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  1. #561
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    Default Problem I havent saw mentioned.

    Many people here are - rightfully - stating that running all the sagas once on Epic Hard will let said character TR with your current proposition. (which I found awfull btw)

    BUT THERE IS A PROBLEM I HAVENT SAW MENTIONED YET.

    Most of the sagas include high level content (running EH What goes Up on level 21 - 22 will be punch in stomach) and I am pretty sure, that last time I hit level 20 and stepped into High Road, I was NOT able to open Epic elite difficulty and possibly not even Epic Hard difficulty becase of the min level lock Turbine introduced in last months.

    If the point of sagas is to promote variability of gameplay (which I dont rly believe), then this is a very bad decision, as those not wanting to dwell in epic content will have to run epic sagas in exact order to be capable of opening them.

  2. #562
    Community Member lyrecono's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oradafu View Post
    And I agree that the changes need to be applied for Update 20. And they need to be retroactive. The Shadowfell "expansion" needs to be overhauled because it is such a poor product for its price. Additionally, with the future removal of Epic Tokens, the House C Challenges need an overhaul also in both worthwhile loot to replace the removal of the only useful item in the pack, but also level and gear upgrades, along with Epic mats trade-ins for the Epic gear.
    Shadowfell and to a lesser extend Stormhorns loot need an overhaul (exp too but that's an another thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by Aletys View Post
    While I appreciate that you are communicating better, you still clearly do not get it. Many of us DON'T LIKE THE SAGAS!!! We don't want to be forced to run them just because some dev thinks it's a nifty idea.

    Sagas have too many quests that are not fun to run. Perhaps rather than forcing us to play quests that we hate to run, you should use one of the other methods suggested by players. Let us run the stuff we want to run, rather than trying to force us to run stuff we don't like. Not everyone is going to like the same things, so give us some options. And if people are not running some quests, perhaps that should tell the devs that they have done something wrong. The solution to that is not to force players to play quests they don't like, but to fix the problems. A lot of the new content is frankly not very interesting, the loot is often not very good, and some of the quests are a miserable grind. Perhaps if some of those quests that are not getting played had better loot, and were not so miserable, people might actually run them more often.

    Further, the sagas appear to require that you purchase paks in order to run them. For people on a budget, that is a problem. So while they might buy one or two, grinding those repetitively is going to get old really fast.

    My suggestions are as follows:

    1. Eliminate the saga requirement. They were originally introduced as something "extra" to add something to the game, but now you're making them mandatory. If quests are so bad that you need to force players to play them, then you're doing something very wrong.

    2. If you are determined to use commendations instead of tokens of the twelve for getting TR hearts, then don't tie them to sagas. Have them drop from chests & end rewards. That will allow players to play what they like, not force them to run stuff they don't want to play. And if players want to run one or two quests repeatedly to get their commendations, let them. Just because that's not your "vision", that doesn't make it invalid. Some quests are simply easier/less painful to run than others. If all I'm aiming for is a heart so I can TR, why force me to play other stuff I'm not interested in?

    3. Make the commendations BtA, rather than BtC. Tokens are BtA, why should commendations be different? I personally am getting very tired of the amount of BtC stuff I'm seeing, as it means endless grinding for every toon and creates inventory issues. Further, most of the folks I play with don't want to run the epic stuff. They have maybe one toon (if any) that they keep at an epic level, but TR the rest when they hit 20, or shortly after, once they have enough tokens.

    4. Give players who have earned Tokens of the Twelve a mechanism to exchange their existing tokens for an equivalent no. of commendations (20 tokens currently for a heart, so simply ratio it). That way players won't feel gypped that they've worked hard for a bunch of tokens to buy hearts with, and now they won't be able use them for that. Sure, we can use them for augments, but frankly, that's not why most of us are earning them. We have other ways to get augments.

    5. Instead of spending all this effort on something your player base almost universally hates, spend some time fixing the serious bugs in the game, and put this new stuff to the side untill the bugs are actually fixed. Just one example: Right now the Arcane Archer capstone is completely broken. It's been well documented (both on the forums & through bug reports). If you take it, you lose your arrow imbues. I had to reset everything so as to remove it, since it made my AA completely useless in a fight. And, oh, the AA bow enhancements are completely broken as well. Both have been broken since U18 came out. Shouldn't stuff like that get fixed before you start playing with new systems? We're coming up on Update 20 and it's still not fixed? In my world, people would be fired for that type of nonsense.

    6. Since none of the devs seem to have a clue as to why the player base is so upset, I'd like to suggest that you have a few devs run the sagas the way a player would have to, sufficient sagas to get a TR heart. Then make the devs repeat that exercise 5 or 6 times (pretty typical no. of active toons for many players), and see what it's like to have to play what you're proposing. And, they should not do it in a development environment where they can take shortcuts, but in an actual live game where they have to grind through the sagas repetitively just as real players would have to. You might find out why we're so upset.

    Finally, it is very clear from your comments that the Turbine devs are bound and determined to ram this change down players throats. That is not only wrong, but very poor business. Remember the idea of making customers happy? Your players are your customers. Businesses that alienate their customers tend not to last very long.

    If I have to run sagas on every single toon, just to TR, I'm going to very quickly want to throw my monitor at someone. Which means I won't be playing DDO anymore once my existing TR hearts run out. I had planned to shift to an annual VIP from my quarterly VIP at the next renewal, but, well, that won't be happening now, as I plan to leave my options open. Frankly you have generated a lot of ill will and distrust among your player base, and it will take a lot to make up for that.
    Fix stuff that's broken, don't try to fix stuff that isn't broken
    If you want to sell more content, try making it more fun to play them, no more inflated mob hp/stats, better loot, far better exp (then that what you're suggesting elsewhere) and fix these for all the content in U14-U19.
    Forcing us to run stuff we don't like will only make us leave, it's already becoming a ghost town, i wonder sometimes, do you Dev guys actually play DDO? the vid you made with Massively suggest you don't.
    Many errors during the vid suggest you don't.
    Maybe we should contact them and give them the account info of one of our lv 28 barbs and see if he still likes it in EE stormhorns pug XD (joking)



    Quote Originally Posted by Rynojedi View Post
    Long time lurker, first time poster.
    I have been VIP for almost three years. I have a completionist, and a few other TR project characters.
    I have all content. Many times, I straight out bought the True Heart to fast track my completionist. I have
    bought many an xp pot, and have considered the otto's boxes, but have never bought them, but I enjoy
    having the option there. I have bought many other incidentals. This is just to let you, devs of DDO, know
    what type of player you have here.
    Due to financial restraints, I let my VIP sub expire about one month ago, but was planning on re-subbing
    this week. With the current discussion about comms of valor, I am seriously considering looking elsewhere
    for my gaming pleasure.
    I enjoy the OPTION to run sagas for special rewards. Sagas are a great way to push sales of packs and
    get players to run a wider variety of content rather than just what is fastest xp/min ratio. BUT, if the current
    system is implemented, please make the CoVs an additional reward for completing a saga (i.e.2-5 in each
    end reward or end chest, and 30-80 for completing the saga), in addition to the current choices of
    xp/renown/skill tomes. Oh, yes, and BtA. Why do you care which one of my characters gets the rewards?
    They are all played by the same paying customer.
    I am HAPPY to pay you, Turbine, for developing new content and for perks/conveniences thru the DDO store.
    BUT, let me choose what I spend it on. I will most likely buy an epic reincarnitaion on my completionist the day
    it hits the stores IF and ONLY if it is a reasonable cost and a very good epic past life feat. If you make it 40 bucks
    (or 600 hours of grinding)and a +1 to hit (or +1 ac, etc etc), say goodbye to my money.

    I have read much of this thread, and most all points have been covered, so I won't repeat them. I agree with most
    of the other posters when they imply that your money maker is not in sellling Hearts, its in the xp pots/ottos/tomes etc.
    If you try to make Hearts your main Cash cow, DDO will go the way of Ozymandias...
    The game keeps bleeding players due to these changes, is this being noticed turbine?

    Quote Originally Posted by faydingsun View Post
    There are many great ideas on these forums to improve DDO. However that is not really the main goal of Turbine, it is a business after all so lets talk profits.

    There are pushy ways to do business which may compel customers to make purchases but leave a negative impact on them. DDO is heading in that direction. It is really unnecessary as you have here a wonderful system already in place which could practically sell itself and become a much more popular game. Would you rather not have players spending money in excitement for what they are getting then bitterness for what they have to get?

    There are many features we have been begging to buy. Monster Manuals, more cosmetics, more storage, reagent bags, races, classes, housing, sex change, quests, RAIDS. These are just a few off the top of my head. If you would sell us what we want you wouldn't have to trick us into buying what we don't.

    DDO is one of the most unique and complex games I have played. The character creation system alone is the main draw for many people. Sadly most gamers have never heard of this game. Why do you not (modestly) advertise? Something simple and cheap, marketing yourself as the complex mmo or the most customizable or unique or action based combat. Any of these marketing points would be a big draw for people looking for such a game. Flaunt the strengths DDO has. There is a real niche market there for this type of game and DDO is the only place to find it.

    Stimulate the sales of adventure packs;


    While Shadowfell Conspiracy is very beautiful with great artwork and voice acting it is sadly not enough.
    Most People buy packs for 2 reasons, loot and xp. Both of witch cost you NOTHING to increase. Why don't you?

    What makes Adventure packs desirable;

    XP and Loot

    There is little to say about xp other than it should be increased if you want to make your adventure packs more enticing. If the new packs had something like von3 you would find Eveningstar much less of a ghost town.

    Loot and how it affects the sales of adventure packs;


    You have utterly destroyed the once brilliant and esteemed random loot system for no apparent reason. Not only is getting the same 4 suffixes a giant step backwards from what we knew and loved, the auction house is flooded with cheap random items that outclass most of the highest level named items. There goes any incentive to buy adventures for loot. Poor XP and meager loot have successfully rendered your new shiny expansion insignificant and undesirable regardless of it's quality.

    Revert random loot to how it used to be when MOTU launched. It was perfect. We had a plethora of unique and exciting effects, we had composed weapon affixes, we had clickies. It was fun, but now loot is boring and therefor the game is boring. Everything we loot now is the same; retributive, doublestrike, ghostbane, deadly or accuracy. We have yet to hear any dev comment as to why you would butcher such a core aspect of this game. Revert random loot and scale it to be slightly less powerful then named loot of the same level. You will once again incentivise people to buy adventures for the sexy named loot. That is one of the biggest draws to mmos, I cannot stress that enough. People love named loot in these games.

    Regarding the old packs, they were once the endgame epics. People would stay at 20, raid and farm for epic ingredients and all was wonderful. With the increase in level cap, 20 is nothing more than a pit stop. Those once sought after epic named items are nothing more then level 20 suboptimal named loot. Why do we still need to spend a year grinding for these ingredients when we are getting better random loot, regardless of how boring it is? If the old epic items dropped completed (like every other named item) it would add some value to these old packs. Another thing that made those packs attractive is the ability to work towards your reincarnation which is also being removed, further decreasing their value.

    Reincarnation

    A very tricky feature to quantify. On one hand its current popularity is mainly due to the lack of an endgame, on the other it is ingenious, innovative and unique to DDO. Actually one of the most brilliant features in the genre.

    Hearts of wood however remind me of sigils. They were removed because they were a roadblock to player retention. They created a false obstacle in front of players limiting the amount of time they could spend in the game. Hearts are now serving this purpose.

    Since the current loot mess has rendered raids quite pointless and the high level quests offering very little, there is nothing else to do at endgame currently which is only exacerbating the importance of reincarnating.
    Anything done to make the reincarnation process more difficult is going to limit the amount of time players remain customers.

    Instead you have chosen to monetize this feature with a very unpopular saga system. A system designed to sell not only hearts but adventure packs in a very underhanded manner. The community knows this, and the disdain is going to drive even more away. If the above insights about adventure packs were implemented The sales of all adventures would rise and there would be no cause to create such an unpopular system, the players would not hold resentment but respect and elation.

    awesome post fayding sun!

    No matter the pretty looks, it's content that matters.
    but the forgotten realms content resembles a maneki neko statue to a westener, pretty but hollow, lacking in substance.
    We don't like to be forced to run saga's!

    Last edited by lyrecono; 10-23-2013 at 12:17 AM. Reason: forgot something

  3. #563
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    Arrow That is still far too much

    Quote Originally Posted by Satyriasys View Post
    Please aim for nothing more than...

    2 EE saga = 1 TR (I guess it's called HR now)
    3 EH sagas = 1HR
    4 EN sagas = 1HR

    I couldn't stand much more of a grind and I'm not going to buy hearts at the ridiculous prices they're at.

    Although I would love BTA it is secondary to me than a tedious grind.
    Also, ad more sagas (quickly)
    That is still far to much. I can imagine a character going for a TR earning them by doing maximum of 1 EPIC saga if they have to do it themselves, and that is on EH at maximum, because they are just not built and geared to be able to do a whole saga on EE, let alone 2-3. I think heroic TR should be earnable during higher heroics and maybe up to lvl 21 by playing if they are to be BtC

    I think that either HoW bought with CoValor or the Comms themselves have to be BtA if they come only from sagas. A character built for a TR will never be able to finish 2 whole sagas on EE (he would have to get up to lvl 24 quests to do them, a complete waste of time for that character).

  4. #564
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    Quote Originally Posted by ironegrip View Post
    I've prowled the forums for a while, but rarely post, but I thought I'd shed some light on this mechanic given the new updates on it. I've done some basic math, and given the above post, and using epic GH as a baseline (because 10 quests is easy to calculate), we can get some preliminary numbers.

    given that it should be 3 comms per quest for Ehard sagas, which amounts to about 30 comms per run of Ehard GH. Now, given that we're looking at about 250 comms for a heroic heart, we need to run the whole saga 8.3333 times... round up to 9. 9 completions of Ehard Gianthold is required for one Heroic heart of wood.

    snip

    In truth, we all know that first run of each of these quests nets us anywhere between 40-60k+ xp at a bare minimum. I'll leave the final calculations to someone else, but I modestly estimate that you would be close to, if not far past lv 25 before you can earn one heart for reincarnation.

    TLR ... you'll be far past heroic cap before you have your heart.
    In truth, the quests are lvl 24 on normal, so to do them on EHard you would have to be a minium of Lvl 23 to do them anyway, right? Meaning that you first have to get another million+ XP before you can even play them

  5. #565
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    Quote Originally Posted by Systern View Post




    We're not misinformed.
    If we lack understanding, it's despite multiple responses from yourself, Tolero, Cordovan, Squeak, and Glin; TURBINE HAS NOT SET ANY OTHER EXPECTATION.

    Glin's message in this thread said that the price was not final, he never said that the rate wasn't final either.

    The insinuation is that I've been misinforming players, since I'm the one that bothered to do the research and communicate it to the community. If you read my post history, I've been very fair about letting people know that Squeak was unsure if these are final values or not. Unlike the enhancement previews, we haven't been getting any expectations set by Glin, Rowan, or Fooz about what's coming, how far along, and what the intent it.


    If you don't tell us otherwise, what we know is what we're presented.
    Perhaps the "upgrade to Hard" option does not currently work? That would explain how we got from about 3 Comms/quest on EH to 16/17 for the whole saga. Maybe that 16/17 is what it would earn you on Normal? Not that it makes the numbers much better (its still over 80 quests to do even provided you do it on EH)

  6. #566
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nascoe View Post
    In truth, the quests are lvl 24 on normal, so to do them on EHard you would have to be a minium of Lvl 23 to do them anyway, right? Meaning that you first have to get another million+ XP before you can even play them
    Not exactly.

    You need to be (base level -2) to actually get the quest from the quest giver. The quest can be shared to you by a party member to bypass this limitation.

    However to actually get into the quest, you can't be more than 4 levels below the quest level. I faced this issue yesterday when I PUGed with a level 23 character for Stormhorns. He could not enter the quests when I set them on EH, but could join EN fine.

    So, to get the quest, level -2 (level 25 for Storm Horns). To play the quest, level -4 from the quest modified level (23 to play EN, 24 EH, and 25 EE for Storm Horns).

    This means you CAN'T earn True Elite saga rewards in two sagas until you are at least level 25. Enjoy.
    Main: Amossa d'Cannith, Sarlona, casually trying Completionist [<o>]

    Almost-never-played-alts: Arquera - Chapolin - Fabber - Herweg - Mecanico - Tenma

    I want DDO to be a better game. Those are my personal suggestions on: Ammunition, Archmage, Combat Stances, Deities, Dispel Magic, Epic Destiny Map, Fast Healing, Favor, Favored Enemy, Half-elf Enhancements, Monk Stances, Past Life, Potency, Potions, Ranger Spells, Summons, Tiered Loot.

  7. #567
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    Default Thanks Deadlock for the numbers, wow, its a lot of playtime

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    Ah okay, this makes sense now. So basically if you get 3 commendations per quest per saga on Epic Hard, then this means that based on the details of which quests fit into which saga's we can conclude that if you intend to complete every saga then these quests are worth:

    Code:
                              	Saga
    Epic Saga                  	Total
    =========================================
    Feast or Famine            	3
    A Cabal for One            	3
    Crucible                   	3
    Maze of Madness            	3
    Trial by Fire              	3
    The Madstone Crater        	3
    Foundation of Discord      	3
    A Cry for Help             	3
    The Prison of the Planes   	3
    Gianthold Tor              	3
    The Lords of Dust          	3
    Servants of the Overlord   	3
    The Spinner of Shadows     	3
    Beyond the Rift            	6
    Impossible Demands         	6
    The Unquiet Graves         	6
    The Lost Thread            	9
    The Battle for Eveningstar 	6
    Don't Drink the Water      	6
    In The Belly of the Beast  	6
    The House of Rusted Blades 	6
    The House of Broken Chains 	6
    The House of Death Undone  	6
    The Portal Opens           	6
    Trial by Fury              	9
    The Deal and the Demon     	9
    Reclaiming the Rift        	9
    Outbreak                   	3
    Overgrowth                 	3
    Thorn and Paw              	3
    The Druid's Curse          	6
    Detour                     	9
    Lost in the Swamp          	9
    A Stay at the Inn          	9
    Rest Stop                  	9
    The End of the Road        	9
    Friends in Low Places      	6
    A Lesson in Deception      	6
    The Thrill of the Hunt     	6
    Army of Shadow             	6
    Through a Mirror Darkly    	9
    The Tracker's Trap         	6
    Lines of Supply            	6
    Breaking the Ranks         	6
    A Break in the Ice         	6
    What Goes Up               	6
    				---
    				258
    So doing every quest in every saga is worth 258 points. So based on this post, if you do every saga on EH then you can spend 250 commendations to TR after a single run. This is considered a "small time investment" for a level 20 character?

    So assuming that you're still going ahead with 2000 commendations to Epic TR then you're still looking at 8 repetitions of every quest in a saga.

    So ignoring the "inefficient" Gianthold quests that are only worth 3 commendations per run, you would only run the new expansion quests which comes in at 228 commendations for doing those 38 quests. So you would just do those 9 times. So that's 342 quests to Epic TR.

    Or just spend whatever TP the Epic Heart ends up as when you put it in the Store.

    342 quests or a TP purchase.

    Not very subtle is it?

    EDIT: Oh yeah, and you do realise that of course this now means that as soon as you hit 20 then you will only run those quests on your way from 20 to 28. So all of that nice epic VON, Menechtarun, Red Fens, Carnival, Sentinels content just sits and gathers dust? Remind me again how this is promoting player choice and diversity? Even GH becomes meh because of it's low commendation value. And of course all raids are now worthless. But nobody runs raids any more and we shouldn't be trying to encourage them to ... right?
    Hm, I would think that playing through ALL the sagas on EH or part on EE one time should earn you an Iconic TR, and probably get you almost there for an Epic TR too. Because that way, you can count on doing most of the content, run a saga or 2 you enjoy 2 times to get other rewards, and then put in some more work to get that Epic TR in (you have to get the KARMA anyway, and probably counted on Saga XP stones for doing off-Destinies/spheres).

    For a Heroic TR, really it shouldn't even force you to play more than a single saga on Epic. We should have to option to run other content which we can do in the lvl from 19-21, not invest hours that would get us halfway up to lvl cap to earn it.

  8. #568
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    Ah okay, this makes sense now. So basically if you get 3 commendations per quest per saga on Epic Hard, then this means that based on the details of which quests fit into which saga's we can conclude that if you intend to complete every saga then these quests are worth:

    Code:
                              	Saga
    Epic Saga                  	Total
    =========================================
    Feast or Famine            	3
    A Cabal for One            	3
    Crucible                   	3
    Maze of Madness            	3
    Trial by Fire              	3
    The Madstone Crater        	3
    Foundation of Discord      	3
    A Cry for Help             	3
    The Prison of the Planes   	3
    Gianthold Tor              	3
    The Lords of Dust          	3
    Servants of the Overlord   	3
    The Spinner of Shadows     	3
    Beyond the Rift            	6
    Impossible Demands         	6
    The Unquiet Graves         	6
    The Lost Thread            	9
    The Battle for Eveningstar 	6
    Don't Drink the Water      	6
    In The Belly of the Beast  	6
    The House of Rusted Blades 	6
    The House of Broken Chains 	6
    The House of Death Undone  	6
    The Portal Opens           	6
    Trial by Fury              	9
    The Deal and the Demon     	9
    Reclaiming the Rift        	9
    Outbreak                   	3
    Overgrowth                 	3
    Thorn and Paw              	3
    The Druid's Curse          	6
    Detour                     	9
    Lost in the Swamp          	9
    A Stay at the Inn          	9
    Rest Stop                  	9
    The End of the Road        	9
    Friends in Low Places      	6
    A Lesson in Deception      	6
    The Thrill of the Hunt     	6
    Army of Shadow             	6
    Through a Mirror Darkly    	9
    The Tracker's Trap         	6
    Lines of Supply            	6
    Breaking the Ranks         	6
    A Break in the Ice         	6
    What Goes Up               	6
    				---
    				258
    So doing every quest in every saga is worth 258 points. So based on this post, if you do every saga on EH then you can spend 250 commendations to TR after a single run. This is considered a "small time investment" for a level 20 character?

    So assuming that you're still going ahead with 2000 commendations to Epic TR then you're still looking at 8 repetitions of every quest in a saga.

    So ignoring the "inefficient" Gianthold quests that are only worth 3 commendations per run, you would only run the new expansion quests which comes in at 228 commendations for doing those 38 quests. So you would just do those 9 times. So that's 342 quests to Epic TR.

    Or just spend whatever TP the Epic Heart ends up as when you put it in the Store.

    342 quests or a TP purchase.

    Not very subtle is it?

    EDIT: Oh yeah, and you do realise that of course this now means that as soon as you hit 20 then you will only run those quests on your way from 20 to 28. So all of that nice epic VON, Menechtarun, Red Fens, Carnival, Sentinels content just sits and gathers dust? Remind me again how this is promoting player choice and diversity? Even GH becomes meh because of it's low commendation value. And of course all raids are now worthless. But nobody runs raids any more and we shouldn't be trying to encourage them to ... right?
    /signed

    You really should "hire on" Deadlock as a freelance consultant because his presentation and understanding is always clear and to the point. To paraprhase Varg that would give you someone who understands numbers intimatily as well as has a way with word.

    I hope you consider adding a few more of the most knowledgeable and level headed players, like Deadlock, to Mournlands and run everything new by those players because you even begin to develop it. That sure would save alot of trouble, in particular if you enlisted their help in writing the presentations rather than buther it time and time again on your own. Oh, and part of that would be actually presenting the full idea rather than realeasing it piecemeal.

  9. #569
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    Default Yeah, in reality you get more than halfway up to cap before you can TR

    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    Not exactly.

    You need to be (base level -2) to actually get the quest from the quest giver. The quest can be shared to you by a party member to bypass this limitation.

    However to actually get into the quest, you can't be more than 4 levels below the quest level. I faced this issue yesterday when I PUGed with a level 23 character for Stormhorns. He could not enter the quests when I set them on EH, but could join EN fine.

    So, to get the quest, level -2 (level 25 for Storm Horns). To play the quest, level -4 from the quest modified level (23 to play EN, 24 EH, and 25 EE for Storm Horns).

    This means you CAN'T earn True Elite saga rewards in two sagas until you are at least level 25. Enjoy.
    Thanks Nibel, for correcting me there.

    As you mention, you won't be able to do Epic Gianthold on EH (and the 3/quest average mentioned is for EH) before you get going into epic play.

  10. #570
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    Might want to re-think the saga thing cause they are still broken. I did GH on several different characters and A cabal for one NEVER gets marked as being done no matter how many times I do it.

  11. #571
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    I thought i would just chime in here with this note.

    If each quest gave you 3 commendations in the end instead of in the saga you would have to run 83 quests to get a heroic heart of wood.

    To convert that to the current form, that means that each quest gives you 25 epic token fragments. This number seams very low compared to even poor token quests today.

    Might I make a suggestion? Instead of worrying about giving to many commendations overshoot it, give a LARGE number of commendations per saga completion (talking 200 here). TRing keeps people in the game and interested, you want to encourage this not make it difficult to TR.


    Summary:
    TR is good for game.
    Make TR easy to do!

  12. #572
    Community Member Satyriasys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vampiregoat69 View Post
    Might want to re-think the saga thing cause they are still broken. I did GH on several different characters and A cabal for one NEVER gets marked as being done no matter how many times I do it.
    Its a text error. Cabal = Crucible. Do that quest and it should complete.
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  13. #573
    Community Member Systern's Avatar
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    Just some food for thought...

    By tying Sagas to the TR experience, you've changed them from a potentially cool optional that we could take or leave...


    To Necropolis Flagging.
    To Old VoN Flagging.

    Ya know how much your players love(d) those, right?

  14. #574
    Community Member Robai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    There's active discussion here at Turbine about the binding status of Commendations of Valor.

    This is what we are tentatively moving to for the next Lamannia preview (which is decided days ahead of time, so the conversation is likely to keep moving and Lamannia will be out of date by then):

    Heroic True Heart of Wood: Costs 250 Commendations of Valor
    Binds to Character on Acquire

    This is not what we intend to ship with. However, we need to decide on whether to lower the cost should or change the Commendations to be Bind to Account instead of Character. (Or potentially both, as the exact cost is still under discussion, but for simplicity I'm pretending it's one or the other right now.)

    If the Commendations are BtA, we expect that most Commendations will be farmed by level-cap characters and passed to other characters, and that they will be earned much faster than if the Commendations are BtC and earned by lower level characters. We also believe there are legitimate reasons for both choices and why one or the other is better for gameplay or fun, many of which have been expressed by various players recently.

    We're of course happy to hear feedback on all aspects of Reincarnation or other upcoming changes, but if you have specific thoughts on whether you'd prefer BtA Commendations or a cheaper price for Heroic True Hearts of Wood, please let us know here in this thread!
    BtA wins absolutely in all cases, no matter what.
    If capped toons is a problem then you could make rewards similar to challenges (I don't like this, but if that's the price of being BtA I would go for that).

  15. #575
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    Quote Originally Posted by vampiregoat69 View Post
    Might want to re-think the saga thing cause they are still broken. I did GH on several different characters and A cabal for one NEVER gets marked as being done no matter how many times I do it.
    That's because A Cabal for One and The Crucible have titles switched around. Completing one is listed as completing the other, and vice-versa. I believe it was supposed to corrected with the upcoming U20.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arnhelm View Post
    The only partial explanation was in Producer Glin's post that opened this thread. He stated Tokens were too easy to get for elite players. The disparity of time between how long it took such players to get a heart vs how long it takes casual players to earn one was "balanced" by this new system.
    I truly hope a dev will come in and offer some additional insight beyond that explanation, for I cannot see how this move decreases the disparity. At this point in time, I can only see it widening the gap. I'd imagine a power gamer is more likely to own all of the content, will have better gear, more likely to level quickly, and will be able to tackle EE content. Even if they do not go after EE, they will be able to clear EH more proficiently then casual gamers.

    The only change here that I see is that, instead of how fast a power gamer can clear a quest vs. how fast a casual gamer can, it now becomes how fast a power gamer can clear a series of quests vs. how fast a casual gamer can. I am really hoping this is due to some lack of insight on my part, and that there were other reasons that will be brought to light with my inquiry.
    Anything can be explained by drunken wizards.

    "Hey! I got a piece of the +1 Butter Knife of Victory! Ah-oh, wait, wait. It's just a crummy, normal +1 dagger of ghostbane..."

  16. #576
    Community Member Yamato-San's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by faydingsun View Post
    There are many great ideas on these forums to improve DDO. However that is not really the main goal of Turbine, it is a business after all so lets talk profits.

    There are pushy ways to do business which may compel customers to make purchases but leave a negative impact on them. DDO is heading in that direction. It is really unnecessary as you have here a wonderful system already in place which could practically sell itself and become a much more popular game. Would you rather not have players spending money in excitement for what they are getting then bitterness for what they have to get?

    There are many features we have been begging to buy. Monster Manuals, more cosmetics, more storage, reagent bags, races, classes, housing, sex change, quests, RAIDS. These are just a few off the top of my head. If you would sell us what we want you wouldn't have to trick us into buying what we don't.

    DDO is one of the most unique and complex games I have played. The character creation system alone is the main draw for many people. Sadly most gamers have never heard of this game. Why do you not (modestly) advertise? Something simple and cheap, marketing yourself as the complex mmo or the most customizable or unique or action based combat. Any of these marketing points would be a big draw for people looking for such a game. Flaunt the strengths DDO has. There is a real niche market there for this type of game and DDO is the only place to find it.

    Stimulate the sales of adventure packs;

    While Shadowfell Conspiracy is very beautiful with great artwork and voice acting it is sadly not enough.
    Most People buy packs for 2 reasons, loot and xp. Both of witch cost you NOTHING to increase. Why don't you?

    What makes Adventure packs desirable;

    XP and Loot

    There is little to say about xp other than it should be increased if you want to make your adventure packs more enticing. If the new packs had something like von3 you would find Eveningstar much less of a ghost town.

    Loot and how it affects the sales of adventure packs;


    You have utterly destroyed the once brilliant and esteemed random loot system for no apparent reason. Not only is getting the same 4 suffixes a giant step backwards from what we knew and loved, the auction house is flooded with cheap random items that outclass most of the highest level named items. There goes any incentive to buy adventures for loot. Poor XP and meager loot have successfully rendered your new shiny expansion insignificant and undesirable regardless of it's quality.

    Revert random loot to how it used to be when MOTU launched. It was perfect. We had a plethora of unique and exciting effects, we had composed weapon affixes, we had clickies. It was fun, but now loot is boring and therefor the game is boring. Everything we loot now is the same; retributive, doublestrike, ghostbane, deadly or accuracy. We have yet to hear any dev comment as to why you would butcher such a core aspect of this game. Revert random loot and scale it to be slightly less powerful then named loot of the same level. You will once again incentivise people to buy adventures for the sexy named loot. That is one of the biggest draws to mmos, I cannot stress that enough. People love named loot in these games.

    Regarding the old packs, they were once the endgame epics. People would stay at 20, raid and farm for epic ingredients and all was wonderful. With the increase in level cap, 20 is nothing more than a pit stop. Those once sought after epic named items are nothing more then level 20 suboptimal named loot. Why do we still need to spend a year grinding for these ingredients when we are getting better random loot, regardless of how boring it is? If the old epic items dropped completed (like every other named item) it would add some value to these old packs. Another thing that made those packs attractive is the ability to work towards your reincarnation which is also being removed, further decreasing their value.

    Reincarnation

    A very tricky feature to quantify. On one hand its current popularity is mainly due to the lack of an endgame, on the other it is ingenious, innovative and unique to DDO. Actually one of the most brilliant features in the genre.

    Hearts of wood however remind me of sigils. They were removed because they were a roadblock to player retention. They created a false obstacle in front of players limiting the amount of time they could spend in the game. Hearts are now serving this purpose.

    Since the current loot mess has rendered raids quite pointless and the high level quests offering very little, there is nothing else to do at endgame currently which is only exacerbating the importance of reincarnating.
    Anything done to make the reincarnation process more difficult is going to limit the amount of time players remain customers.

    Instead you have chosen to monetize this feature with a very unpopular saga system. A system designed to sell not only hearts but adventure packs in a very underhanded manner. The community knows this, and the disdain is going to drive even more away. If the above insights about adventure packs were implemented The sales of all adventures would rise and there would be no cause to create such an unpopular system, the players would not hold resentment but respect and elation.
    This is an amazing first post and should be the blueprint for Turbine for guaranteed! success.

    What you are trying to implement with your saga approach sadly reminds me of a very bad street drug seller, who has never heard that the first dosage should be free.
    Let the players get cheap on the reincarnation path, once they are on the train, they will stay and want more.
    Never ever try to make the beginning an obstacle.

    I repeat:
    It's counterproductive to raise the cost (be it by TP costs, by time to grind, by pain to run unwanted quests)
    fewer people will reincarnate, the playerbase will shrink, your profit will shrink.
    Every reincarnation increases greatly the duration a player will stay in DDO and
    raises the chance for selling goodies like XP boosts.

  17. #577
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    Let's talk playstyle. I'm a serial PUGger - I log in, one of the first things I do is hit the social tab and find out who's offering groups for what. I enjoy this, I think it's a good way to play because you get to meet new people and it helps to keep the game looking healthy and active. It is, however, inefficient for completing quest chains. People come in to groups at different points, groups dissolve part way through chains, people need earlier quests completed, new groups that you need to play with to resume interrupted chains start earlier (or later) in the chain and may break up before they get caught up, etc. and as a result, you can end up duplicating or omitting missions even in short quest chains. Sagas are chains of quest chains, so can you imagine how much inefficiency there'll be for this sort of healthy, light-social playstyle under your proposals?

    You'd be encouraging me to play alone instead, because then I can run the quests in the right order...but I'd be missing out on a lot of what I love about the game, which is playing with other people. DDO has two big assets that most other games don't - a great LFM system and built in voice chat that people actually use. Please don't implement a system that's going to lead to frustration when using those features.

    Let's talk expensive BtA versus cheaper BtC. I think you're too focused on effort vs. reward. I see a different problem, which is that either way, I'm best off doing something unnatural. If it's a BtA system then I'm best off farming quest chains with a different character than the one I actually want to play and develop, and if it's BtC then I'm best off not TRing at all, but staying at 28 and farming quest chains until my eyes bleed, and then TRing multiple times on the back of that marathon slogfest. Neither method sounds attractive to me - it's the base design that's the issue. I know there would be issues to work out with quest ranges, etc. but how about rewarding me for playing content at level at least as an additional alternative?

    Finally, let's talk wilderness areas. One thing that seemed to be near universal regarding the feedback to Shadowfell was that the Stormhorns rock. I agree with this; you guys have been delivering pure gold in the arena of wilderness zone ever since Menance of the Underdark, with voiced journals, interesting random encounters, vastly improved graphics, etc. ...so why take this outpouring of nerdlove, and exclude wilderness zones from your new commendation system? People are giving you high marks for these beautiful areas, don't make me feel like I'm wasting my time by playing in 'em!

  18. #578
    Community Member Systern's Avatar
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    I'm kind of surprised that no one's mentioned this before...


    So, doing all 6 sagas on EH will get you close to the commendations needed for a Heroic heart. But hey, you had to go all the way to cap to get them, so why not get an Epic heart at the same time? At the present 2000 commendation requirement, that means time at cap farming the sagas 8+ times. There needs to be enough currency available to get both hearts within a reasonable amount of time.

    For a new character, they'll accumulate enough XP to more than max 3 destinies getting to level 28. By their 4th trip through an Epic + Heroic Total Recallarnation they'll be completely maxxed out on destinies which add to the bulk of an epic characters progression. It's mandatory farming at that point, enforced stagnation, and completely boring grind. Let alone an off-destiny grind for most of the lives. Players kvetch about getting 1.98mil xp in an off-destiny being unfun? What about 52.8 million xp in off-destinies? And that's just for the initial set of 12. God help any of the current Uber-completionists that want to go get the full 36 epic past lives.

    If the major incentive to reincarnation is to further develop your character and earn these past lives, 3/4 of the time an Uber-OCD-pletionist is going to be completely stagnant and bored pursuing them.

  19. #579
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    Default No sagas, no compromise

    To all those saying "it should take no more than [x] saga completions to get a heart", or pontificating on the comparative quest numbers between token acquisition and CoV rewards, I have this to say: please, please stop. Don't get sucked into the discussion unless you genuinely feel that sagas alone are a fair way to acquire hearts, because that's where that road leads. We know from bitter experience that the devs have selective perception when it comes to their pet ideas, and all they'll take away from these analyses by Worldcrafter, Darkrok and others - great though these breakdowns are for illustration purposes, and much as I appreciate the intent behind the effort - is that the idea is basically OK and it's just a matter of tweaking numbers.

    It's not OK, and it's not a matter of tweaking numbers.

    We should not be forced to run any sagas whatsoever in order to earn a heart. I'm not saying the game should be designed around soloists, but any intrinsic mechanic which effectively excludes those who play solo is completely unacceptable. Any mechanic which forces us to run arbitrary collections of content containing quests we hate (or - as in my case - that I simply cannot run because they take too long and I never get more than an hour online at a time) is completely unacceptable. TR'ing isn't "optional" for people in my circumstances any more; it's the only thing we have left that's both worth doing and possible. The day sagas are the only in-game way to acquire hearts is the day I cancel my sub and quit.
    I'm a snuggly, fluffy, cuddly-wuddly little rabbit.

    And if you call me a gamer grrrrl, I will reach down your throat, rip out your pancreas and feed it to my Rottweiler.

  20. #580
    Community Member lyrecono's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    Not exactly.

    You need to be (base level -2) to actually get the quest from the quest giver. The quest can be shared to you by a party member to bypass this limitation.

    However to actually get into the quest, you can't be more than 4 levels below the quest level. I faced this issue yesterday when I PUGed with a level 23 character for Stormhorns. He could not enter the quests when I set them on EH, but could join EN fine.

    So, to get the quest, level -2 (level 25 for Storm Horns). To play the quest, level -4 from the quest modified level (23 to play EN, 24 EH, and 25 EE for Storm Horns).

    This means you CAN'T earn True Elite saga rewards in two sagas until you are at least level 25. Enjoy.
    Most of my tr's are multiclassed and build to handle heroic content, at best they can handle EH, this would slow down my tring even more, forcing to run those tr's through epic content to reach lv 23/24 so they can actualy enter said quest is even worse.
    I refuse to be handheld by guildies/party members to get those com's, if i'm part of a group effort i need to contribute (in a positive way)
    I'm not running my tr's nor another toon to 28 so i can farm CoV's.
    I doesn't matter if they are bound to character or account.

    I WIL NOT RUN SAGA'S TO TR!

    I'm not asking for a quick fix nor a different number of coms to tr nor a different number of coms in the reward list,
    I WANT THIS NEW SYSTEM TO BE SCRAPPED!
    It is badly thought out and will make the servers even emptier, are you Dev's going for forced server mergers?

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