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  1. #701
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PNellesen View Post
    I'd be prepared for a pretty long stay if I were you guys.

    (And by "pretty long" I mean "permanent". I seriously doubt anything substantial is going to change. I would LOVE to be wrong though.)
    That's what I figured. Mabar will not entice me. What would get me off the bridge probably is the bind status. I want to play, but that decision is the biggest deciding factor for me.

  2. #702
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    DDO devs have finally come to ask us about feedback on one of the most relevant changes of U20. We've been asking Turbine for better communication for a long time. Let's stick to the topic please. We can create new threads on random loot and adventure packs anytime.

  3. #703
    Developer Vargouille's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drwaz99 View Post
    I'm also starting to wonder if they are really taking this seriously. I am starting to believe they think it's some sort of minor misunderstanding, which if so, they might be in for a rather large shock.
    We're not knee-jerk reacting without spending evaluating your feedback and spending real time on this. We don't have announcements right now because we're still meeting about it. The continued (constructive) feedback continues to help, especially when it's specific to the issues at hand, and answers the "why" more than the "how". That's sometimes hard to get, but it shows up when there's enough volume of feedback -- which we have!

    I've personally discussed this in at least three or four different meetings today, not counting the dozen or so discussions in hallways, at someone's desks, or via digital communications. Gets hard to keep count after a while.

    And given the posting mistakes I've personally already made (and corrected), I know I'd like to be sure of what's what before potentially misleading or misinforming anyone. There's been enough of that.

  4. #704
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiliconScout View Post
    I wonder why you can't just tie Heroic TR into Favor.

    say 3000 or 3500 favor level get a free Heroic Heart and at the same time drop their price to around 500 TP.

    The people who play through a life are going to be in that range generally especially if they aren't out there farming a handful of quests so little to no extra grind for them them to TR.

    The stoners who are zerging the lives are going to be NOWHERE near that when they hit 20 so they either have to grind out a lot of quests they paid about $50 to skip having to run OR they will have to buy one. The core here is that Heroic TR's don't use ANY currency to purchase in game.

    At $15 that makes a life cost about $65 and for many that simply might be too much to ask but at a mere 10% more I am thinking a great many will indeed bite on that.

    Leave the Iconic and Epic fairly where it is now (though adjust the pricing PLEASE) and even leave them BTC and I think you are OK.
    Another great idea. I'm sure they thought of using Favor but it doesn't get them as much money.

  5. #705
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    We're not knee-jerk reacting without spending evaluating your feedback and spending real time on this. We don't have announcements right now because we're still meeting about it. The continued (constructive) feedback continues to help, especially when it's specific to the issues at hand, and answers the "why" more than the "how". That's sometimes hard to get, but it shows up when there's enough volume of feedback -- which we have!

    I've personally discussed this in at least three or four different meetings today, not counting the dozen or so discussions in hallways, at someone's desks, or via digital communications. Gets hard to keep count after a while.

    And given the posting mistakes I've personally already made (and corrected), I know I'd like to be sure of what's what before potentially misleading or misinforming anyone. There's been enough of that.
    Well thanks for the update. I think people are looking more for these than concrete answers. Silence tells us nothing. This tells us a lot. And not to throw more on your plate, Saga's are bugged - at least the heroic GH one. I filled out a bug report but I hit a concrete wall otherwise:

    Here's the details:

    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...gas-are-bugged

  6. #706
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    We're not knee-jerk reacting without spending evaluating your feedback and spending real time on this. We don't have announcements right now because we're still meeting about it. The continued (constructive) feedback continues to help, especially when it's specific to the issues at hand, and answers the "why" more than the "how". That's sometimes hard to get, but it shows up when there's enough volume of feedback -- which we have!

    I've personally discussed this in at least three or four different meetings today, not counting the dozen or so discussions in hallways, at someone's desks, or via digital communications. Gets hard to keep count after a while.

    And given the posting mistakes I've personally already made (and corrected), I know I'd like to be sure of what's what before potentially misleading or misinforming anyone. There's been enough of that.
    thanks for the update. regarding the feedback, and yes i'm quite aware this request will delay your work, would it be possible for you or one of the team to write up the points you have gathered from our feedback?

    showing us you've heard the points we have made should help a lot with the waiting to hear your solution.

    i am also aware that no matter how carefully you word such a post it will get corrected 100 times over, but hey, that just helps to focus the feedback even more. i'm also aware that just because you know the points we are making that doesn't mean your solution will cover all of them.

    while i appreciate the responses we have had so far some of them have left us worried that you've not heard the full body of our complaint.

    it might seem silly and trivial, but when there is a disconnection in communication such exercises can really help ensure both parties understand each other.

    also, feel free to turn the sit in protest into a PR stunt, we could all do with the advertising!
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  7. #707
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRobai View Post
    1. Commendations of Valor must be BtA
    2. Commendations of Valor should also drop in any EE
    3. Greater tokens of twelve should be used for Heroic Heart of Wood (for example, 10 Tokens of twelve + 10 Greater tokens of twelve, it will encourage grouping and keep in mind that raids have timer)
    Your first point is fine. Your second point only makes the gap between the best players and the average players even bigger. Only the best players play Epic Elite. Giving more comms only to them makes the gap even bigger. The third point is terrible. The complaint is that we don't want to have to farm epic content for a month just to heroic TR, so requiring 10 greater tokens that drop only from epic level raids (which have 3 day timers) makes the problem even worse. I know you are looking at this from the perspective of someone that has a high level alt that does all the work for his TR, but considering the backlash from the BtC idea you must be able to see where I am coming from. For a person that plays the game on one character anything that makes us do more time consuming epic content in order to do a heroic TR does the same thing to me that making comms BtC does to you.

    The suggestions people have given to give heroic TR comms in heroic content are good and on the right track. The ideas to make us run epic raids and epic elite content (on level 20 characters since we don't all use max level alts with perfect gear to do the work for us) only make the problem significantly worse.
    Everyone who is not in the true definition of "hardcore" is looked down on as a "casual", unwilling or incapable of understanding the true brilliance of having twelve-year-olds insult you while they are teabagging your virtual corpse. - Christian Ward columnist for The Escapist

  8. #708
    Community Member Shmuel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by faydingsun View Post
    There are many great ideas on these forums to improve DDO. However that is not really the main goal of Turbine, it is a business after all so lets talk profits.

    There are pushy ways to do business which may compel customers to make purchases but leave a negative impact on them. DDO is heading in that direction. It is really unnecessary as you have here a wonderful system already in place which could practically sell itself and become a much more popular game. Would you rather not have players spending money in excitement for what they are getting then bitterness for what they have to get?

    There are many features we have been begging to buy. Monster Manuals, more cosmetics, more storage, reagent bags, races, classes, housing, sex change, quests, RAIDS. These are just a few off the top of my head. If you would sell us what we want you wouldn't have to trick us into buying what we don't.

    DDO is one of the most unique and complex games I have played. The character creation system alone is the main draw for many people. Sadly most gamers have never heard of this game. Why do you not (modestly) advertise? Something simple and cheap, marketing yourself as the complex mmo or the most customizable or unique or action based combat. Any of these marketing points would be a big draw for people looking for such a game. Flaunt the strengths DDO has. There is a real niche market there for this type of game and DDO is the only place to find it.

    Stimulate the sales of adventure packs;

    While Shadowfell Conspiracy is very beautiful with great artwork and voice acting it is sadly not enough.
    Most People buy packs for 2 reasons, loot and xp. Both of witch cost you NOTHING to increase. Why don't you?

    What makes Adventure packs desirable;

    XP and Loot

    There is little to say about xp other than it should be increased if you want to make your adventure packs more enticing. If the new packs had something like von3 you would find Eveningstar much less of a ghost town.

    Loot and how it affects the sales of adventure packs;


    You have utterly destroyed the once brilliant and esteemed random loot system for no apparent reason. Not only is getting the same 4 suffixes a giant step backwards from what we knew and loved, the auction house is flooded with cheap random items that outclass most of the highest level named items. There goes any incentive to buy adventures for loot. Poor XP and meager loot have successfully rendered your new shiny expansion insignificant and undesirable regardless of it's quality.

    Revert random loot to how it used to be when MOTU launched. It was perfect. We had a plethora of unique and exciting effects, we had composed weapon affixes, we had clickies. It was fun, but now loot is boring and therefor the game is boring. Everything we loot now is the same; retributive, doublestrike, ghostbane, deadly or accuracy. We have yet to hear any dev comment as to why you would butcher such a core aspect of this game. Revert random loot and scale it to be slightly less powerful then named loot of the same level. You will once again incentivise people to buy adventures for the sexy named loot. That is one of the biggest draws to mmos, I cannot stress that enough. People love named loot in these games.

    Regarding the old packs, they were once the endgame epics. People would stay at 20, raid and farm for epic ingredients and all was wonderful. With the increase in level cap, 20 is nothing more than a pit stop. Those once sought after epic named items are nothing more then level 20 suboptimal named loot. Why do we still need to spend a year grinding for these ingredients when we are getting better random loot, regardless of how boring it is? If the old epic items dropped completed (like every other named item) it would add some value to these old packs. Another thing that made those packs attractive is the ability to work towards your reincarnation which is also being removed, further decreasing their value.

    Reincarnation

    A very tricky feature to quantify. On one hand its current popularity is mainly due to the lack of an endgame, on the other it is ingenious, innovative and unique to DDO. Actually one of the most brilliant features in the genre.

    Hearts of wood however remind me of sigils. They were removed because they were a roadblock to player retention. They created a false obstacle in front of players limiting the amount of time they could spend in the game. Hearts are now serving this purpose.

    Since the current loot mess has rendered raids quite pointless and the high level quests offering very little, there is nothing else to do at endgame currently which is only exacerbating the importance of reincarnating.
    Anything done to make the reincarnation process more difficult is going to limit the amount of time players remain customers.

    Instead you have chosen to monetize this feature with a very unpopular saga system. A system designed to sell not only hearts but adventure packs in a very underhanded manner. The community knows this, and the disdain is going to drive even more away. If the above insights about adventure packs were implemented The sales of all adventures would rise and there would be no cause to create such an unpopular system, the players would not hold resentment but respect and elation.
    This is so clearly correct and totally obvious. Why is this not what is being done instead of the idiotic, transparent, and pointless money grab that is being implemented?
    Shmuel Xadin Xadins Errand Mohnster Yitzhak

  9. #709
    Bwest Fwiends Memnir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    We're not knee-jerk reacting without spending evaluating your feedback and spending real time on this. We don't have announcements right now because we're still meeting about it. The continued (constructive) feedback continues to help, especially when it's specific to the issues at hand, and answers the "why" more than the "how". That's sometimes hard to get, but it shows up when there's enough volume of feedback -- which we have!

    I've personally discussed this in at least three or four different meetings today, not counting the dozen or so discussions in hallways, at someone's desks, or via digital communications. Gets hard to keep count after a while.

    And given the posting mistakes I've personally already made (and corrected), I know I'd like to be sure of what's what before potentially misleading or misinforming anyone. There's been enough of that.
    Thank you for the reply, Vargoille. And I appreciate the not saying anything before it's ready to be said. Believe it or not, even the act of communicating that you are not yet ready to communicate is better then saying nothing.


    I will still remain on the Bridge in the meantime, but I look forward to hearing what you have to say - and I'm glad our opinions are being considered. If I can be of any help, please drop me a PM or email. Not that I imagine that will be taken up upon - but the offer is there.
    “Too much of anything is bad, but too much good whiskey is barely enough.” ~ Mark Twain

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  10. #710
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    We're not knee-jerk reacting without spending evaluating your feedback and spending real time on this. We don't have announcements right now because we're still meeting about it. The continued (constructive) feedback continues to help, especially when it's specific to the issues at hand, and answers the "why" more than the "how". That's sometimes hard to get, but it shows up when there's enough volume of feedback -- which we have!

    I've personally discussed this in at least three or four different meetings today, not counting the dozen or so discussions in hallways, at someone's desks, or via digital communications. Gets hard to keep count after a while.

    And given the posting mistakes I've personally already made (and corrected), I know I'd like to be sure of what's what before potentially misleading or misinforming anyone. There's been enough of that.

    These things wouldn't happen if

    a) you guys really played the game (I mean really play, with a real toon, not a twinked-out invulnerable toon in god mode)
    b) you guys would float ideas to the player base BEFORE you wrote a single line of code. As it stands right now, once you've invested resources (money) in an update its too late to back out.

  11. #711
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    Quote Originally Posted by rayworks View Post
    These things wouldn't happen if

    a) you guys really played the game (I mean really play, with a real toon, not a twinked-out invulnerable toon in god mode)
    b) you guys would float ideas to the player base BEFORE you wrote a single line of code. As it stands right now, once you've invested resources (money) in an update its too late to back out.
    a) some devs do play the game, with real characters not hacked ones. however, i am under the impression they have no hard core power gamers among them, cos well, those are few and far between and they only have a small sample of humans working for them.

    b) that's just really not practical. sad really as it's something i feel is important when i'm planning new software, but then i get to meet my clients face to face and have a good natter with them. trying to do the same with an MMO just isn't practical on any level
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  12. #712
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    We're not knee-jerk reacting without spending evaluating your feedback and spending real time on this. We don't have announcements right now because we're still meeting about it. The continued (constructive) feedback continues to help, especially when it's specific to the issues at hand, and answers the "why" more than the "how". That's sometimes hard to get, but it shows up when there's enough volume of feedback -- which we have!

    I've personally discussed this in at least three or four different meetings today, not counting the dozen or so discussions in hallways, at someone's desks, or via digital communications. Gets hard to keep count after a while.

    And given the posting mistakes I've personally already made (and corrected), I know I'd like to be sure of what's what before potentially misleading or misinforming anyone. There's been enough of that.
    One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet explicitly: If you're thinking of the new widget as a currency, please factor in an end-game relevant consumable so we're not back here next year having the same "Well fudge, market's flooded again, gotta come up with a new one now" problem. After all, even considering the opportunity-cost for skill tomes, exp, ect. at some point, there'll be quite a few players with no desire for more XP, and fully kitted out with all skills relevant to them.

    Off the top of my head, I'm thinking things like: sp pots, heal potion stacks, non-eternal spell staves, the absolute lowest version of rez cake, ect. But I'm sure ya'll could cook up more suitable set given time.
    Last edited by Scraap; 10-23-2013 at 10:17 PM.

  13. #713
    Community Member Havok.cry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rayworks View Post
    These things wouldn't happen if

    a) you guys really played the game (I mean really play, with a real toon, not a twinked-out invulnerable toon in god mode)
    Not that I like defending turbine or the devs, but one of them told me that a perk of there job was that their regular account got store items essentially free. I don't think their regular accounts are in god mode. Just infinite pots and cakes is all.

    I have a twinked out toon (more than one), so why shouldn't they? That part of your complaint makes no sense at all.
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  14. #714
    Community Member Hendrik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok.cry View Post
    Not that I like defending turbine or the devs, but one of them told me that a perk of there job was that their regular account got store items essentially free. I don't think their regular accounts are in god mode. Just infinite pots and cakes is all.

    I have a twinked out toon (more than one), so why shouldn't they? That part of your complaint makes no sense at all.

    As do 90% of them posted, he is just keeping with the herd.

    Quote Originally Posted by hsinclair
    I heard the devs hate all wizards, bards, clerics, fighters, and fuzzy bunnies and only want us to play halfling barbarian/paladin shuriken specialists!

    It's totally true, I have a reliable source. You better reroll now.
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  15. #715
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    We're not knee-jerk reacting without spending evaluating your feedback and spending real time on this. We don't have announcements right now because we're still meeting about it. The continued (constructive) feedback continues to help, especially when it's specific to the issues at hand, and answers the "why" more than the "how". That's sometimes hard to get, but it shows up when there's enough volume of feedback -- which we have!

    I've personally discussed this in at least three or four different meetings today, not counting the dozen or so discussions in hallways, at someone's desks, or via digital communications. Gets hard to keep count after a while.

    And given the posting mistakes I've personally already made (and corrected), I know I'd like to be sure of what's what before potentially misleading or misinforming anyone. There's been enough of that.
    Coward ;-)

    Seriously, thanks for the update.
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  16. #716
    Uber Uber Completionist
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReaperAlexEU View Post
    b) that's just really not practical. sad really as it's something i feel is important when i'm planning new software, but then i get to meet my clients face to face and have a good natter with them. trying to do the same with an MMO just isn't practical on any level
    Player council.
    Mournlands.

    One of these should be providing this feedback already.

  17. #717
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    Player council.
    I wasn't aware they had one of these for DDO. I know they do for LOTRO.

  18. #718
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    I am still against the idea of phasing out the Tokens of the Twelve, even if such plans are postponed to a later date. With the current knowledge I have, it doesn't make sense to me to remove a system that is currently in place that functions. From what has been discussed in this thread, I do not see that the the proposed CoV system remedies the Power Gamer vs. Casual Gamer issue; instead, I see it only widening the gap. I welcome more input from the Devs, even if it is as simple as "There are, indeed, additional reasons that we can't reveal at this point in time." While such an answer would be disappointing, it would help me be a little more receptive to the idea the system needs to change.

    In my opinion, to properly address the PG vs CG goal, the system would have to be something that could be irrelevant of skill. That would have to be something performed on a timer, akin to the free Daily Tokens for challenges. For example, when a player reaches level X, they can go collect Y CoV from a particular NPC once a day. This whole thing seems counter-productive however, considering the planned reduction in time between TRs.

    Now, despite my reservations toward the CoV system, I would like to offer a suggestion that may ease some of the issues involved. It has already been suggested that CoV be dropped in all epic quests, and that sagas can drop additional ones upon completion. This idea in itself is good, because it does not restrict players to saga-only quests; it also gives an encouraging nudge toward running sagas without making it a forceful shove - it feels like a bonus instead of a necessity.

    Expanding upon that idea, I would like to present the thought of CoV having a chance to drop in the end chest of level 15 quests, and increasing the chance as one continues toward Lv 20, additionally, allow Heroic Sagas offering a definite chance of dropping some CoV as well. I believe that this would allow players the opportunity to build up a small foundation as they level naturally, which reduces grind in Epic content.

    The following is my initial proposal for drop rates based on level for any quest of the appropriate level.

    - Level 15 - Normal 0% chance, Hard 0.5% chance, Elite 1% chance.
    - Level 16 - Normal 0.5% chance, Hard 1% chance, Elite 2% chance.
    - Level 17 - Normal 1% chance, Hard 2% chance, Elite 3% chance.
    - Level 18 - Normal 2% chance, Hard 3% chance, Elite 10% chance.
    - Level 19 - Normal 3% chance, Hard 10% chance, Elite 50% chance.
    - Level 20 - Normal 5% chance, Hard 30% chance, Elite 100% chance

    Then simply have 21+ quests have 100% CoV drops. I welcome any suggestions or ideas for adjusting the drop rates until they feel more comfortable for everyone.
    Anything can be explained by drunken wizards.

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  19. #719
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drwaz99 View Post
    I wasn't aware they had one of these for DDO. I know they do for LOTRO.
    They don't. We are suggesting they should have one for DDO as well, or like EVE does. *Just saying* *IMO* *YMMW*. Cheers! :P! ! !
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  20. #720
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    Quote Originally Posted by Worldcrafter View Post
    That would have to be something performed on a timer, akin to the free Daily Tokens for challenges. For example, when a player reaches level X, they can go collect Y CoV from a particular NPC once a day. This whole thing seems counter-productive however, considering the planned reduction in time between TRs.
    This isn't aimed at you specifically Worldcrafter, your post is just an easy to spot one that mentions the idea of a timer.

    There have been a few who have suggested something along these lines and they seem to be forgetting something rather important.

    Time.

    I have the same issue with the new mechanic for Sigils in Mabar due at the end of the week ish.

    After two years of being unemployed, I finally have a job again (yey), unfortunately it means that I'm going to be working through most of Mabar (boo).

    Under the old system I could make up for lost time with any days I have off.

    Under the new system I can't. If I can't log in each day and run Mabar (Which I can't) then I am simply barred from participating in it fully.

    Adding a Timer to the ability to gain the currency needed to buy Hearts (I still can't see any reason why we need a new one btw, when all that is needed is a name change from "Tokens of the Twelve" to "Epic Dungeon Tokens" and have the Tokens drop in all Epic Content), will simply create the same problem. Those who can log in every day will simply be miles ahead of those who can't, and while effort should certainly be rewarded, the Timer idea wouldn't do that, it would simply prevent those with limited time from participating fully.

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