Thelanis - Officer of Reinos Olvidados: Henkyh, Neghi, Konokka, Kufei, Bartolomew, Rovinh, Artinata
The major problem with saga rewards is that three sagas on the list requires epic Wheloon quests, that are level 26 base. On elite they are considered level 28 quests. And you can't even enter the quest if you are not level 24. This means that until you level up to 24, you are limited to the MotU saga. Even the Gianthold saga requires level 22 to be able to play on elite.
For people that want to Heroic TR at 20, this is a major drawback.
The ONLY way to avoid this drawback to the playerbase that like to TR at 20 is either giving us some sagas that can be run on base level 20-22 quests (like most Eberron epics), or make Commendations of Valor Bound to Account. Personally, I prefer the BtA option because that incentives people to keep their alts active. One of the major reasons for the outcry for the removal of Twelve hearts was because of BtC/BtA status on the currency.
Currently, you had to run 15~60 quests on any difficulty to get your 20 tokens to TR. You need to make the new currency match those numbers to avoid other major outcry. If currently 36 quests awards 5 saga rewards, you need to make those enough that one full elite run awards one heart, or two normal runs get you there (72 vs 60). Any benchmark higher than that is literally unnaceptable.
Last edited by nibel; 10-22-2013 at 06:35 AM. Reason: Currently, not previously. System is still up.
Amossa d'Cannith, Sarlona, casually trying Completionist (12/14) [<o>]
Almost-never-played-alts: Arquera - Chapolin - Fabber - Herweg - Mecanico - Tenma
I want DDO to be a better game. Those are my personal suggestions on: Ammunition, Archmage, Combat Stances, Deities, Dispel Magic, Epic Destiny Map, Fast Healing, Favor, Favored Enemy, Half-elf Enhancements, Monk Kensai, Monk Stances, Past Life, Potency, Potions, Ranger Spells, Summons, Tiered Loot.
You said you wanted to keep Heroic and Epic separate since you started it like that with MOTU ... why then are you introducing a currency that is both heroic and epic?
Heroic Heart of Wood should be earned through heroic play, Epic Heart of Wood through epic play.
Right now, a F2P player can get tokens for hearts from daily challenges, and also from the F2P Epic Lords of Dust chain. Though I don't like it, I do understand if you don't have F2P folks as your priority. HOWEVER:
Right now, a VIP, you know, those Very Important customers of yours who pay you money every month, can get tokens for hearts from a huge variety of content, EVEN IF THEY DID NOT PURCHASE EXPANSIONS.
Comms only from Sagas, and Sagas that include EXPANSION content screws over your VIPs. You have...only 1, I think, Epic Saga that does not include Expansion content. Do you really expect your VIPs to do nothing but run every single Epic Gianthold quest over and over, not just for Heroic TR, but also for Iconic and Epic Reincarnation? VIPs MUST have more ways to get these Comms.
TL;DR: Do not make Sagas a requirement for TR'ing. I will not play them. I will not spend extra money to buy the heart. Instead I will spend the same amount of money somewhere else.
I'm a snuggly, fluffy, cuddly-wuddly little rabbit.
And if you call me a gamer grrrrl, I will reach down your throat, rip out your pancreas and feed it to my Rottweiler.
I understand wanting to go to a single currency. But that begs the question, why create a new currency (Comm's) when they had a previous one? They can't answer this one publicly because they have already lied about their intentions. A currency does what ever the authority wants it to do in case Turbine wasn't aware of it.
Thank You Glin for working on communication, It is greatly valued that you do. And a big thank you to Cordovan and Tolero for enduring the player rage during the weekend to follow what was being posted.
That HoW for Heroic TR will be (for now) available as is currently on Live is a VERY good and needed step.
As for the changes:
1. Yes, I like the idea of Sagas, and I do understand why they incorporate the newest content (both because its easier to add new stuff to a new system than to go through old quests to add them and because naturally Turbine wants to promote its newer content).
They do need a viable way to check on our completion status in another way than to go up the the NPC wherever that is in the worlds, and talk to them. A tab in the compendium would be a good way. I do like what people have offered, that the saga NPCs would be in the Hall of Heroes, because that would make them a natural way to start out your questing, look at overall progress, lvling up with trainers in a side room maybe, etc. Maybe add a way to get to our guild ships from there too?
As for the Hall of Heroes - It would be nice to have a message board up in there with things like congratulations to people finishing their completionist, guilds getting to lvl 80 etc, to give it a nice Hall of Fame feel as well and make it more lively inside.
What the Sagas are seriously lacking though is a more gripping story arc to bind them in. Most strings of quests have a really nice story to them, but Sagas feel too much like they are thrown together without that. And if we want Sagas to become what people look for when choosing what quests to do, it would be a great shame if it doesn't see sagas including the older quests, maybe entwining with the Favor system, where instead of a favor reward giver we do several quests for that house and the saga is a guideline towards gathering that house's favor - we would get favor, you can add nice rewards for reaching favor lvls where there are currently only "done, but we have no reward figured out" messages, and off course it could do nicely for us to work towards things like TR-ing if you want to tie that in with Sagas.
It should stay ONE of the ways to earn enough in game currency to get a Heart of Wood though, not the ONLY viable way.
So - 1. make the Sagas better, more rounded off and gripping stories
2. bring in Sagas with the older and very nice content already in the game
Making Commendations of Valor the target single currency is a good Idea. Do it over time, in phases, and replace old and now no longer much used things too in one go. It would need to be BtA though, because otherwise its far to limiting if one has any alts they run.
I play most of my time with some friends who play less than I do, and then with guildmates on 3 servers. I also play with my son a bit, but he never got above a couple of lvls (as a 10yo there is a lot to compete with DDO). I want to have 1-2 characters on those 3 servers that I will want to run epic content with, meaning that he/she has to have the gear for not being a burden on my party while doing so. These characters can earn CoV towards TR-ing. Other alts will serve to play with my son, or to play with my friends - these will be somewhere in heroic play and never see enough game time in epics to have a viable chance at getting together enough CoV for a Heroic True Heart. That is why having the Comms (and/or hearts) BtC will not work at all.
I am probably fine with having players earn Epic hearts as well as Iconic hearts from completing epic sagas, as its likely people will be playing them anyway to get to lvl 28, which they need for their ETR and ITR. But it really should be enough to do 2-4 sagas over the time to earn it, but to make it quality play time for all of us, we must have more sagas covering Ebberon only packs and not force players to go into FR if they want to ETR (I guess for ICR it makes some sense to stay there, apart for Bladeforged).
For HEROIC True Reincarnation to have to run EPIC Sagas - where is the logic in that? The character goes up from Lvl 1 to lvl 20 and then I want to change to a different class by doing a HTR. That means, that I should be able to work towards earning a Heroic HoW by doing HEROIC sagas, maybe a lot of them but still Heroic.
Because If you want me to do multiple EPIC sagas, that would in effect mean that I have to run quests of at least lvls 22-24 at to be able to TR (the lowest lvl epic sagas) - possibly multiple times. So how would one do that on a character that was not built to go above lvl 20? Ask guildies to let me pike it out while I am at lvl 20???. Or do you want to force us to play at least up to about lvl 24?
Well that sounds better but i'll still be in wait and see mode, especially for the new values.
Oh and someone metioned here to add raids to sagas, please don't do that, that would just lock players like me out of the sagas, instead add commendation drops directly to epic raids.
And one more thing, i don't like this spread out people in quests by putting mandatory rewards into sagas tbh. I'll run the quests i enjoy if i feel too forced to run content i don't want to run or in a shape i don't want to that's probably a good way to get me to quit too.
Last edited by Pandir; 10-22-2013 at 05:59 AM.
as for the quests themselves, i'd like to see all epic quests allow us to work towards goals such as TRing. i assume this will come in the form of sagas for ever epic quest pack, so maybe the tokens of the twelve will stay until you have enough saga NPC's rolled out?
a clean up of the system would be nice, i'm sure you've seen by now players frustration as each update releases a new type of item to collect with already overflowing bags. even worse when the new items don't fit into a bag! so if you can consolidate several item types together while maintaining balance then i think that will be a good step forwards.
www.legendsguild.eu A light RP guild that's moved from Keeper in Europe to Thelanis
Play DDO in 3D, for fweeeee! how to use coloured 3D glasses with DDO.
East? West? Which way's that? Putting East and West back on the (mini)map
Tired of chasing blue dots? Find a speed or striding item, vets are hooked on them and you will be too!
Ok, great that tokens are staying for now.
For the future, here is what I think:
I hate tomb of tormented. Hate. I'm not kidding. Even though I have no problem with the other necro 3 quests, and cursed crypt gives great xp, I try my best not to have to run Tormented. I sometimes even pay people high value items to run it for me.
If suddenly someone made running tomb of tormented mandatory to the natural progress of the game, playing this game would start to be displesant for me. And I would quit.
I also hate, from a lesser degree, that swimming necro 2 quests. It really displease me to run that one.
I haven't run all the epic quests for now. But I might hate, say, Through a Mirror Darkly and say the house of husted blades. this means 5 out of 6 sagas. If I also hate, say, crucible, that 6 out of 6. This means I mandatory have to run quests I hate to progress in the game....
This would kill the entire game for me. Even if I do like all the other quests in the game, I'm still locked on progressing by the quests I hate. This means I hate this game as a whole, and not just 3 quests.
I could, of course, pay to skip those quests. But that makes as much sense as buying a bazzilion astral shards and getting daily dice xp until I get to 20. What is the point if you are not actually playing the game?
There is not enough diversity of sagas to make viable for them to be mandatory. There is currently, according to the wiki, 388 quests in this game, and hating 3 out of 388 means you hate all sagas. If sagas are mandatory for the game progress, this means hating the game.
I don't have a problem with people earning their Hearts through outdated epic content, because it's fun, it encompasses a wide range of stories and environments and even playstyles, eg, challenges. Even if it's not optimal or particularly challenging, it has points of interest, such as the old epic loot which was designed at a time when progression was horizontal and often features unusual properties rather than simple number inflation.
I would have a problem with your proposed fix to this non-problem, because it cuts down the variety of content that I'll be likely to get groups to play, and risks driving away the free and premium players who help to fill out the groups that I play in across all the level ranges.
Furthermore, while I like sagas, all but one of the existing sagas are essentially for the same content. It's the "Running Around Eveningstar" sagas with five different contacts. I enjoy running around Eveningstar (it's beautiful and has lots of strong quests), but I also enjoy running around the Red Fens, and the Sands, and playing the Phiarlan Carnival. If you so strongly object to people playing this outdated content, why not change this into a wholly positive experience and just update more of that content, as you did with Gianthold? I love epic Gianthold, as I'm sure many people do.
Look at the sections I bolded ... <sarcasm>I can definitely see how you're going to encourage people to play a variety of content!</sarcasm> 36 quests comprise 5 sagas? Why the overlap? A saga is something that tells a story. In fact, definition #3 from the Merriam-Webster dictionary:. So, shouldn't the quests involved in a saga be somehow related? One thing I noticed from looking at the quest lists from the various sagas is there really is no story telling involved. Just somebody decided "We want them to run these quests more. I know! Let's randomly package them together and call it sagas!".a long detailed account
As for the part in blue, why penalize the people who either chose not to exploit Shears of Fate or did not know about the exploit? So what if some people are able to grind 20 tokens in a few hours while others take days? I am one of those for whom it takes days and I enjoy the journey. I don't enjoy Devil Assault and rarely run it, but I very much enjoy the House D, P, and K epics. I used to run Claw of Vulkoor on my rogue until I ransacked the quest exp (and now I can run it FOREVER! YAY!). I solo stealth that, Bargain of Blood (in spite of your attempt to trap me in the lever room!), and Tide Turns. There are people who can grind out levels 1 to 20 in a matter of days and yet it takes me a month or more. Should we slow those people down who either have more time, are more dedicated to the leveling, or both? No, you say? So, why penalize the people who take longer to get their tokens? Who cares? Your players do not care that it takes some people longer to get their tokens than others. Just as your players do not care it takes some people longer to get back to 20 after TRing. This is the way the world works and people understand it - especially since it is a game and people play it to have fun. As long as your players are having fun, why mess with that?
As far as the saga rewards, I don't want to have to choose between guild renown, experience, tomes, or commendations. The reason why is simple: If I want to TR, then that means I MUST take commendations EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. Don't force that on me. I was looking forward to running sagas eventually (not frequently, but here and there) for the extra renown I could get for my guild (or, sometimes, the extra experience). I suppose I am probably your target market for this change because I am more likely to purchase a heart of wood from the store, but that would only be a once a year purchase - *at most*. Currently, I can just TR when I want to and it is guaranteed I am going to purchase Sovereign Experience Elixirs, slayer boosts, gold seal hirelings and other stuff from the store. So, you're getting a couple hundred dollars a year from me on top of my subscription. Slow down my TRing and you'll be getting less. Scare enough people away from the game and you'll get zero - because if there is nobody in the game world but me and a handful of other people, why would I stay?
- Quijonn on Ghallanda, Triple Completionist ---> 3350 HP Unbuffed ---> 3405 HP Unbuffed ---> 7447HP Buffed (17,693HP total) ---> 130 CON
- Monster Manual, Known Issues ---> <string table error; tableDID [0x00000000] token [0x00000000]> ---> All Epic Quests EH and EE, XP/Min, Comms/Min
- The Stormreach Campaign--->The Stormreach Campaign Blog--->Enhancements in PDF format ---> Saga's simplified
- Quality of Life Fixes
Have you considered this? Now that you MUST take valor in order to TR, you have effectively stopped most players from choosing any other rewards in the Saga list.
Running Sagas for the end rewards was nice. Forcing us to run them for valor is not nice.
Add another voice to BTA instead of BTC.
This would give you a unified new currency system, keep old Epics relevant, and take care of returning players.
I'm going to be starting my 18th life this Friday (first one as a completionist as well I must say as well.) I plan on doing a lot of epic TRing as well, since TRing is about the most fun part of this game. however I would rather not run sagas over and over to get the ability to Epic TR.
I like the ability to run whatever quest I want, or if I want to grind epic tor over and over to get to 28 (and get some gear I want) at the same time, I should have the ability to do so.
Ok, I'm coming in late and I didn't bother to read the whole thread, so bear with me if I just repeat what other said.
First off, thanks for finally answering...
Though it and the acknowledgement that there was a problem should have come way way way earlier.
By the above paragraphs you are trying to justify the tie to the Sagas.
If you want to do something to alleviate our concerns make the Crappy BTC Thing drop in Chests in quest. ( end quest chest like the Tokens right now would be ideal )
You can also keep them as Saga Reward if you want.
The whole point being that people do not run sagas, we run quests, eventually quest chains when they are needed for flagging, Sagas are just a bonus for us in our gameplay, it's not an objective and never will be.
We play for the Fun, we don't want to have to do painful quests just so that we can get our Crappy BTC Things for our next life, as such we play quests where we are having fun.
They have almost always been the final values in game. It has been the case for many years now. This time we are not going to let it drop, we want exact values before it goes live.
Or if you go the way I suggested above ( drop in chests ), make the Crappy BTC Thing drop in End chests at the same rate as the Tokens, and make the Heroic True Heart Cost the same price as it costs right now.
Saga’s have been intermittently off since they were introduced this summer. We approached this system with much consideration for delivering something this important, so it is not taken lightly, and we are focused on making sure that Sagas remain available for players who have already started engaging with them, even before the commendations were “the new thing”.
Sagas are something new you added on top of quests and quest chains supposedly to make it more new players friendly, If there is new players in this almost 8 year old game. Old players (those that are interested in TR, as they have been doing it for a long time now) don't play saga, or use them just as an added bonus when they eventually complete one.
As stated above we don't really care about the name of the currency, as long as it drops in the same amount and in the same locations than the Tokens and it costs the same amount to get an Heroic Heart of Wood.
If you want to fully deprecate the tokens you need to address the Seal/Scroll/Shard problem,and the only way to address it is to open the scroll exchange to all the scrolls and to extend it to shards and seals.... Then you will be able to fully deprecate the Tokens and removed them... but if you try to get rid of them without addressing the Old Epic Items you will have another sit-in on Wayfinder really fast.
And as you now have stated that you are going to deprecate the Tokens Officially, you really need to come out and tell us what the plans are for the Seals/Shards/Scrolls Old Epic Items. ( and please NO RANDOM crappy powers on them )
On G-Land : Flavilandile, Blacklock, Yaelle, Millishande, Larilandile, Gildalinde, Tenalafel, and many other...
Glad Turbine listened to the feedback.
There are a couple of things worth considering.
If people don't run quests because of bad loot or xp that's what has to be fixed. I know Turbine is addressing this already.
The current token system allows you to progress towards your TR while greatly gaining xp. You can get enough tokens by simply running VON3, VON5-6, Wiz King, et al, once a day. Those quests are run by everyone and not just token farmers because they yield great xp / minute. The people I know who are running sagas do so because the vast majority of quests are good xp / minute, or give a chance for a (formerly, heh) high value item like a green scale (namely, the LoD - Darkening - City of Drow - Demonweb chain), or both, so even if there's a mediocre quest in between the xp reward pays off. The new system effectively removes xp rewards from sagas.
Another concern is that many chains that are now run solely for fun / gear, where efficiency is obviously a concern but not the top priority, will be run exclusively for comms / minute. I don't need to tell anyone what TRing and BB have done to the lvl 1-20 PUG scene. What the proposed changes might do is extending the TR LFM frenzy up to level 28.
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