited to the Powergamers, casual Gamers had no real options of getting tokens, the Epic quests were too hard and any casual Gamer, wouldn't have the characters capable of partaking in them. as a result they were mostly excluded.

    Tokens: Power Gamer only (Exclusive, Valuable and Bad)
    True Hearts: Power gamers only (Exclusive, Valuable and Bad)


    With the Release of MotU and Cannith Challenges, the Epic playfield was changed and suddenly the casual gamer had a much better chance to partake, Epics became additional quests instead of just highly limited very difficult quests for the elite (Power gamers), this meant that there was more chance for them to gain the tokens, power gamers were more likely to invite them to partake in teams. Some might even be willing to pass their tokens to their friends, spreading the wealth around. I personally found it easier to gain tokens than my friends, so whenever I quested with them I would pass them my tokens, even if I didn't have enough for what I wanted, since they would have a harder time getting them.

    With the number of purchase options available for tokens, True Hearts weren't the goto item, or the only thing worth purchasing, I personally spent dozens of tokens before I bought a heart, working on getting my tier 3 Cannith Items with nice augments for example.

    Tokens: Everyone could get them, the playfield between Powergamers and Casual Gamers was somewhat leveled (Not exclusive, Valuable, and Good)
    True Hearts: Everyone could get them, but there were other options, other things to buy than hearts, leaving these as a final option once you were ready to take the plunge (Not Exclusive, Valuable, and Good)

    Then Turbine started the system of Deprecating the tokens, the main killer was the Augment pass which created augments for every level of item, while this was a good thing for customization, it effectively stripped any value from the majority of augments available for tokens, many of which could be acquired more cheaply elsewhere, leaving Hearts as the only thing of any real value that could be purchased with Tokens. This resulted in a devaluation of the Tokens and the hearts, the tokens didn't become more available than before, there was just less to spend them on.

    Tokens: Everyone could get them, the Playfield between Powergamers and Casual Gamers was leveled, but there was very little to spend them on (Not exclusive, and Devalued)
    True Hearts: Devalued because there was nothing else competing for the currency.


    The new commendations of Valour, are just Epic tokens with a different name when you get right down to it, in a further attempt to devalue the tokens so they can finish deprecating them, however, the commendations are entering the playfield at the same place that epic tokens did originally, they'll be relatively exclusive for the power gamer, and exclude the casual gamer, with the added disadvantage that you won't be able to pass them to friends who might have more trouble earning them. Not to mention Bound to Character Makes them even more exclusive.


    Summary:

    There's two basic ways to increase the value of the currency, make it Rare and hard to get, or give lots of different things to spend it on.

    If it is rare and hard to get it becomes limited to the power gamer only.
    If there is a lot to buy with it, then it's possible to have more of it drop, and thus make it available to a larger group of people, this includes the casual gamer.

    Being unable to pass the currency around in end chests or the like also makes it more exclusive, and means that the power gamers will end up with more of the currency as they won't be able to pass it to the casual gamer at need.

    Everything the Commendations are proposed to be is firmly pushing them into the hands of the Power gamer at the exclusion of the Casual gamer. They have the disadvantage of the Current tokens (very little to spend them on), and none of the advantages.

    Everything the Tokens currently are, works to help balance out the Power gamer and Casual gamer, the only problem with them is they have been devalued from a lack of anything other than hearts to spend them on.


    BtC versus BtA:

    If items it's Bound to character it encourages players to focus on one character at the exclusion of other, this discourages people from buying more character slots, it also devalues the shared bank. While more Bound To Account items means that players can have more characters on the go, and players without the Shared bank will be more likely to get the shared bank. BtA by it's very nature encourages people to spend more TP!

    In general if something is BtC, then as soon as it is no longer of any use to the character that has it, then it becomes trash.
    In general if something is BtA, then as soon as it is no longer of any use to the character that has it, it can be passed on to another character!

    Basically BTC is trash, unless it is something so good that you will want to keep it for your next life, and the life after that, etc.

    Personally I think BtC should be highly limited to very rare and powerful items, Rare Raid loot and the like, not random stuff you pick up as trash loot, or stuff you buy from the store.


    Solutions:


    • Whatever Currency you decide to use, standardise it, whether that's Tokens of the Twelve or Commendations of Valour (Have trade in options)
    • The Currency needs to be BtA at a Minimum
    • The Currency Should drop in Chests so players can pass to their friends, this is a social game afterall.
    • Their needs to be a large variety of items that can be bought with the currency, that will entice the player to spend it, not just purchase Reincarnation Hearts.
    • The Currency needs to be available to both the Power gamer and the Casual gamer
    • Ideally the Currency should be available from multiple sources: Saga's, Quests, Raids, Chests, Challenges (Cannith and Eveningstar)
    • Ideally the Currency should not be limited to a specific level range, but higher levels should be the better places to get it.*
    • If there needs to be items exclusive to a pack, use the currency and a special item that only drops from the pack (Brain Sample and Watcher's Eye from Reign of Madness come to mind)
    • Don't be afraid to adjust the prices of Items slowly over time, if required.


    * Baseline for acquisition can be set at level 20+ but there should be some chance of getting it at lower levels, this gives people the feeling that when it drops lower they are getting a bonus!

  10. #790
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Here's some things that are up for discussion here at Turbine. We're trying to come up with more public proposals Soon(tm).

    * Binding of Commendations of Valor
    * Binding of Hearts of Wood (if these are BtA and the Commendations are BtC, you can still farm with an alternate character. And we can still re-use Commendations of Valor in the future for other items that we feel should be BtC, or use for upgrading BtC loot, instead of adding an additional new ingredient type in the future and an additional way to get that new ingredient. This is not a done deal in any case, as this also means you cannot combine ingredients from alternate characters.)
    * Additional ways to earn Commendations of Valor besides Sagas, for U20.
    * Whether or not Sagas earn Commendations of Valor at all.
    * Whether or not the methods for earning Heroic True Hearts of Wood are the same as the methods for earning Epic Hearts of Wood or Iconic True Hearts of Wood.
    * Whether or not we phase out Tokens of the Twelve at any point.
    * Whether or not we phase out trading in Tokens of the Twelve for Heroic True Hearts of Wood at any point (probably not).
    * What content you can use to earn various Hearts of Wood.


    We're also trying to make sure that today's Lamannia release showing off other aspects of Reincarnation goes smoothly and that you guys have what you need in order to give good feedback.
    Thanks very much for posting this. This goes a long way to restoring my faith in Turbine.

    Two things have already been posted that I think are worth repeating:
    5) When you start the new method, leave the old method COMPLETELY intact and running in parallel with the new system for 6 months to make sure the new system is running as well as you think it is. Provide a lossless bi-directional trade for old/new currency.
    Agreed. Barring technical problems, I think this is the way to go, seeing how often bugs come out of the woodwork.

    If you want a BTC currency why not use one we already have? Heroic commendations. People have been begging for more ways to earn them and you would simultaneously be adding new options for spending them as well. This would also give people who are uninterested in reincarnating something that's already useful.
    There may be issues with this we're not aware of, but it does seem like a very good suggestion.

    Thanks again for the communication. For now, I'm still on the bridge, but you made me considder occupying Mabar instead

    Greetz,
    Red Orm

  11. #791
    Bwest Fwiends Memnir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Here's some things that are up for discussion here at Turbine. We're trying to come up with more public proposals Soon(tm).
    Thank you again, Vargoulle. Here is where I myself stand on a few of the points you mentioned, just by way of feedback on them:


    * Binding of Hearts of Wood (if these are BtA and the Commendations are BtC, you can still farm with an alternate character. And we can still re-use Commendations of Valor in the future for other items that we feel should be BtC, or use for upgrading BtC loot, instead of adding an additional new ingredient type in the future and an additional way to get that new ingredient. This is not a done deal in any case, as this also means you cannot combine ingredients from alternate characters.)
    I'd be totally fine with this, dependent on Commendations being made more available. There is content I enjoy running, and some I refuse to... and that content that I loathe enough to refuse to run it is not something I'd appreciate being forced to run in order to grind out Comms.

    * Additional ways to earn Commendations of Valor besides Sagas, for U20.
    If you decide to keep Heroic TRing attached to Commendations, I think it would be of key interest that several avenues to earn them be implemented.

    * Whether or not Sagas earn Commendations of Valor at all.
    I'd say No to this, particularly if you want to keep Heroic TR attached to Commendations.

    * Whether or not the methods for earning Heroic True Hearts of Wood are the same as the methods for earning Epic Hearts of Wood or Iconic True Hearts of Wood.
    Please make them separate, as they themselves are very different things.

    * Whether or not we phase out Tokens of the Twelve at any point.
    My vote: No. The system works, and is in place. Why muddy the water by changing it?

    * Whether or not we phase out trading in Tokens of the Twelve for Heroic True Hearts of Wood at any point (probably not).

    I'd prefer you stick with "probably not".

    * What content you can use to earn various Hearts of Wood.
    Please make sure to include F2P content in that list of content. A lot of discontent I've heard is that Sagas are mostly pay to play, thus narrowing their availability to those who'd rather not be forced into buying content to TR.



    Thank you again, Varg. The more communication there is with the players on matters like this the better. It avoids massive flame-outs like there have been in the past - including the very, very recent past.
    Last edited by Memnir; 10-24-2013 at 02:45 PM.
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  12. #792
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Here's some things that are up for discussion here at Turbine. We're trying to come up with more public proposals Soon(tm).

    * Binding of Commendations of Valor
    * Binding of Hearts of Wood (if these are BtA and the Commendations are BtC, you can still farm with an alternate character. And we can still re-use Commendations of Valor in the future for other items that we feel should be BtC, or use for upgrading BtC loot, instead of adding an additional new ingredient type in the future and an additional way to get that new ingredient. This is not a done deal in any case, as this also means you cannot combine ingredients from alternate characters.)
    * Additional ways to earn Commendations of Valor besides Sagas, for U20.
    * Whether or not Sagas earn Commendations of Valor at all.
    * Whether or not the methods for earning Heroic True Hearts of Wood are the same as the methods for earning Epic Hearts of Wood or Iconic True Hearts of Wood.
    * Whether or not we phase out Tokens of the Twelve at any point.
    * Whether or not we phase out trading in Tokens of the Twelve for Heroic True Hearts of Wood at any point (probably not).
    * What content you can use to earn various Hearts of Wood.


    We're also trying to make sure that today's Lamannia release showing off other aspects of Reincarnation goes smoothly and that you guys have what you need in order to give good feedback.
    thank you

    i understand this doesn't mean we'll get a perfect system for everyone, but it does mean you have everyones opinions in mind

    i like the point about BtC vs BtA on the commendations and hearts, that sort of juicy info is always nice to hear and goes a long way to helping us understand why it's not a quick choice to make

    loving the "for U20" part of adding other ways to get commendations in. my initial expectation (beyond you leaving tokens of the twelve in) was any additional methods would be pegged for later updates. so it's very nice to hear you're thinking of ways you can roll out alternative methods now

    as for sagas, my personal preference is they become an alternative and optional method to earn the commendations. keeping the spirit of sagas as they are now, an entirely optional mechanic with some juicy rewards. i've really enjoyed picking up saga rewards so far so would like to see their spirit maintained.

    splitting heroic and epic hearts up gives you guys more flexibility in how you deal with them and is one thing the players seem quite happy for you to tinker with to get the right solution

    nice to hear you're reconsidering deprecating the tokens of the twelve. i do understand their farming has got a little too easy with the increased power of destinies and higher level at our fingers, so some way to make the reward appropriate to the risk could help revitalise that old system and make it scale into the future

    as for trading tokens for hearts, it's gotta be the lowest hanging fruit in terms of allowing players to TR as they do now, so no wonder you're tempted to keep it

    also great to hear you are considering content players own, some people put a lot of thought into which adventure packs they buy so it's nice to see their choices are being thought of now.

    once again, thankyou for the post and fingers crossed you'll have some great ideas to show us soon
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  13. #793
    Community Member Chaimberland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Here's some things that are up for discussion here at Turbine. We're trying to come up with more public proposals Soon(tm).

    * Binding of Commendations of Valor
    * Binding of Hearts of Wood (if these are BtA and the Commendations are BtC, you can still farm with an alternate character. And we can still re-use Commendations of Valor in the future for other items that we feel should be BtC, or use for upgrading BtC loot, instead of adding an additional new ingredient type in the future and an additional way to get that new ingredient. This is not a done deal in any case, as this also means you cannot combine ingredients from alternate characters.)
    * Additional ways to earn Commendations of Valor besides Sagas, for U20.
    * Whether or not Sagas earn Commendations of Valor at all.
    * Whether or not the methods for earning Heroic True Hearts of Wood are the same as the methods for earning Epic Hearts of Wood or Iconic True Hearts of Wood.
    * Whether or not we phase out Tokens of the Twelve at any point.
    * Whether or not we phase out trading in Tokens of the Twelve for Heroic True Hearts of Wood at any point (probably not).
    * What content you can use to earn various Hearts of Wood.


    We're also trying to make sure that today's Lamannia release showing off other aspects of Reincarnation goes smoothly and that you guys have what you need in order to give good feedback.
    Sounds like you are all working hard to find a reasonable solution. Thank you very, very, very much!

  14. #794
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Here's some things that are up for discussion here at Turbine. We're trying to come up with more public proposals Soon(tm).

    * Whether or not Sagas earn Commendations of Valor at all.
    ^^This

    (more than any other point for me)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Antiguo View Post
    Tell me one legitimate reason for BtC comendations that doesnt involve cash grabbing from the store, i dare you.
    Because they want the game to be challenging. It is not just them, I hear this stupid garbage from the players all the time. Why can't epic elite loot drop on epic casual even though people that play casual tend to be the worst players that are in need of the best loot to make up for their lack of skill? Because epic casual is too easy and people need to be challenged if they want a good reward. It is garbage logic but I hear this junk from players far more than developers. Single player games understand that challenge should be separate from reward. I am currently playing The Last of Us on Survivor difficulty (the hardest setting). I get no extra rewards for doing this (in fact there are far fewer items to find because that is part of what makes it challenging). But in MMO's the moronic players feel that they have to be challenged to get a good reward. Far from letting people do what they find fun (e.g. challenge for those of us that like it and easy relaxing quests with great rewards for those that don't) we instead have this silly mechanic of combining challenge and reward as if they need to be bound together.

    Enjoy the fruits of your whining players. You have long said that the most challenging content needs to have the best rewards and this is what you asked for. If playing on an alt allows you to avoid the challenge then naturally it would cause you to lose the reward too since this is what you seem to want. Perhaps in this one case you think you should be able to duck your own moronic rules, but many of the people I hear whining about the BtC feature are the same people that think I am crazy for thinking that challenge and reward should not be linked. Welcome to my world. This is what you asked for.
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  16. #796

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    * Binding of Hearts of Wood (if these are BtA and the Commendations are BtC, you can still farm with an alternate character. And we can still re-use Commendations of Valor in the future for other items that we feel should be BtC, or use for upgrading BtC loot, instead of adding an additional new ingredient type in the future and an additional way to get that new ingredient. This is not a done deal in any case, as this also means you cannot combine ingredients from alternate characters.)
    Ah, now I see why you mentioned the binding of hearts. I see where you're going with that. I'll cast my vote for keeping the ingredients themselves BTA, but if it turns out you absolutely must make them BTC but in turn make the hearts BTA, that's not the end of the world.

    Just to clarify, I strongly prefer BTA ingredients.

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    Thank you kindly for taking the time to give us more information, and to all of the devs for reviewing the feedback.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Here's some things that are up for discussion here at Turbine. We're trying to come up with more public proposals Soon(tm).

    * Binding of Commendations of Valor
    * Binding of Hearts of Wood (if these are BtA and the Commendations are BtC, you can still farm with an alternate character. And we can still re-use Commendations of Valor in the future for other items that we feel should be BtC, or use for upgrading BtC loot, instead of adding an additional new ingredient type in the future and an additional way to get that new ingredient. This is not a done deal in any case, as this also means you cannot combine ingredients from alternate characters.)
    I believe that the player base will be more receptive as long as one of these remain BtA. Thank you for explaining why the Devs have considered BtC in the first place. As a matter of convenience, I think more players would prefer the CoV to be BtA.

    For example, say I've been working on a character I want to Heroic TR, and they're up to 180 CoV. However, the last day or two, I've been playing an alt, helping guildies or friends; my alt, which I may not want to TR, is up to 70 CoV. It is more convenient to be able to transfer the remaining amount over and get my TR done for the charrie I've been working on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    * Additional ways to earn Commendations of Valor besides Sagas, for U20.
    Some players have voiced the suggestion to drop them as parts of end chests. If you want to encourage quest variety, would it be possible to put the CoV on its own ransack timer per chest, or would that cause an undue amount of work? That way, if it is possible, the CoV could drop once a day from a particular end chest. Players will be able to pick and choose which quests they want to play to get the drops, without having to do quests they do not want to.

    What about favor? Say about, 1500 total favor or so, a character gets a couple of CoV, and again every 100 favor thereafter? Favor strongly encourages running a wide range of content.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    * Whether or not Sagas earn Commendations of Valor at all.
    I don't think anyone dislikes the idea of having the CoV drop in sagas, as long as sagas are not the only way to get them. Once more, I bring up the notion of an encouraging nudge vs. forceful shove; if sagas drop these as a bonus, in addition to other ways, it is an encouraging nudge - players don't have to do it, but they can get the coms a little faster in order to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    * Whether or not the methods for earning Heroic True Hearts of Wood are the same as the methods for earning Epic Hearts of Wood or Iconic True Hearts of Wood.
    I think a lot of stress could be alleviated if CoV does not affect Heroic TR, and if it is made exclusively for Epic TR. I cannot say anything on the Iconics, as I have not played any at this point in time. I think if you leave Tokens of the Twelve for heroic TR and made CoV for Epic TR (and possibly Iconics), it could go a long way for players accepting having CoV having BtC status.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    * Whether or not we phase out Tokens of the Twelve at any point.
    I've already spoken on of my preference on the issue; I don't feel the need to reiterate. My thanks to the devs to reviewing this topic again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    * Whether or not we phase out trading in Tokens of the Twelve for Heroic True Hearts of Wood at any point (probably not).
    The "probably not" is very encouraging. Thank you very much for sharing this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    * What content you can use to earn various Hearts of Wood.
    Since they are no longer labeled "Epic Tokens," and it seems that epic levels are wanted for the promotion of CoV, how receptive would the devs be to the idea for extending token fragments to being dropped in lower level quests? Such as, token fragments begin to drop on Lv 18 or even Lv 17 quests. Full tokens could still be exclusive to Lv 20 quests. At 21+, CoVs start dropping.

    And if you really wanted to make players happy, you could also allow CoV to be downgraded into tokens, perhaps at the Altar of Epic Rituals. I think that would be another measure to make people more receptive to being BtC; you can horde them on a character for the big epic TR and rewards, or you can break a couple to pass around for account-bound heroic TRs.
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  18. #798
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    Quote Originally Posted by erethizon View Post
    Because they want the game to be challenging. It is not just them, I hear this stupid garbage from the players all the time. Why can't epic elite loot drop on epic casual even though people that play casual tend to be the worst players that are in need of the best loot to make up for their lack of skill? Because epic casual is too easy and people need to be challenged if they want a good reward. It is garbage logic but I hear this junk from players far more than developers. Single player games understand that challenge should be separate from reward. I am currently playing The Last of Us on Survivor difficulty (the hardest setting). I get no extra rewards for doing this (in fact there are far fewer items to find because that is part of what makes it challenging). But in MMO's the moronic players feel that they have to be challenged to get a good reward. Far from letting people do what they find fun (e.g. challenge for those of us that like it and easy relaxing quests with great rewards for those that don't) we instead have this silly mechanic of combining challenge and reward as if they need to be bound together.

    Enjoy the fruits of your whining players. You have long said that the most challenging content needs to have the best rewards and this is what you asked for. If playing on an alt allows you to avoid the challenge then naturally it would cause you to lose the reward too since this is what you seem to want. Perhaps in this one case you think you should be able to duck your own moronic rules, but many of the people I hear whining about the BtC feature are the same people that think I am crazy for thinking that challenge and reward should not be linked. Welcome to my world. This is what you asked for.
    erm, i hate to burst your bubble, but it seems quite clear turbine are looking for a way to allow us to farm heroic hearts with capped alts.

    as for rewards and challenge, it's just one type of game balance. normally called risk vs reward it can be a very engaging type of gameplay.

    i bumped into this in silkroad, there it's nothing to do with risk vs reward, it's all to do with grind efficiency. the balance was such that to progress the fastest i have to get in a position to 1-shot mobs about 10 levels below me that posed absolutely no threat. if however i fought for my life to kill a single mob 10 levels above me i got next to no reward. when i discovered that i looked up DDO, gave the 7 day trial a whirl and knew they'd have my card details by the time i'd escaped the collapsing tunnels beneath the tavern.

    so, there is nothing wrong with a risk vs reward style of game balance. that is not to say it is the right way, or the best way, or the only way, but it is a perfectly valid way to balance a game. some players prefer it and will flock to games like DDO and eve-online, other gamers are looking for something else and will prefer silkroad or all sorts of other types of games.

    none of it is moronic, it's just a different type of game. you make a very valid point about a common style of game balance in single player games, harder settings and less loot. the point i object to is neither type of balance is right or wrong, smart or stupid, they are just different ways to balance a game.
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  19. #799
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    Quote Originally Posted by Worldcrafter View Post
    Since they are no longer labeled "Epic Tokens," and it seems that epic levels are wanted for the promotion of CoV, how receptive would the devs be to the idea for extending token fragments to being dropped in lower level quests? Such as, token fragments begin to drop on Lv 18 or even Lv 17 quests. Full tokens could still be exclusive to Lv 20 quests. At 21+, CoVs start dropping.

    And if you really wanted to make players happy, you could also allow CoV to be downgraded into tokens, perhaps at the Altar of Epic Rituals. I think that would be another measure to make people more receptive to being BtC; you can horde them on a character for the big epic TR and rewards, or you can break a couple to pass around for account-bound heroic TRs.
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  20. #800
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Here's some things that are up for discussion here at Turbine. We're trying to come up with more public proposals Soon(tm).

    * Binding of Commendations of Valor
    * Binding of Hearts of Wood (if these are BtA and the Commendations are BtC, you can still farm with an alternate character. And we can still re-use Commendations of Valor in the future for other items that we feel should be BtC, or use for upgrading BtC loot, instead of adding an additional new ingredient type in the future and an additional way to get that new ingredient. This is not a done deal in any case, as this also means you cannot combine ingredients from alternate characters.)
    * Additional ways to earn Commendations of Valor besides Sagas, for U20.
    * Whether or not Sagas earn Commendations of Valor at all.
    * Whether or not the methods for earning Heroic True Hearts of Wood are the same as the methods for earning Epic Hearts of Wood or Iconic True Hearts of Wood.
    * Whether or not we phase out Tokens of the Twelve at any point.
    * Whether or not we phase out trading in Tokens of the Twelve for Heroic True Hearts of Wood at any point (probably not).
    * What content you can use to earn various Hearts of Wood.


    We're also trying to make sure that today's Lamannia release showing off other aspects of Reincarnation goes smoothly and that you guys have what you need in order to give good feedback.
    I am happy that you're (re)considering all these points. I'm looking forward to seeing your proposals in the hopefully near future.
    It's definitely an N-word.

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