gotta to kick at the darkness til it bleeds daylight - B. Cockburn
Guild Leader - Order of the Silver Dragons
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i'm part way between a casual gamer and a power gamer. i play with both types and am an expert flower sniffer as well as a valued team member in harder content (no idea why, but they seem to enjoy having me along). it takes a very tempting goal to get me to put my nose on the grindstone and i am a LOT happier when there is a constant feeling of progress. the shroud was the first raid i farmed until the 20th reward was introduced, i now have a torc on my paly, yay.
i prefer to run a variety of quests over a single quest.
when i first tried epic quests before U14 i quite enjoyed the player created saga the PUGging scene created. a group would start for the easiest epic quest, then it would continue to progress through harder and harder quests as the PUG gelled together until it either stopped working or people ran out of time. this was an organic process and it just seemed to work well and feel right. my stash of tokens went from a measly handful from completing epics that were done just to see if i could to a nice stack that i could claim a reward for after farming the quests each day. the sense of progress and the fun actually saw me cycle alts through several such chains of quests in an evening. it got me playing more.
so, there is an old use case and something to strive for with the new system.
i understand the old system has been trivialized by the large increase in power our characters have, but here is a proposed change for you to consider.
reinstate epic tokens back to their former glory (ie in every single epic end chest). have the rewards related to character lvl vs quest lvl just as you do with renown to negate the trivialisation. have them as the main way to farm out hearts of all types. then give us the sagas as an optional reward just as they are doing for exp and renown today. this gives us more choices, we can use sagas to boost our exp gain, renown gain, the odd skill gain or heart gain depending on what is the most important to us while still making progress towards all goals. we can use sagas to knock off a few quests we might not have otherwise done for the extra reward waiting for us if we do. the power gamers can crunch the number and find the best set of quests to farm for their time, and the other players can just play through the content they feel comfortable in.
i like sagas as they are on live today, they have prompted me to run quests i would have otherwise skipped and it's made me play more. i like that i don't feel obliged to take a certain reward and would dearly like to keep that feeling of free choice. that choice would feel forced if it was the main way to earn a heart. change it to be an optional way to earn a heart just as it is for renown and exp and the saga system will meet its goal of persuading us to run a larger variety of quests and make us happy.
www.legendsguild.eu A light RP guild that's moved from Keeper in Europe to Thelanis
Play DDO in 3D, for fweeeee! how to use coloured 3D glasses with DDO.
East? West? Which way's that? Putting East and West back on the (mini)map
Tired of chasing blue dots? Find a speed or striding item, vets are hooked on them and you will be too!
I've said it before - no one is opposed to a new system. They are opposed to a new system with a host of constraints on their play style and enjoyment.
The user base has a few objectives requirements they'd like to see achieved, and lots of proposals that hit these - but I wouldn't be against other things Turbine could do to meet the basic objectives and this is why people keep coming up with the same things. Ultimately though, the goals are the same.
Do not dictate which content I have to run, I want to make that choice myself.
Sagas do not empower this, in fact they constrain your choices and behavior forcing you to run what you don't want to run. With tokens currently, you have a selection of things you could run - you could run the same single quest over and over again if you chose. There are a number of things that could facilitate this.
- Drop comms in place of tokens (and comm of heroism in place of greater tokens) - in general, make them drop in other places besides Sagas
- Provide a mechanism to convert from one to the other
- BTA allows this flexibility to farm on one character, then give heart to other (many do this today)
Provide a way I can hit 20 and heroic TR relatively immediately.
I don't think people would be bugged if Epic or Iconic hearts had to be earned in epic play, because the cap there is 28.
- Comms drop in raids (and I like SirValentine's thought that heroic raids are included in this ... VoN/DQ get some but Abbot, VoD, HoX, ToD, Reaver get more) - allowing the possibility for a character to have what they need for a heart once they hit 20 if they concentrate on raiding on the way to cap.
- BTA, so you can farm on one character and give to another.
But essentially, it still just boils down to
- Let me choose what content I run, don't force me to run stuff I don't like (and Sagas, being big, are nearly guaranteed to force someone to repeat things they don't like if they want/need multiple of the Saga rewards)
- Let me heroic TR at 20 near-immediately (and not once I've hit enough Sagas for the heart and I'm already 24 ... let me farm on someone else, or give me a way to get them if they must remain BTC during my heroic life)
Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane
But it's been broken and fixed a couple times now, so take that as you will. It's still a backhanded they take one of the only FTP options of earning tokens and cease them dropping because they are "part of a saga".The quests "The Lords of Dust" and "Servants of the Overlord" should now always have enemies of proper CR on all epic difficulties.
CC Casting Druid: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...C-Summer-Build
Shiradi Wiz Plan for 1st Lifers: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...r-First-Lifers
LE Capable Int Assassin - U29: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...Assassin-Build
Warlock DC Caster: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ld-Blast-Build
Several characters on Sarlona all starting with "Rand" in the Guild "Guardians of House Cannith". My main four characters are Randowl (20 Warlock EA DPS Build), Randslar (Bard 14 / Fighter 4 / Rogue 2 Swashbuckler), Randek (Druid CC Caster 17/Fvs 3) and Randomall (Rogue 20 assassin).
I'm a premium player who has not made it to endgame yet, so perhaps my perspective is a little different from that of quite a few others.
I'm expecting quite a learning curve when I (finally) get to level 20 for the first time. I was looking forward to TRing my first character to reach level 20, once I accumulated the needed tokens. It's a carrot that seems relatively far away, but I'm OK with that.
I'm happy with the current system, in which I can learn how to run one quest at a time to accumulate ingredients needed to make a heroic TR heart. I'm not in any way invested in Sagas, the way the devs seem to be. I'm not thrilled with the idea that I might need to learn how to run a set of missions at level 20+, before getting my first(!) ingredient to make a token (or whatever name you choose), as that pushes the carrot noticeably further away for reasons that look arbitrary. I'm not keen about being pushed into running content that I may not like, to get a reward for which under the current system I don't need to do that. I'm even less happy to see that I might need to level up in the 20+ range for a while before finally getting to do a heroic TR.
I see this as a "mea culpa" moment. Somebody needs to swallow their ego and apologize, even if that apology never reaches the players' ears, for coming up with such a badly thought out and badly communicated idea. TR keeps the game alive for a lot of players and it's not a good idea to make the "gate" to do it onerous or unpleasant to pass through.
If you're going to remove the tokens, add the CoV's to the quests to replace them.
Still doesn't address the most important issues to my mind:
1) CoV's should be BtA!!!!!!!!! (I can't stress this enough!!!!)
2) CoV's need to be available from more content than a VERY limited subset of quests
So basically, Tokens have been worn down to a way to earn Fear and Blindness Immunity augments by grinding Time is Money.
I read a lot of posts tieing the problem with Sagas to the poor quality of FR content. I disagree with that. We asked for, we begged for, an FR expansion. The current FR quests are actually VERY cool. Some really really well designed quests, interesting story arcs, and gorgeous explorer areas. The problem with the FR content is the LOOT. Except for a small handful of nice items, the FR loot on the whole is terrible. Random effects are TERRIBLE. So the main reason to avoid FR content is not that it's bad, it's that there's virtually no incentive to play it. And forcing Saga completions in FR content isn't helping. Fix FR loot and you may have people return to playing the content. And that includes developing the Sschindy and Underdark explorers (as promised, then abandoned!!). More rares, more named items, more side quests.
Quit pushing Sagas and return to ACTUAL development.
Originally Posted by Towrn
Now i understand you may be vip or buy boxes, pots etc but those money guys dont care. They figure if you're willing to spend money on those things, you've got more to give. Maybe they're right, maybe they're wrong
So, everyone seems to be really displeased with two particular things that I've noticed so far. The first is that these commendations will be BtC. Another is the sheer number of commendations you'll need to acquire to even gather a Heroic TR. I've read that you all seem to be lowering these numbers, but I wanted to toss in my own ideas anyway.
Commendations will be available through Sagas. Why not live up to the name of "Saga" in the first place? The current system has fragments of tokens, and then the tokens themselves. Why not do the same. The fragments could be "pages" of a "Saga of Valor" type book. X number of those books would then be used to trade in for the X Hearts of TR. You could simply toss the pages into non-saga quests, and make Saga completions the way to get the book. The majority who regularly TR are already used to either grinding out 20 tokens or 2000 fragments. Make Saga completions the means of getting the whole book, and everything else getting the pages.
Likewise, you could add more Sagas from the old content, for Heroic and Epic levels. We already have varying chains of quests. Why not make every pack have some sort of saga attached to it as well? For example, you could lump together The Kobold's New Ringleader along with Water Works and STK. You'd just scale the rewards down incredibly because they're low level, and pose little threat. What with Venn mentioning Shan-To-Kor as his dying words, you could have the harbor master as the NPC for the quest.
In any case, we already have a bit of epic content from Eberron as well. Only one pack actually is exclusively Eberron as far as Saga, and now it's a mandatory purchase. Why not give similar perks to older content as well? Why not have an update for say... The Sands? The Carnival? Red Fens? If you're going to ditch the tokens system, at least make the new one more viable to non-FR content as well. The older gear could use an upgrade as well, I think. You're already ditching the Scroll / Shard / Seal system as well, so why keep the older one on older content as well?
I think the goal of Turbine has just become explicit (even if implicitly so....).
They were told from On High, that Free to Players should no longer be able to TR. From here on out, Premium content will be required for TRing. (However, it is still possible to "buy" that premium content with favor reward TP.)
I seriously doubt that anyone that ever ventures anywhere near these forums has the authority to countermand that decision. It will stick.
And personally.... I have no problem with that. There is a huge amount of game out there for free. TRing doesn't have to be a part of that (although with favor grinding, it still can be). They get their money's worth.
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Kalener (Monk) Renelak (backup band) Raoull (Mr. McStabby) Kaleray (laser heals) Kalrah (xbow rogue)
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The token system was fine for buying TR hearts. What could have been accomplished if they used those people hours starting something brand new like another raid or more quest content, rather than revamping something already in place and working? This is the second time now that resources have been allocated to changing how the token system works since it was rolled out in 2009. Instead of replacing already working systems, start enhancing the quality of the game by creating new things IN ADDITION TO rather than REPLACING the old.
DDO is not a clone MMO where the old content is invalidated the minute a new expansion is released. Theres no reason to invalidate the old content by taking reasons for running it away from the players. If anything needs to be changed about the old content, its the modernization of the loot acquired in said content. Give us MORE reasons to run the older stuff, not LESS. Requiring saga completion to earn TRs and making that system replace the token system gives us less reason to run the older content.
Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.
Either Glin, Rowan and Fernando just don't care behind closed doors about what we say. Or,
They aren't being given the correct message.
It's tough to justify that they aren't being given the message when all they have to do is read the forums.
The more I take time to read what they have written, discuses them with friends in-game and out, the message I'm see more clearly is as such:
"Eventually (SOON) it's going to be our way or the highway in regards to your concerns about Reincarnation and HoW acquiring."
And scores of people are choosing the HIGHWAY!
This isn't just about BTC v BTA. Or Tokens disappearing. It's about how important decisions regarding this game are being made. It boggles my mind.
Also the most important question that keeps coming up is:
Sagas a going be obviously be the dominant vehicle to acquiring COV's. That's become obvious. You say their functionality is of high importance, yet they have been down more often than not since their introduction. What plans are in place, if any, to accommodate if a quest requires closure or another exploit occurs. With possibility of multiple Saga's being shut down because of ONE quest closure (some quests are out for months at a time!), this is of utmost importance but no one can say anything other than, "We know". Not acceptable.
Last edited by Drwaz99; 10-22-2013 at 12:36 PM.
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